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SlipUp posted:That's cool. I was making a mockery of Islamophobes by applying the same criticisms they level against Islam on to Christianity, hoping to shock them into the revelation of how bullshit it is. I don't think any Christian should feel like they need to specifically condemn this one incident, or that a particular regressive branch of Christianity is representative of all Christians. Sorry if I got ya riled up. ah sorry, i completely missed that.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:04
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The same criticisms of Islam apply to Christianity in America because they're both irredeemable garbage and preach poison. The current stream of right wing drivel getting barfed up about Islam is applicable to the Mike Huckabee crowd. The believers are pretty much just distinguishable from the taliban by their weight.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:44
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I think is pretty lame to turn this thread into "Awful Religion Olympics". Humm... the thing about islam being worse than other religions is not even important. Theres rational reasons to hate islam even if other religions where worse. Maybe I am not innocent here... and I started it trying to fight the "all religions are equal" western dogma. A fight for somebody better than me, should not have challenged that tabbo. Tei fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 09:40
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Tei posted:Humm... the thing about islam being worse than other religions is not even important. Theres rational reasons to hate islam even if other religions where worse. See that's where you're wrong. Even I don't "hate" Islam or Christianity. I don't care about them. Let people believe in whatever stuff makes them happy, let them entertain any kind of magical thinking, let them have any culture. What I hate is that they have an influence over politics though, and I believe that whatever we do we must not let religious morals or religious "truths" dictate or get in the way of policy.
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Nov 28, 2015 10:12
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Flowers For Algeria posted:See that's where you're wrong. Even I don't "hate" Islam or Christianity. I don't care about them. Let people believe in whatever stuff makes them happy, let them entertain any kind of magical thinking, let them have any culture. What I hate is that they have an influence over politics though, and I believe that whatever we do we must not let religious morals or religious "truths" dictate or get in the way of policy. (not a direct reply to your post) It would be cool if we agree on a strict separation of religion and education. Sometimes people drop the idea that religion must be in the schools because parents want it. But schools don't exist to make parents happy, they "customer" of schools are the students and society. They exist despite parents. When "forced schooling" was introduced was despite the desired of parents. Some farmer parents did not wanted their children to go to school (why would a farmer need math? or learn to read?). Mixing education and religion could be what is best for parents, but is not what is best for society or students. Democracy is a bad framework to solve this problem, because parents vote and students often don't vote. So politicians are going to do what is best for parents, loving students over what is best for them, and what is best for the whole society. Tei fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 10:21
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Woolie Wool posted:Become a rented Negro and promote the subordination of black people through respectability politics and patronizing speeches. I can think of at least one significant impediment to sedanchair taking that particular course of action. Mandy Thompson posted:Fundamentalism is a backlash against racism and colonialism. Daesh is a creation of western powers as was the Taliban. Non-white people don't just stand around silently when there isn't a white person whose presence compels them to act. Fundamentalist movements in Islam predate colonialism and fundamentalist movements in modern history have emerged and developed in response to the internal social and political dynamics of Muslim countries that have nothing to do with the West. What sort of western imperialism were the Kharijites a response to?
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Nov 28, 2015 11:05
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Churches are Nazi party HQs in the US- a disloyal fifth column working to destroy America. The preist class has historically been fascist as gently caress and should be liquidated, but we won't do it. I mean, just look at the entire notion of one god and no other. It's incompatible with democracy. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 28, 2015 13:26
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The Insect Court posted:I can think of at least one significant impediment to sedanchair taking that particular course of action. And Puritanism and Pentecostalism are identical and emerged for the same reasons. This is why the term "Islamic fundamentalism" as applied to jihadist movements is a bad one, because it opens the door to the kind of mindless response where all Islamic subgroups that are "fundamentalist" (read:assholes) are identical in such a way as to obscure any understanding of why they exist and why people support them, much as if some jackass was to equate Puritanism and Charismatic Christianity.
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Nov 28, 2015 16:09
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Flowers For Algeria posted:See that's where you're wrong. Even I don't "hate" Islam or Christianity. I don't care about them. Let people believe in whatever stuff makes them happy, let them entertain any kind of magical thinking, let them have any culture. What I hate is that they have an influence over politics though, and I believe that whatever we do we must not let religious morals or religious "truths" dictate or get in the way of policy. Religion was also a primary driving force to removing segregation in the 60s. It can work both ways. How is "freedom" not just 'magical' thinking.
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Nov 28, 2015 17:57
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NNick posted:Religion was also a primary driving force to removing segregation in the 60s. It can work both ways. How is "freedom" not just 'magical' thinking. Conventionally, "magical thinking" refers to certain specific approaches to the world, generally those that involve treating symbolic or semiotic relationships as material ones and rejecting empiricism (these are not how magic is actually understood to work in traditional societies). For many internet atheists, it's a meme that refers to any and all religions, except those graciously designated as acceptable by the speaker.
