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This is what happens when your racist, gun-nut uncle is emboldened just enough by the awful, racist, xenophobic, homophobic, sexist rhetoric to pull out that Bushmaster and TAKE ACTION. This is a culture war goddrat it.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:03
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Cythereal posted:Freep types are really divided about it. The ultraright often approves of killing Obama's brainwashed jackbooted freedom-hating minions of liberal darkness. Depends on the context and which mode of thinking is more narratively convenient. I have a coworker that basically turned his facebook wall into a Breitbart feed. He always posts about cops doing lovely things until one of them kills a black person, then it's character assassination of the black person posts.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:05
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McAlister posted:Should planned parenthood be able to sue people who hack together videos accusing them of doing illegal things when they aren't doing illegal things? In a narrowly defined context where the result of such slander/libel resulted in physical violence against the target, yes I would be fine with. However it would have to apply to ONLY physical harm uncured by the victim and never monetary or emotional ones. Even though something like this is highly unethical I would never want it to be covered by that law.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:17
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McAlister posted:Proving that someone was deliberately lying is an incredibly high bar to reach. Setting that bar does not endanger public discourse. When you can reach it there should be punishment severe enough to make others think twice about doing the same. Defamation in the US used to work that way, and it absolutely inhibited public discourse and was used to shut down speech people disliked. I mean, it's not even arguable - go read the facts behind NYT v Sullivan, which is where the modern standard came from.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:29
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I wonder what could be the cause. http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/even-shooting-colorado-abortion-clinics-battleground quote:Last summer, Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains’ medical director was one of several abortion providers featured in anti-abortion sting videos, accusing them of breaking laws regulating the donation of fetal tissue for medical research. Conservative activists and legislators, most prominently Colorado Springs’ own elected officials, have been condemning the group for months, accusing it of trafficking in “baby parts.”
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Nov 28, 2015 20:36
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This whole PP shooting thing is crazy, like if someone over here Do you have separate family planning places in hospitals too or is it just PP who take care of it?
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Nov 28, 2015 20:38
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The Iron Rose posted:I'm trying to fathom how people can advocate for or against restrictions of freedom of speech based on political ideology. I'm not. I'm saying that any person who knowingly disseminates false information represented as fact for profit that slanders another person or group should have all the profits garnered by doing so taken away and given to the group being slandered. Folks here moan endlessly about how high a bar "knowingly" is and how including it in a law renders the law all but toothless. How necessary it is to make it illegal, for example, to create electoral maps that have the effect of discriminating even if that was unintentional because if you can use ignorance as an excuse it's virtually impossible to pin anything on you. And you are right. That analysis is absolutely correct. I have zero fear of tightening our slander laws ever so slightly being turned on me because I don't edit videos to create narratives I know for a fact are untrue and disseminate them as fact for profit. And I'm perfectly comfortable with anyone who does so, even if they are nominally "on my side" getting shut down for doing so. The "deliberately" clause means it wouldn't even catch all the deliberate liars. Just the particularly unhinged/stupid ones. And slippery slope is a fallacy.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:39
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Geokinesis posted:Do you have separate family planning places in hospitals too or is it just PP who take care of it? Hospitals aren't allowed to perform abortions for dumb legal reasons involving Medicare, I believe, so abortion clinics have to be their own special thing. It's stupid, just like everything else regarding healthcare in America.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:40
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McAlister posted:I'm not. That's slander or libel, as you've phrased it and the damaged party can sue for it. You don't need a new law. This law already exists.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:44
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Dude was from Black Mountain and/or Swannanoa NC depending on which shack yuo consider his permanent residence. That's just east of Asheville and there are some really bonkers religious folks over that way. Both of the Evangelical televangelist type and of the "show up at the downtown craft festival and yell at all the fornicators" type.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:44
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WampaLord posted:Hospitals aren't allowed to perform abortions for dumb legal reasons involving Medicare, I believe, so abortion clinics have to be their own special thing. It's stupid, just like everything else regarding healthcare in America. Also, a lot of the major hospital chains are Catholic-based so there's no chance there.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:45
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WampaLord posted:Hospitals aren't allowed to perform abortions for dumb legal reasons involving Medicare, I believe, so abortion clinics have to be their own special thing. It's stupid, just like everything else regarding healthcare in America. I mean like family planning/sexual health stuff, contraceptives/smears/sti tests etc, are there clinics attached to hospitals that cover these too? As I saw that the majority of PP is in fact stuff like that.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:46
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I'm really struggling to get through Joseph Stiglitz's "The Price of Inequality", and not because it's poorly written. It in fact is well written. I'm struggling because it is so goddamn maddening and depressing and bleak. It confirms much of what I've thought before but puts it in incredibly stark and relentless terms. I can't help to think, as I read it, about people who have taken advantage financially of those that I know, or of conversations with conservatives/libertarians who simply refuse to grasp the hugely complicated nature and breadth of time that the problem encompasses. I have to put the book down every 20 pages or so... 
