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In all fairness, here was my last win:code:*Drain is more annoying though, if the piece of equipment is "acceptable" then I'll just leave it on forever unless I have an easy way to get rid of the drain (like dipping into a Ziggurat or Abyss if you're high level). All that does for me is reduce tactical swapping, pretty boring and dumb brand. *Confuse is basically just a clarity check, there's very little equipment that's worth being confused and spending turns chugging curing. Again, it just locks your slots in unless you have intrinsic clarity in which case you're golden. Edit: basically, these brands are at least debatable, but stuff like no rMut and more swap-out penalties are absolutely abysmal changes. apple fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 07:05
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PleasingFungus posted:What tooltip? Do you mean the * in *Drain? Where it says you're drained on unequip rather than randomly. Unless that's been changed and everyone is whining about something that doesn't actually happen so the tooltip is correc.t
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Nov 30, 2015 07:07
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uPen posted:Where it says you're drained on unequip rather than randomly. Unless that's been changed and everyone is whining about something that doesn't actually happen so the tooltip is correc.t Everyone is complaining about something that *Drain did between May 11th and May 12th of this year, yes. It drains on unequip and does not drain randomly. "A rumor can travel halfway around the world before the truth has got its boots on" -- Jon Snow, The Silmarillion. apple posted:I have both *Corrode and *Drain, but I was a blaster mage. I actually like those "negative" brands because as far as I can tell, those negative brands are an excuse for the item generator to potentially put ridiculous stats on jewelry. As a blaster mage, *Corrode is not a factor, you're not supposed to get hit, and any encounter where you do is going to be very short so *Corrode won't do much. I did 4 Ziggurats with that ring, and I started with equipment that wasn't nearly as good. *Corrode making an item "no melee users" seems like an acceptable role for a randart property, if perhaps a little 'anti-melee'. (What does that make -Cast...?) *Confuse seems like it could maybe do with a rebalancing, though I'm not exactly sure what you'd do with it - an item that's just "clarity or bust" is not that exciting, and a roguelike by nature means that any tradeoff of "more power in exchange for occasional catastrophes" is a very bad trade, since catastrophes tend to end games. For reference for further discussion - those effects are a 3% per-hit chance (*Corrode) and 1% per-hit (*Confuse) respectively, which are actually pretty high chances, given the number of times you get hit in a game of crawl, or even a single fight. I really cannot comment on the current amulet stuff, since it blindsided me as much as anyone, and I can't even get onto IRC right now to talk about it - server is timing out on me (???). Removal of rMut seems very very dubious to me but I want to talk to people before reaching any conclusion.
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Nov 30, 2015 07:20
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On a different note, a good change:quote:Allow ghouls to autoeat when rotted. EDIT: One poster made the claim that *drain is anything other then on unequip (and I guess one asking for a clarification). All of the other posters have been complaining in a 'Either the gear is good enough to keep on forever or I don't wear it' and seem to know how it works. World Famous W fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 07:21
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*Corrode and *Confuse are entirely usable without rCorr/Clarity very often. Here's one character using 2 *conf (when I really cared, I'd use vit or swap rings (in advance, before I started using the conf cloak) or quaff curing, but usually you can just stumble around): http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/rchandra/morgue-rchandra-20151121-014136.txt Can't seem to find the log for this one but I had a character using *Corrode IDA or FDA from Orc, it was worth it just because it had a big +. edit: the above *Conf artefacts weren't even ludicrous, they just seemed to be what I wanted: +1 cloak of Veguas {*Confuse rPois rC+} ring "Alukh" {*Confuse MP+9 Str+4 Dex+3 Slay+2} rchandra fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 07:26
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How exactly are negative effects on randarts generated? The hat I posted has 4 pips of resist in exchange for *drain and -4 str and I'm sure I've seen gear with at least 3 if not 4 pips and no negative effects / possibly other positives? Seems to me if something generates with a catastrophically bad malus like *confuse or -cast/-tele it should have upsides that are as broken as the downside is lethal.