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Nov 28, 2015 18:49
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NNick posted:Religion was also a primary driving force to removing segregation in the 60s. It can work both ways. How is "freedom" not just 'magical' thinking. This is magical thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking magical thinking is atributing to magic everything around you,when you could attribute it to normal natural laws Tei fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 18:56
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Tei posted:Humm... the thing about islam being worse than other religions is not even important. Theres rational reasons to hate islam even if other religions where worse. there are no rational reasons to hate anyone or anything, because hate is an emotion. don't dress up irrational behavior as rationality, that's illogical
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Nov 28, 2015 19:12
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Potential BFF posted:The same criticisms of Islam apply to Christianity in America because they're both irredeemable garbage and preach poison. The current stream of right wing drivel getting barfed up about Islam is applicable to the Mike Huckabee crowd. The believers are pretty much just distinguishable from the taliban by their weight. Which is why it's pathetic seeing people coming in here to attack the practice of "sharia" in the United States. While they claim to preach secularism, they're actually playing right into the hands of Huckabee and his lot, if only through ignorance of how sharia courts and other methods of religious arbitration actually function. They have no serious policy or reform recommendations because they are merely grasping for any available line-of-attack , their criticisms are devoid of substance and driven by vague feelings of hatred and fear. Those opposing Sharia in this thread should stop to inspect who their allies are in this fight. Fine upstanding characters like David Yerushalmi, who drafted many state bills banning sharia. He's an associate of Pam Geller and Terry Jones the Koran burning pastor, with charming opinions like the following: quote:There is a reason the founding fathers did not give women or black slaves the right to vote. You might not agree or like the idea but this country’s founders, otherwise held in the highest esteem for their understanding of human nature and its affect [sic] on political society, certainly took it seriously. Why is that? Were they so flawed in their political reckonings that they manhandled the most important aspect of a free society – the vote? If the vote counts for so much in a free and liberal democracy as we ‘know’ it today, why did they limit the vote so dramatically? Which brings us back to to the subject of the thread: Islamophobia. How disturbing is it to hear politicians openly advocating for a Christian only refugee policy? Not even the the Evangelical Churches of America are willing to accept such a cruel policy, they at least accept that Christian charity must be extended to all, regardless of faith. Rejection of Muslims refugees, bans on Sharia and headscarves, opposition to mosque construction, extra-legal violence and intimidation, all are apart of a coherent xenophobic movement targeted against Muslims. It should be given no more credit than 19th century fears of the Chinese or Catholics. Squalid fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 19:24
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The Insect Court posted:I can think of at least one significant impediment to sedanchair taking that particular course of action. The poster you quoted did not explicitly say that every single fundamentalist movement is a response to colonialism. We are discussing modern history, and the internal social and political dynamics of every single African and Middle Eastern country have been affected by colonialism and imperialism. So by your own logic, modern day Islamic fundamentalism is a response to colonialism.
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Nov 28, 2015 19:32
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Potential BFF posted:The same criticisms of Islam apply to Christianity in America because they're both irredeemable garbage and preach poison. The current stream of right wing drivel getting barfed up about Islam is applicable to the Mike Huckabee crowd. The believers are pretty much just distinguishable from the taliban by their weight. That is a really ugly and bigoted thing to say. I am not right wing, in fact I am a communist. My church took me in when I came out of the closet as a lesbian. I am going through homelessness now and my pastor is helping to connect me to the right people. We're participating in the black lives matter protest too.
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Nov 28, 2015 19:55
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Panzeh posted:Churches are Nazi party HQs in the US- a disloyal fifth column working to destroy America. The preist class has historically been fascist as gently caress and should be liquidated, but we won't do it. With all due respect, gently caress you. I am either getting crap on christian forums for being a heretic and a sodomite or I am getting it here for believing in God and therefore I must be a Nazi.