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Nov 28, 2015 20:50
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Geokinesis posted:I mean like family planning/sexual health stuff, contraceptives/smears/sti tests etc, are there clinics attached to hospitals that cover these too? As I saw that the majority of PP is in fact stuff like that. A lot of general doctors cover them, but PP will do it for free/very cheap if you don't have money or insurance.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:56
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A Winner is Jew posted:
... And it wouldn't be? Implication != statement. Saying" no rats at my store" is not saying "my opponent has a rat infestation". It implies it heavily, but it stops short of saying it. And yes, running adds making the explicit claim that your competition's store has a vermin infestation when you have no evidence that they do and the city health inspector says they don't should absolutely allow them to sue you for compensatory damages and punitive damages should be an option in cases where the liar made more money for the lie than they lost paying compensatory damages.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:05
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A Winner is Jew posted:In a narrowly defined context where the result of such slander/libel resulted in physical violence against the target, yes I would be fine with. However it would have to apply to ONLY physical harm uncured by the victim and never monetary or emotional ones. So saying something that makes a person beat you up is bad, but saying something that makes people drive you to kill yourself is ok? 
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Nov 28, 2015 21:16
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NPR story right now: Police aren't discussing the motive of the suspect in the Planned Parenthood attack but say people can make "inferences from where it took place." http://www.scpr.org/news/2015/11/28/55922/suspect-in-planned-parenthood-attack-called-loner/ They then go on to immediately say he's probably an apolitical mentally ill loner
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Nov 28, 2015 21:23
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evilweasel posted:That's slander or libel, as you've phrased it and the damaged party can sue for it. You don't need a new law. This law already exists. Yup. The law is already more or less as you describe it. Libel and slander laws are actually one of the areas of jurisprudence that the US does quite well. The burden of proof is as high as it is because that's necessary to protect public discourse-- including, importantly, the validity of truthfulness (actual or believed) as a defense. And proving knowing deceit is very tricky.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:25
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Boon posted:I'm really struggling to get through Joseph Stiglitz's "The Price of Inequality", and not because it's poorly written. It in fact is well written. I know that feeling. Keep reading.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:26
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Evil Fluffy posted:So saying something that makes a person beat you up is bad, but saying something that makes people drive you to kill yourself is ok? Yes? Hate speech like the Tuner Diaries that directly leads to murders like that of Alan Berg should be prosecuted.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:41
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ExplodingChef posted:Also, a lot of the major hospital chains are Catholic-based so there's no chance there. This is actually worse then you might think. Catholic hospitals have a different standard of care for pregnant women then other hospitals. This comes up most apparently in the treatment of ecctopic pregnancy, recommended treatment is to abort immediately. Catholic treatment is to wait until the condition gets to the point where it's clear it will kill the mother and then perform surgery to remove the fallopian tube. This means the fetus wasn't aborted and can be classified as lost to complications of an unrelated procedure.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:46
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Throwing Turtles posted:Catholic treatment is to wait until the condition gets to the point where it's clear it will kill the mother and then perform surgery to remove the fallopian tube. This means the fetus wasn't aborted and can be classified as lost to complications of an unrelated procedure. Yup. This is hosed up.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:48
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Aerox posted:NPR story right now: Its stupid and awful, but i can see why they are trying to veer away from outright calling a right wing loonie and just call him some non political mentaly ill dude. They dont want to make this fuckhead another hero to the fringe rightwing/prolife cause. they dont want to create another Eric Rudolph esc hero. but i agree that this country/media has a problem with calling calling terrorism when its clearly terrorism. it doesnt help that abortion is a massively controversial issue still.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:50
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A Winner is Jew posted:Yes? I'm with you there. Using inflammatory rhetoric to incite, justify, or defend violence ought to be illegal for the same reason as it is illegal to yell fire in a movie theatre or make a bomb threat.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:51
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ComradeCosmobot posted:In which Matt Iglesias argues that it's okay for quiverful parents to get 10 votes to your parents' 2.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:57
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Throwing Turtles posted:This is actually worse then you might think. Catholic hospitals have a different standard of care for pregnant women then other hospitals. This comes up most apparently in the treatment of ecctopic pregnancy, recommended treatment is to abort immediately. Catholic treatment is to wait until the condition gets to the point where it's clear it will kill the mother and then perform surgery to remove the fallopian tube. This means the fetus wasn't aborted and can be classified as lost to complications of an unrelated procedure. Stuff like this is one of the reasons I drifted away from the Catholic church. I liked all of the ideas about social justice, caring for the poor, etc., but the way they prioritized fetuses over mothers is so dehumanizing.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:59
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evilweasel posted:That's slander or libel, as you've phrased it and the damaged party can sue for it. You don't need a new law. This law already exists. Which is why my initial statement was to give our slander laws more teeth. Not to invent the concept. If a law preventing jaywalking exists, but the penalty is a one penny fine, will the law be effective? If I make more money from illegal financial practices than I will have to pay if caught, am I effectively dissuaded from breaking those laws? If the amount of money that pours in to the centers for medical progress from faux-life sites exceeds the cost of losing the slander/liable suit the NFA is leveling against them then what will they learn from this? O'keefe, the fake pimp video boy, for example, lost his defamation suit to the tune of $100,000. That is not a small amount of money in abstract, but compared to the money he made with his slanders its chump change.. It is a somewhat modern phenomena that you can rather easily fundraise more money off of slandering someone than they can demonstrate in damages. So we need to not just look at the damage done to the victim, but also the benefit to the slanderer. Regulations requiring that if the slanderer is engaged in related fundraising activities then minimum punitive damages being all the funds raised after publishing the proven slander are what I'm looking for. This poo poo should be something that destroys careers in advocacy, not founds them.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:02
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Shifty Pony posted:That's just east of Asheville and there are some really bonkers religious folks over that way. Both of the Evangelical televangelist type and of the "show up at the downtown craft festival and yell at all the fornicators" type. You mean to imply that this doesn't describe most of North Carolina? Aerox posted:NPR story right now: They could also infer that this was politically motivated from the fact that he was a co-pastor in North Carolina but that would be profiling. Maybe the truth truly is in the middle. Defenestration posted:God Vox sure are some smug devil's advocate motherfuckers aren't they? It's mostly just that one reporter but they did hire him so they aren't completely absolved. Fuckt Tupp fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 22:15
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A Winner is Jew posted:Yes? Yet if that hate speech had just let to Alan Berg killing themselves it'd be fine? Do you have any understanding, at all, about how psychological damage works or how much more long-lasting it can be?
