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MrL_JaKiri posted:Not really, "If only the guys who have poo poo lives would just shut up and take it instead of fighting that'd be much better" is absolutely the political orthodoxy. If anything it's the fundamental statement of conservatism Excluded middle here. Hi. The point is, this is how the cycle of violence does work, and the events in Paris are an example- Daesh didn't organize this to make the lives of French Muslims better, but worse, so they'd all have to run to their side and we can have the big final Clash of Civilizations, which happens to be what the conservatives on the Western side want as well, because they both think they'll win. When people want a war you don't give it to them.
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Nov 27, 2015 21:01
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I think those episodes actually did a pretty good job on the Zygons, as I said in my initial reaction to it, its the humans who came off as poorly written.
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Nov 27, 2015 21:35
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I disagree. The Doctor's speech was pretty much: "Hey, Bonnie, you don't really know what you want. Zygon rebels are whiny little babies, and need to shut up." Even if the conflict is portrayed well throughout the episode, that last speech really only depicts the Zygon rebels as being wrong about their grievances. Humanity can happily keep on chasing everyone who looks like an alien from their planet, it seems. No need to learn how peaceful coexistence with other cultures works.
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Nov 27, 2015 21:50
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I think the mistake they made was in focusing so heavily on Bonnie, because Kate was right there with her finger on the button as well and I think we were meant to see them both as essentially equals (despite Kate representing the privileged "default" side of things). But Kate gets so little attention AND is the first to step down from the brink, which makes it seem more like this is a Zygon problem caused by Zygons with Zygons to blame, and only Zygons needing to be "fixed" and brought around to the "correct" way of thinking. I think it is a fantastic scene with a marvelous speech that Capaldi acts the hell out of, but the way the scene was framed and the context of the episode (and part 1 in particular) drag it down somewhat in the greater scheme of things.
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Nov 27, 2015 21:55
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Jerusalem posted:I think the mistake they made was in focusing so heavily on Bonnie, because Kate was right there with her finger on the button as well and I think we were meant to see them both as essentially equals (despite Kate representing the privileged "default" side of things). But Kate gets so little attention AND is the first to step down from the brink, which makes it seem more like this is a Zygon problem caused by Zygons with Zygons to blame, and only Zygons needing to be "fixed" and brought around to the "correct" way of thinking. It's not really mentioned or explored much, but I think the fact that Bonnie gets to keep her memories while Kate's are erased goes a LONG way towards blaming Kate and UNIT.
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Nov 27, 2015 22:53
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And More posted:I disagree. The Doctor's speech was pretty much: "Hey, Bonnie, you don't really know what you want. Zygon rebels are whiny little babies, and need to shut up." Even if the conflict is portrayed well throughout the episode, that last speech really only depicts the Zygon rebels as being wrong about their grievances. Humanity can happily keep on chasing everyone who looks like an alien from their planet, it seems. No need to learn how peaceful coexistence with other cultures works. I hated the Doctor's speech, but then I hate most of modern Doctor speeches so eeeeeuhhhhh.
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Nov 28, 2015 00:16
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Rochallor posted:It's not really mentioned or explored much, but I think the fact that Bonnie gets to keep her memories while Kate's are erased goes a LONG way towards blaming Kate and UNIT. Yeah. It's worth remembering that The Doctor wasn't the one who determined the rules of the peace treaty, that was the Humans and Zygons under amnesia creating the treaty with the best possible chance of success. It's definitely well understood by both sides that humanity as a whole just couldn't deal with the situation.
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Nov 28, 2015 00:26
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Too soon?
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Nov 28, 2015 01:00
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Rochallor posted:It's not really mentioned or explored much, but I think the fact that Bonnie gets to keep her memories while Kate's are erased goes a LONG way towards blaming Kate and UNIT. Agreed, but you need to look beneath the surface to see it, and I think the way the episodes (and that scene itself) were framed put too much emphasis on the Zygons, and that created the (shallow, admittedly) takeaway that they were the ones to blame for this whole situation, and not that it was an issue with blame to be assigned to both sides. CobiWann posted:Too soon? Now now, for all we know she's just been in that little New New York alleyway where the street vendors sold drug patches!