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Nov 28, 2015 19:56
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Tei posted:This is magical thinking: I understand what it means. How did western society give man freedom and equality? These ideas are in no way "natural". You can't prove that all men are equal. These are ideas generated by men through religion. I think the belief New Athiest propose that Islam (or Christianity, or whatever) is inherently flawed, reductive, etc. and the world is better off without it is a fundamental view of religion. In many ways they are extremely similar to those who they propose to be against. I enjoyed Reza Aslan's conversation with TYT on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F-SiZt0amg The current fundamental-far rights trends in both Christianity and Islam are far more attributable to capitalism and neocolonialism than to religion in itself. The reaction by Athiesm to these trends is also fundamental and fearful. They sweep aside the secular west's culpability. It is rather ironic.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:00
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Mandy Thompson posted:That is a really ugly and bigoted thing to say. I am not right wing, in fact I am a communist. My church took me in when I came out of the closet as a lesbian. I am going through homelessness now and my pastor is helping to connect me to the right people. We're participating in the black lives matter protest too. Unfortunately, most people treat atheism as a kind of religion, with conversion stories and exclusivity and misfortunate arrogance concerning truth. Even less fortunately, it tends to be a sort of poisonous religion along the lines of Christian fundamentalism.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:09
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The most striking thing about the last four pages of this thread is all these posters come out of the woodwork to talk about how inferior Islamic culture is, only to melt away the second someone actually asks them to explain how they would put their beliefs about Muslim inferiority into practice. I can only conclude people get off, in some small way, by imagining that they're slaying some kind of SJW sacred cow. Honestly though unless you are advocating some kind of action then what is the point of zeroing in on a particular religion and proclaiming it uniquely bad? The most anyone has said so far are some really vague bromides about "respecting privacy" or "protecting women". Well gee, no loving poo poo that's a good thing to do, but how are you proposing to do it? It's particularly obnoxious because this was supposed to be a thread about Islamophobia and now it's basically a place for people to actually preach Islamophobia. If you're going to hijack a thread and turn it into the the exact opposite of what it was intended to be then could you at least have a loving point to your posting? If all you want to do is express yourself then go to loving E/N, or if you want a more relaxed debating atmosphere go to GBS.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:00
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Effectronica posted:Even less fortunately, it tends to be a sort of poisonous religion along the lines of Christian fundamentalism. Take a guess what type of households many atheists come from.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:03
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computer parts posted:Take a guess what type of households many atheists come from. gently caress you, dad also, Squalid posted:Those opposing Sharia in this thread should stop to inspect who their allies are in this fight. Fine upstanding characters like David Yerushalmi, who drafted many state bills banning sharia. He's an associate of Pam Geller and Terry Jones the Koran burning pastor, with charming opinions like the following: blowfish posted:It's a bad idea regardless of whether assholes also happen to oppose it.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:07
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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NNick posted:I understand what it means. How did western society give man freedom and equality? These ideas are in no way "natural". You can't prove that all men are equal. These are ideas generated by men through religion. Because the western society is not made by assholes, we invented these things. You read it correctly, the declaration of the human rights is just a invention that humans created, because they are cool. We also invented democracy. Because we are this awesome. *hand language that can be translated to gently caress you*
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Nov 28, 2015 21:12
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Truly the creeping menace of Sharia Law is a danger so severe that it's worth lending your voice to the most odious kinds of right wing nutcases. Just look at all the places in America where Sharia is already the law of the land. Remember the only way to integrate devout religious minorities is to make them feel as isolated, socially alienated and despised as possible. This is exactly how Catholics, Jews, and other religious groups were integrated in the past  Mandy Thompson posted:That is a really ugly and bigoted thing to say. I am not right wing, in fact I am a communist. My church took me in when I came out of the closet as a lesbian. I am going through homelessness now and my pastor is helping to connect me to the right people. We're participating in the black lives matter protest too. These forums can produce interesting discussions on a lot of topics but the threads involving religion almost always turn out very poorly. I'm not a person of faith but I've seen the benefits that religion has brought to the life of some of my relatives and I live in a country where healthcare and other social services were implemented, in part, thanks to the legacy of Christian socialists, so I appreciate the role that faith plays in many people's lives. Especially if religion is personally important to you then I would suggest mostly avoiding the topic unless you've got a very thick skin because you're inevitably going to end up with a bunch of ignoramuses or trolls spewing New Atheist garbage. Tei posted:Because the western society is not made by assholes, we invented these things. You read it correctly, the declaration of the human rights is just a invention that humans created, because they are cool. Are you in high school or something?
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Nov 28, 2015 21:13
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Would it be alright to bring up examples of leftist Islamophobia from forums outside of SA?
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Nov 28, 2015 21:17
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I think any discussion of Islamophobia would be a welcome respite from all the actual Islamophobia we're getting in this very thread.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:25
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blowfish posted:gently caress you, dad What's a bad idea? Do you have any examples of the horrors wrought by sharia courts on innocent Americans? Why are you following an agenda set by Christian supremacists? The so-called secularists who denounce Islam are dupes of the religious right. Every American court to review bans on Sharia have found them to violate the First Amendment, without which atheists would likely be banned from all civic life. For all my country's faults I'm proud America has robust safeguards against this kind of nonsense. Our secular tradition still stands strong against the modern wave of bigotry. Mutation posted:Would it be alright to bring up examples of leftist Islamophobia from forums outside of SA? It couldn't be worse than the last few pages of this thread. Squalid fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 21:35
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Well, here's a Neogaf thread about a Saudi Arabian woman getting stoned: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1147259 By page 5 you have prominent liberal posters saying that the solution is for Muslims to denounce Muhammad and keep their religion to themselves. kinda odd since the place has a reputation of being very un-bigoted.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:43
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no you see it's about religion in gaming journalism
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Nov 28, 2015 22:07
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Helsing posted:I think any discussion of Islamophobia would be a welcome respite from all the actual Islamophobia we're getting in this very thread. I think you want a safe space
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Nov 28, 2015 22:14
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Just because politics makes for strange bedfellows doesn't mean you have to support sharia law arbitration in America. If you oppose anything because an rear end in a top hat supports it, you're being reactionary and irrational.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:17
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Helsing posted:I think any discussion of Islamophobia would be a welcome respite from all the actual Islamophobia we're getting in this very thread. What sort of discussions do you want?
