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Did anyone catch BBC 4's "Unnatural History: Amazon" the other night? Looking at civilisations and archeology in the amazon and how burning down huge chunks of it is revealling that holy poo poo was this place heavily populated before smallpox and the idea of a pristine untouch jungle is a misconception.
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Nov 21, 2015 16:38
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Cast_No_Shadow posted:Did anyone catch BBC 4's "Unnatural History: Amazon" the other night? Looking at civilisations and archeology in the amazon and how burning down huge chunks of it is revealling that holy poo poo was this place heavily populated before smallpox and the idea of a pristine untouch jungle is a misconception. The first Europeans to travel the Amazon saw lots of busy towns and villages. Then expeditions a few decades later didn't find poo poo and assumed the first guys were just lying.
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Nov 21, 2015 18:40
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Hanson at least knows what he's talking about when it comes to military stuff. All his other opinions are garbage but his military history is worth the time I think. Like I don't think Niall Ferguson is an idiot. I don't agree with his larger conclusions but I think his perspective is worth being part of a well-rounded consideration of the subject.
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Nov 21, 2015 18:44
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xthetenth posted:I'm going to guess he had a stupid argument to make about current events and worked from there. Am I right? Bang on
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Nov 21, 2015 19:04
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Grand Fromage posted:Hanson at least knows what he's talking about when it comes to military stuff.
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Nov 21, 2015 19:07
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HEY GAL posted:really? he's not correct at all when he says that the "european" way of warfare is characterized by "shock" and indirect or surprise tactics are the purview of "orientals" Which book is that? I haven't read all of his stuff by any means. What I did read seemed okay but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's gone nuts. I still think in general that it's good to pepper in people you don't agree with in your reading. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Nov 21, 2015 |
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Nov 21, 2015 19:16
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Niall Ferguson is a considerable historian when he lets his politics take a backseat. The cash nexus is fairly hefty, for example. Also wrong-headed provocateurs often drive historical discussion further than meek and deliberate people. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Nov 21, 2015 |
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Nov 21, 2015 19:25
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I generally support reading everything. Obviously I think my viewpoint is correct but, so does everyone. Only reading the people who agree with you is the first step down a bad path. Anyway I'm not going to bend over backwards defending people like Hanson or Ferguson but I don't think you should avoid reading them. Just be aware of the perspective you're getting and factor that into your overall picture.
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Nov 21, 2015 19:34
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Grand Fromage posted:I generally support reading everything. Obviously I think my viewpoint is correct but, so does everyone. Only reading the people who agree with you is the first step down a bad path. Yeah, the basic Historian's guideline is to read as many sources and commentaries as possible and to read them all critically.
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Nov 21, 2015 19:41
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Cast_No_Shadow posted:Did anyone catch BBC 4's "Unnatural History: Amazon" the other night? Looking at civilisations and archeology in the amazon and how burning down huge chunks of it is revealling that holy poo poo was this place heavily populated before smallpox and the idea of a pristine untouch jungle is a misconception. I have done some fieldwork on the Yucatán Peninsula and its pretty amazing how much is out there, its pretty great driving through and seeing countless overgrown mounds that are most likely sites. There still is a poo poo ton of work to do and thats just the stuff that is easily accessible.
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Nov 22, 2015 04:23
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Munin posted:Yeah, the basic Historian's guideline is to read as many sources and commentaries as possible and to read them all critically. And if they contradict Suetonius, reject the competing arguments.
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Nov 22, 2015 05:14
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GreyjoyBastard posted:And if they contradict Suetonius, reject the competing arguments. If you want real history, ignore Suetonius. If you want fun, don't.
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Nov 22, 2015 11:06
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Telsa Cola posted:I have done some fieldwork on the Yucatán Peninsula and its pretty amazing how much is out there, its pretty great driving through and seeing countless overgrown mounds that are most likely sites. There still is a poo poo ton of work to do and thats just the stuff that is easily accessible. Considering how much stuff we still dig out in Europe every day, it's blowing my mind thinking about how much must be still left in South America.
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Nov 22, 2015 12:36
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Libluini posted:Considering how much stuff we still dig out in Europe every day, it's blowing my mind thinking about how much must be still left in South America. Especially in Bolivia. 
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Nov 22, 2015 12:53
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Dalael posted:Especially in Bolivia. But it has nothing to do with Atlantis, sadly! 
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Nov 22, 2015 13:28
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Cast_No_Shadow posted:Did anyone catch BBC 4's "Unnatural History: Amazon" the other night? Looking at civilisations and archeology in the amazon and how burning down huge chunks of it is revealling that holy poo poo was this place heavily populated before smallpox and the idea of a pristine untouch jungle is a misconception. The thing to remember about this is that while there were certainly a lot more people and a lot more settlements they also weren't engaging in wide-scale deforestation the way we are, and especially weren't clearing swaths of jungles hundreds of miles long and deep. There is a big loving difference between a pre-colombian society living in the jungle - even one that has large-ish cities and settlements - and modern industrial logging, farming, and mining. I say this because I had to listen to an absolute idiot at a party talk about Amazonian settlement as part of his bit about how the effect humans have on the environment is insignificant and global warming isn't a thing. I can only presume that he saw that show.
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Nov 22, 2015 17:21
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Yeah the overall tone was. Yes there is an arguement to this point but here is expert after expert saying its dumb. Still I was completely bought into the idea of the amazon always being too hostile and difficult to live in beyond small tribes or modern technology (which is basically destroy it all rather than live in it anyway). Yet we estimate 6-8 million people lived there in an area twice the size of spain. Based on what we know and that staggered me. I knew the americas used to be densely populated then smallpox. But didn't really think it applied beyond north and Central America and the coast/mountains in south America. I find it utterly amazing, espeically when we start dating really fine advanced pottery and earthenware to 3000 years ago.