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Nov 28, 2015 01:02
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CobiWann posted:Too soon? I like that it works on multiple levels. You better step up your game J-Ru, I never would have believed it but right now I don't think you have the title of "best Doctor Who gif of the year" sewn up. At least you'll always have "Best avatar made for me" in the bag  .
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Nov 28, 2015 05:35
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NowonSA posted:I like that it works on multiple levels. You better step up your game J-Ru, I never would have believed it but right now I don't think you have the title of "best Doctor Who gif of the year" sewn up. At least you'll always have "Best avatar made for me" in the bag Oh, no, I didn't make this gif. I found it somewhere. I haven't had an original thought since the seventh grade when my school stopped using smelly markers in the art program.
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Nov 28, 2015 06:13
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Not really, "If only the guys who have poo poo lives would just shut up and take it instead of fighting that'd be much better" is absolutely the political orthodoxy. If anything it's the fundamental statement of conservatism That's essentially the message in most of Doctor Who, though. It's that surface-level Beatles-y "But, have you tried peace and love?" that gives the show its appeal. Yeah, there's that one moment where David Tennant just kind of shrugs when the Ood take their revenge, because of how horribly they've been treated, but other than that, it's always "The man who never would," "coward every time," no matter how many times we post the gun montage video. The Doctor comes from the imperialistic authority planet, and he bosses the rest of the Universe around. Oftentimes he is targeting the oppressors, but there's a line he draws, and he does get angry at the oppressed when he feels their rebellion has gone too far. You can especially see it with Six, Ten and Twelve, I think. Three as well, but at least with him, it's the humans he's criticizing, and it's a very obvious Cold War thing. One of the things I liked about Danny Pink as a character is that he wasn't afraid to call the Doctor out on it, and that the show does not exactly portray the Doctor as being in the right during their arguments. I think what made the speech work for me is that a lot of it is essentially the Doctor talking to himself, but it probably could have used more focus on Kate or a little less childish, oblivious rage on the part of the Zygon. The political climate right now certainly doesn't help, but I don't think Peter Harness was doing ye olde sci fi chestnut, "This other culture has been replaced by aliens, so that I can criticize them by proxy and make the British alien the smart, peacemaker." It feels like a more general "We're all scared, we all feel wronged, but let's start with the conversation and avoid the bloodshed" thing. It's a difficult balance portraying an essentially pacifist alien without making it sound like a snooty condemnation of all oppressed rebellion.
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Nov 28, 2015 07:00
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Bicyclops posted:One of the things I liked about Danny Pink as a character is that he wasn't afraid to call the Doctor out on it, and that the show does not exactly portray the Doctor as being in the right during their arguments. Danny's arguments were even worse than the Doctor's though. He says the Doctor's a soldier and, supposedly, thats a bad thing. But when there's Daleks and Cybermen about you want a soldier. How many of these recent villains have needed killing or, at least a military defeat? In this season we had Missy and the Daleks, the Fisher King, the aliens in the Viking episode, the alien in the France episode, the Zygons and the dust monsters. They were all invading would-be conquerers or mindless killers. With a world like that there's nothing wrong with the Doctor being a soldier. edit: And its not like this is some new conundrum either. I'm just starting on series 14 of classic and I can't help but marvel as Tom Baker goes into battle with and defeats the Mandragora, saving all of Renaissance Italy from the clutches of some intelligence which turns people into slaves, or whatever the exact plan was. Also, I think this might be the first time I've heard, "I'll explain later." I take it, based on the Curse of Fatal Death, that this would become a recurring theme? Cliff Racer fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 07:10