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Nov 28, 2015 22:18
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Average Bear posted:Just because politics makes for strange bedfellows doesn't mean you have to support sharia law arbitration in America. If you oppose anything because an rear end in a top hat supports it, you're being reactionary and irrational. The argument is that opposing Sharia arbitration materially helps Christian fascists in their goals and so should be opposed. There's more to it than the straw man.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:19
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Average Bear posted:Just because politics makes for strange bedfellows doesn't mean you have to support sharia law arbitration in America. If you oppose anything because an rear end in a top hat supports it, you're being reactionary and irrational. But again, why are you picking on sharia specifically? Why not attack all religious arbitration generally? Why would a secularist challenge the first amendment freedoms that protect us from theocracy?
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Nov 28, 2015 22:22
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Tei posted:I think you want a safe space If I wanted this thread to be a hugbox then I'd find a more polite way of telling you that I think you're an idiot. The problem here isn't that you're not being politically correct, the problem is that you have nothing insightful or interesting to say. You've been asked what the practical implications of your beliefs are and you didn't have poo poo to offer. Average Bear posted:What sort of discussions do you want? I think I've made that pretty clear by this point. If you don't support things like Sharia Law (and I would agree that Sharia law has no place in a secular country) then what are you actually proposing to do about it? Everyone keeps coming in here and making these white noise garbage posts about how Islam is a religion of backward savages. Yet any time I ask what material steps they can propose to deal with it they shut up real fast and try to change the subject. The fact is that religious toleration is a strategy for assimilation, and it's been a relatively effective one in the past if you just look at the history of religious minorities like Catholics or Jews. If people want to argue for something different then have the balls to actually say what you're advocating for. Also I don't think it can be ignored that stirring up hysteria about the non-existent threat of Sharia law in America is playing directly into the hands of the crazy Christian fundamentalists who actually have real political power and are more than willing to use it.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:25
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Squalid posted:But again, why are you picking on sharia specifically? Why not attack all religious arbitration generally? Why would a secularist challenge the first amendment freedoms that protect us from theocracy? I am.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:26
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To clarify, I didn't know religious arbitration was common in America. The issue of sharia being used as well was brought up, so that's why it catches flak. Here are the material steps I will take to counter the power of religion in secular politics: not vote for religious leaders.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:33
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Average Bear posted:To clarify, I didn't know religious arbitration was common in America. The issue of sharia being used as well was brought up, so that's why it catches flak. In the United States, this involves rarely voting period. I'm not even sure if any third parties with nationwide balloting are running atheist or agnostic candidates in 2016.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:37
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Average Bear posted:To clarify, I didn't know religious arbitration was common in America. Hmm, I wonder if there's a reason for that.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:44
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Average Bear posted:To clarify, I didn't know religious arbitration was common in America. The issue of sharia being used as well was brought up, so that's why it catches flak. It's brought up because the radical right wing is looking for every possible means through which to attack Islam specifically. The fact that many self-proclaimed secularists blithely join them as they attempt to erode the separation of church and state is a symptom of the Islamophobia that has crept into the modern discourse. When the inconsistency and hypocrisy of targeting Islam specifically is brought up, it's easy to hedge and call for the destruction of Catholic Canon law, setting aside the obvious infeasibility of such a project. But that's not what the public debate about. The public debate is about Islam, and how to marginalize Muslims. When secularists join in this project, they are serving the agenda of the Christian Right. We should take a principled stand and call for equal treatment of all religions.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:48
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Helsing posted:If you don't support things like Sharia Law (and I would agree that Sharia law has no place in a secular country) Unlike you, I think Sharia Law has not place anywhere in the world. What are nations or cultures, but imaginary lines draw in a map that don't exist in reality. Helsing posted:The fact is that religious toleration is a strategy for assimilation, and it's been a relatively effective one in the past if you just look at the history of religious minorities like Catholics or Jews. If people want to argue for something different then have the balls to actually say what you're advocating for. Apparently the turks are well integrated in germany, but many muslims seems to be alienated in france. I just seems is not has clear as you say. Tei fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 22:50
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