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Nov 28, 2015 22:31
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Its stupid and awful, but i can see why they are trying to veer away from outright calling a right wing loonie and just call him some non political mentaly ill dude. They dont want to make this fuckhead another hero to the fringe rightwing/prolife cause. they dont want to create another Eric Rudolph esc hero. but i agree that this country/media has a problem with calling calling terrorism when its clearly terrorism. it doesnt help that abortion is a massively controversial issue still. That and the cops and neighbors are ideologically aligned, if not as extreme, as him and they don't want him discrediting the cause. It isn't a coincidence that the neighbors keep insisting the guy never talked politics and the police reports all mention politic lts and political symbols as relating to the incidents
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Nov 28, 2015 22:37
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PUGGERNAUT posted:Stuff like this is one of the reasons I drifted away from the Catholic church. I liked all of the ideas about social justice, caring for the poor, etc., but the way they prioritized fetuses over mothers is so dehumanizing. 'Mother'? You mean Mary? Pretty sure that fetus turned into Jesus. So it's OK to put the fetus ahead of some baby making robot.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:37
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McAlister posted:Which is why my initial statement was to give our slander laws more teeth. Not to invent the concept. This also already exists, it's called punitive damages.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:39
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Fried Chicken posted:That and the cops and neighbors are ideologically aligned, if not as extreme, as him and they don't want him discrediting the cause. It isn't a coincidence that the neighbors keep insisting the guy never talked politics and the police reports all mention politic lts and political symbols as relating to the incidents too be fair he could have just been a nonpolitical nutjob, I just doubt it. unfortunalty with this political climate(of the last decade or so) i doubt the media will label him a terrorist. I would count this guy as a domestic terrorist same with the black church shooter. Eliot Rodger is a mixed bag. I count him more as a spree killer with hosed up sadbrain beliefs. i dont know.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:57
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This was pages ago but, What the gently caress? He wasn't just a conservative, he was a Ted Cruz conservative.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:59
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Trabisnikof posted:"Why wasn't PP required to check everyones's IDs through a one-way bulletproof glass window? Why wasn't there multiple armed guards on site 24/7? Let's mandate those for all abortion providers, just to be safe. I'm sure they can sell a few more baby hearts to make up their profit loss." They already do this. They make a photocopy of your driver's license and keep it until you leave after your appointment.
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Nov 28, 2015 23:05
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radical meme posted:This was pages ago but, What the gently caress? He wasn't just a conservative, he was a Ted Cruz conservative. Dipshit kid waffles on paper-thin belief structure. Unsurprising.
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Nov 28, 2015 23:05
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Armani posted:I know that feeling. Keep reading. Soldiering on, slowly. The next book on my nightstand is "What the Matter with Kansas", so it's possible I might slide into depression as the holidays approach...
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Nov 28, 2015 23:06
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Dapper_Swindler posted:too be fair he could have just been a nonpolitical nutjob, I just doubt it. unfortunalty with this political climate(of the last decade or so) i doubt the media will label him a terrorist. I would count this guy as a domestic terrorist same with the black church shooter. Eliot Rodger is a mixed bag. I count him more as a spree killer with hosed up sadbrain beliefs. i dont know. So all the previous incidents of him getting into conflicts about anti Obama conspiracy theories, the rebel flag, and defending mishandling guns on an extreme & borderline sovereign citizen 2nd amendment interpretation mark him as non political?
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Nov 28, 2015 23:13
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radical meme posted:This was pages ago but, What the gently caress? He wasn't just a conservative, he was a Ted Cruz conservative. He was 12/13. Everyone has stupid, stupid opinions at that age they grow out of, his just happened to be political and got national attention.
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Nov 28, 2015 23:15
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I would post the stupid, stupid, stupid things I believed at that age but fortunately they were before I posted on the internet so nobody can ever find them and I'd like to keep it that way.
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Nov 28, 2015 23:16
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