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Nov 22, 2015 18:55
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I lived in New Mexico for a few years and checked out all the museums and old ruins in the region that I could. The sense of living on top of a dead civilization permeates everything. Those old cliff cities are a lot more impressive in person. The culture survives in a lot of modern ways, too, which is cool. One of the best things about that part of the country is that you can find ancient pottery shards literally everywhere, I found some in my backyard once and quite a few on hikes.
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Nov 22, 2015 19:10
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It's not only contemporary mining and foresting that destroy the environment. Romans contributed to the extinction of several species in North Africa. It's an interesting (albeit sad) story.
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Nov 23, 2015 00:52
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Cast_No_Shadow posted:Yeah the overall tone was. Yes there is an arguement to this point but here is expert after expert saying its dumb. If you want a good overview of this, read Charles Mann's 1491.
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Nov 23, 2015 01:57
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:If you want a good overview of this, read Charles Mann's 1491. Seconded. Very good and generally pretty easy to stay in to book. The sequel, 1493, is also good but delves into minutiae more than I liked. Yes Charles I loving understand there are different types of mosquitoes.
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Nov 23, 2015 15:33
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To be fair I'm not sure Charles the First did understand that.
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Nov 23, 2015 15:39
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Cast_No_Shadow posted:Yeah the overall tone was. Yes there is an arguement to this point but here is expert after expert saying its dumb. ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:If you want a good overview of this, read Charles Mann's 1491. This is not a good book for any of the Amazonian civilizations that we will more then likely know nothing about unless we master time travel given that current theories say they built everything out of wood with some mastery of pottery. Much like Mound Builders any concret history of their society is lost
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Nov 23, 2015 17:09
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sbaldrick posted:This is not a good book for any of the Amazonian civilizations that we will more then likely know nothing about unless we master time travel given that current theories say they built everything out of wood with some mastery of pottery. Much like Mound Builders any concret history of their society is lost It isn't good by the standards of books on other civilizations for the reasons you mentioned but it's good compared to other things I've read on the Amazonians (which is admittedly basically nothing and I'll take any recommendations you have) because he pulls what sources he does have access to together and gives a good picture of what we do know. It's extremely unfortunate we don't have more though.
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Nov 23, 2015 17:37
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:It isn't good by the standards of books on other civilizations for the reasons you mentioned but it's good compared to other things I've read on the Amazonians (which is admittedly basically nothing and I'll take any recommendations you have) because he pulls what sources he does have access to together and gives a good picture of what we do know. It's extremely unfortunate we don't have more though. I don't believe any major works on the subject exist outside of journals and even then it's very sparse, I do believe most of the theories in 1941 are now discredited however.
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Nov 23, 2015 19:03
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sbaldrick posted:I do believe most of the theories in 1941 are now discredited however. Yeah having the Nazis be the main mouthpiece for your theories tends to do that
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Nov 24, 2015 13:17
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MikeCrotch posted:Yeah having the Nazis be the main mouthpiece for your theories tends to do that drat it, 1491
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Nov 24, 2015 15:52
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Also don't forget africa. There's shittons of stuff there that's still undug and won't be for a long time. This is bad because we seriously need much more info to change people's view on African history but good because, hopefully, by the time we get to it archaeological techniques will be way better. Silver lining.
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Nov 26, 2015 22:51
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Heads up for any UK Kindle owners, SPQR by Mary Beard is Ł1.80 at the minute on the Kindle Store.
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Nov 29, 2015 19:28
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Dave Angel posted:Heads up for any UK Kindle owners, SPQR by Mary Beard is Ł1.80 at the minute on the Kindle Store. <3 the BCE/CE bellyaching in the reviews: "Stupid Amazon Reviews posted:"Returned this book. I couldn't cope with ce/bce I found it just to distracting, stopping everytime and going ce? Thats...let me think. ....AD right? ...eerrrrm where was i? and kept losing the thread of the book. If this is not an issue for you, then please ignore this as I would have really liked to have read this book, but I was just unable. I therefore have no idea as to the actual content" I also love what the first review implies about the reviewer's intellect and attention span.
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Nov 29, 2015 21:25
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He should have used HE dates  It's unquestionably the superior system for discussing human recorded history.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:24
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Keldoclock posted:He should have used HE dates Before Present.
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Nov 30, 2015 01:15
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imo the "CE" nomenclature is weird and sort of dumb one is still measuring from the traditional estimate of the birth of Christ, taking another coat of paint to it makes no sense, it just serves to further cement the european/american cultural context as the "default" one. better to just be honest about the calendar's religious origin, i think
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Nov 30, 2015 01:39
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V. Illych L. posted:imo the "CE" nomenclature is weird and sort of dumb would you return a book and leave a scathing review if it used CE nomenclature
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Nov 30, 2015 01:54
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Keldoclock posted:He should have used HE dates Julian dates! Positive numbers for basically all historical events! V. Illych L. posted:imo the "CE" nomenclature is weird and sort of dumb Yeah, obv. That said it is still amusing how many people throw their toys out of the pram for what is ultimately a minor stylistic choice and one which is the more common present day convention. Munin fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 01:55
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All the cool kids use mya 
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Nov 30, 2015 01:57
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Beamed posted:would you return a book and leave a scathing review if it used CE nomenclature no, i just felt it was germane to say
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Nov 30, 2015 02:04
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Arglebargle III posted:All the cool kids use mya "The Second World War began 7.6e-5 MYA"
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Nov 30, 2015 02:07
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Nov 30, 2015 02:12
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Yesterday, December 7, 2694—a date which will live in infamy—the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.
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Nov 30, 2015 02:28
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