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Cliff Racer posted:Danny's arguments were even worse than the Doctor's though. He says the Doctor's a soldier and, supposedly, thats a bad thing. But when there's Daleks and Cybermen about you want a soldier. How many of these recent villains have needed killing or, at least a military defeat? In this season we had Missy and the Daleks, the Fisher King, the aliens in the Viking episode, the alien in the France episode, the Zygons and the dust monsters. They were all invading would-be conquerers or mindless killers. With a world like that there's nothing wrong with the Doctor being a soldier. That's not the central message of Doctor Who, though, whose character's catchphrase was, at one point "Typical of the military mind." It's gone through different head writers and directors and eras, but one of the more central tenets is that the Doctor isn't a soldier. He's "an idiot with a box and a screwdriver," and that isn't really a Moffat invention. We're meant to root for the loony who's going to defeat the bad guys with the technical sci fi equivalent of a ball of string, not the soldiers who keep telling him that things would be fine if they could just blow up the Cybermen with a plasma rifle. Essentially, this isn't a show about a soldier, or at least it largely tries not to be. I think you're also missing the point of Danny's arguments, which is to point out the hypocrisy behind them. The Doctor was dismissive and critical of Danny for being a solider, whereas Danny says that the Doctor is simply an "officer," a person who doesn't want to get his hands directly dirty but is perfectly happy to orchestrate the loss of life at another's hands, or else to simply allow for people to get slaughtered through non-intervention. Danny isn't criticizing the Doctor for being militaristic, he's criticizing him for having a superior attitude about the circumstances that lead others to become "soldiers." It's similar to what Davros said to Ten toward the end of Tennant's run, except it has a little more punch when it isn't coming from a megalomaniacal supervillain who built the space robo-Nazis.
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Nov 28, 2015 07:25
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Bicyclops posted:That's not the central message of Doctor Who, though, whose character's catchphrase was, at one point "Typical of the military mind." It's gone through different head writers and directors and eras, but one of the more central tenets is that the Doctor isn't a soldier. He might not be a soldier all of the time (but sometimes he is!) but from what I've seen (1, 2, 3, two+ seasons of 4 and most of the new series) he's pretty much always been a warrior from 3 onwards, with one being too old for that sort of thing and two being in between. The only difference is he doesn't like taking orders.
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Nov 28, 2015 07:50
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Danny, who was a soldier himself, says the Doctor acts like an officer, not a soldier. He's saying he's happy to direct other people into fights and turn his companions into soldiers, while keeping his own hands clean.
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Nov 28, 2015 13:41
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Yeah, honestly, I liked Danny quite a bit. It felt like his potential arc was cut very short in the S8 finale. I really think they could have put his character to much better use.
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Nov 28, 2015 14:11
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I liked Danny fine, but I had one problem with his arc, and that's the reveal that when he was in Iraq, he shot and killed a young boy, and that's why he dislikes officers. But the problem, I think, is that aren't shown anything like (for example) his CO telling him to go and clear out the house while he protests that they haven't done any reconnaissance and don't know who's actually in it. I think that without that, it's comes off a bit like it's Danny making the mistake himself, rather than carrying out a bad order because he has to then having to live with the consequences of somebody else's error. I am sure we can read that into the scene, but I'm not sure if it's as obvious as it probably needs to be. Could've even had a scene where Danny's in a court-martial and the officer who gave him the bad command is setting him up as his fall-guy or something.
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Nov 28, 2015 14:19
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Bicyclops posted:It feels like a more general "We're all scared, we all feel wronged, but let's start with the conversation and avoid the bloodshed" thing. Except it wasn't that - the Doctor explicitly says that life is unfair and that they shouldn't stop crying about it when Bonnie refers to their group's grievances which include immature Zygons being killed through no real fault of their own, remember. And, in real life, terrorism only starts when negotiation either fails (because the people who enjoy the status quo don't want them to succeed) or don't happen in the first place (because the people who enjoy the status quo don't want them to happen). The people who most responsible for the violence are the Zygon leaders, and to a certain extent UNIT and from Kate being the first one to close the box to Bonnie being the one who needs to be forgiven the episode clearly has the following idea in mind: "Terrorists are bad but we're going to forgive them and negotiate because we're so much more enlightened", with the Doctor representing this oh-so-Liberal position that completely ignores the moral responsibility of those in power.
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Nov 28, 2015 14:23
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Can we not start this again?
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Nov 28, 2015 15:00
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Neglected to concur with Jerusalem's earlier post that Tennant is really good in Jessica Jones. Certainly not like the Doctor at all.
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Nov 28, 2015 15:24
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Wheat Loaf posted:Neglected to concur with Jerusalem's earlier post that Tennant is really good in Jessica Jones. Certainly not like the Doctor at all. Well, at one point in the show he did say he's not ten anymore. 
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Nov 28, 2015 16:16
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howe_sam posted:Well, at one point in the show he did say he's not ten anymore. I also enjoyed that. I'm enjoying the babies crying about how him being such a monstrous villain is ruining the Tenth Doctor for them even more.
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Nov 28, 2015 16:55
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Wheat Loaf posted:Neglected to concur with Jerusalem's earlier post that Tennant is really good in Jessica Jones. Certainly not like the Doctor at all. I dunno, I kinda saw him as an evil 10th Doctor. I mean, he had the same accent and cadence and everything.
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Nov 28, 2015 18:13
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Mooseontheloose posted:I dunno, I kinda saw him as an eviler 10th Doctor. I mean, he had the same accent and cadence and everything. Fixed that for you
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Nov 28, 2015 18:15
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There's one scene where they look at each other through a window that is eerily reminiscent of Partners in Crime.
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Nov 28, 2015 18:43
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Except it wasn't that - the Doctor explicitly says that life is unfair and that they shouldn't stop crying about it when Bonnie refers to their group's grievances which include immature Zygons being killed through no real fault of their own, remember. Is that a part of her grievances? I'd thought it was only them being forced to look like people and adopt the cultures of Earth (which is a problem on its own). I'd thought most of the immature Zygons being slaughtered happened through Bonnie, but maybe I'm remembering it incorrectly. Either way, I mostly agree, I just think that's a facet of the program, Doctor Who, and not a facet of this particular two-parter. At least this time, he didn't broker the piece only to have a Lethbridge-Stewart press the button anyway. It's good to hear that Tennant is really getting his teeth into the villain role. I've been looking forward to trying out Jessica Jones.
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Nov 28, 2015 19:06
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Yo Bobkatt013, thanks so much for your Secret Santa gift of About Time Volume 6! You can't get it digitally yet so I was holding off, but this is perfect!
DoctorWhat fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 19:09
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Rhyno posted:I'm enjoying the babies crying about how him being such a monstrous villain is ruining the Tenth Doctor for them even more. I wonder if there's anyone complaining about the Twelfth Doctor ruining Malcolm Tucker for them. 
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Nov 28, 2015 19:41
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DoctorWhat posted:Yo Bobkatt013, thanks so much for your Secret Santa gift of About Time Volume 6! You can't get it digitally yet so I was holding off, but this is perfect! You should be getting another thing Monday.
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Nov 28, 2015 19:57
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Rhyno posted:I also enjoyed that. Be a dear and show them this, won't you? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoUdPin-dhU Some helpful fellow has uploaded the whole thing to that same website; it's well worth watching. One of the few worthwhile things ITV has done in the last ten years.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:27
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Welp, time to scratch yet another,"I have an idea I haven't seen written about in Doctor Who yet!" off the list. Edit: It's dictatorship for inadequates.... in other words its dictatorship." 
Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 21:09
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Did they not have a "Last time on Doctor Who" thing for this? Since it feels like that might be a little bit helpful, especially since I forgot why he even got sent here.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:12
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So has Moffat just been watching It Follows? Sure feels like it.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:13
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Capaldi's switch from furious to terrified was great. Also he's trapped in hogwarts Fil5000 fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 21:14
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Welp, that took a creepy turn. I loved the falling/working it out sequence though, outside of the falling sound effect they insisted on including.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:23
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Time loop, wheeeee
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Nov 28, 2015 21:24
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Fil5000 posted:Time loop, wheeeee In the end he'll turn out to have been there for the "longest month of my life" 
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Nov 28, 2015 21:27
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WHY WOULD YOU OPEN THE DOOR
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Nov 28, 2015 21:29
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Fil5000 posted:WHY WOULD YOU OPEN THE DOOR TIME TO LOOK THROUGH THE WINDOW!
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Nov 28, 2015 21:30
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