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Nov 30, 2015 07:28
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^^ I haven't looked at the source or anything, but my experience has been that the lower/upper bound on a lot of brands were loosened with the introduction of those negative brands.PleasingFungus posted:*Corrode making an item "no melee users" seems like an acceptable role for a randart property, if perhaps a little 'anti-melee'. (What does that make -Cast...?) *Confuse seems like it could maybe do with a rebalancing, though I'm not exactly sure what you'd do with it - an item that's just "clarity or bust" is not that exciting, and a roguelike by nature means that any tradeoff of "more power in exchange for occasional catastrophes" is a very bad trade, since catastrophes tend to end games. Even if *Corrode can be seen as 'anti-melee', high EV/SH characters can benefit a lot from a randart with crazy stats, just haven't played a game yet with the right randart. rCorr also seems like a very underwhelming resist now with 50% reduction, so I'd rather equip something that would just let me take less hits by either dodging more or killing things faster. E: Assuming I'm dealing with *Corrode or entropy weavers that is, you still want rCorr for acid blobs or caustic shrikes (but then again, I think caustic shrikes are pretty badly designed and another problem entirely..) apple fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 07:47
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*Confuse is fine without clarity. It doesn't happen very often, doesn't last long and you can quaff curing if you need to. I agree that amulets are in need of reform, but these changes look pretty terrible. rMut is awkward and I think getting rid of it would be good if there were a serious change in how malmutate works. But as it is, this just seriously ups the frustration and tedium of the most tedious and frustrating part of the game. Likewise, amulets of regen are too good, especially if you can us them for out of battle healing. I don't think this change is all bad, but rot is seriously annoying and perhaps too much of a penalty. I think there must be more interesting ways to change the amulet that show less detest for the players. I feel like these changes indicate a major disconnect from what most people's experience of the game actually is. Another change in the same spirit would be to bring back equipment destruction.
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Nov 30, 2015 07:51
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rchandra posted:*Corrode and *Confuse are entirely usable without rCorr/Clarity very often. apple posted:Even if *Corrode can be seen as 'anti-melee', high EV/SH characters can benefit a lot from a randart with crazy stats, just haven't played a game yet with the right randart. rCorr also seems like a very underwhelming resist now with 50% reduction, so I'd rather equip something that would just let me take less hits by either dodging more or killing things faster. Ah, thanks! That's good to know. uPen posted:How exactly are negative effects on randarts generated? The hat I posted has 4 pips of resist in exchange for *drain and -4 str and I'm sure I've seen gear with at least 3 if not 4 pips and no negative effects / possibly other positives? Seems to me if something generates with a catastrophically bad malus like *confuse or -cast/-tele it should have upsides that are as broken as the downside is lethal. it's a little complicated.
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Nov 30, 2015 07:52
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Heithinn Grasida posted:I feel like these changes indicate a major disconnect from what most people's experience of the game actually is. Another change in the same spirit would be to bring back equipment destruction. I think at some point some people end up in a weird bubble of their own specific playstyle, and forget how everyone else plays.
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Nov 30, 2015 08:23
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so when's the inevitable fork going to be established that removes all that dumb poo poo that's being added/changed
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Nov 30, 2015 08:26
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For the record I think some of the old negative properties like -cast and *tele are also so bad they might as well not exist. If a negative property is so awful that you're basically never going to use it unless its irrelevant to your character, its not making the game more interesting. Flawed artifacts can make for interesting tactical decisions but in 99% of my games I'm going to just toss the artifacts with the really terrible ones rather than risk using them.
Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 08:28
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quote:amulet changes I but why? gently caress this poo poo, not touching trunk until it gets reverted by someone with a less "gently caress YOU FOR HAVING FUN, PLAY THIS GAME MY WAY" attitude. Agent Kool-Aid posted:so when's the inevitable fork going to be established that removes all that dumb poo poo that's being added/changed Or this. I've been tempted, oh so tempted on several occasions, but general laziness and unfamiliarity with the language Crawl's written in has prevented me so far. WereVolvo fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 08:28
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Dungeon Crawl: SLASHEM Soup
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Nov 30, 2015 08:34
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it's probably inevitable, anyways. once a roguelike lives long enough it will start budding and produce offspring.
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Nov 30, 2015 08:35
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Maybe I'm misreading the intent behind this arithmetic, but... code:code:silentsnack fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 08:36
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Stoat posted:Dungeon Crawl: SLASHEM Soup Tales of Crawl'Eyal (Someone stop Lasty)
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Nov 30, 2015 08:53
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I'm usually a bit more on the accepting side (juggernauts, shrikes and new death cobs: largely cool; *negative randart things tolerable to interesting), but this amulet thing is bizarre. Mutation is a nasty thing that can sometimes severely gently caress a character up in a fashion that doesn't go away with more XP gained. And... it's instant. Any time a mutator has a line of effect to you, you have a non-negligible chance of a mutation. Unless mutators are going to see Malmutate resisted by MR or mutate get a "chant word of entropy" sort of change, that's just plain a "gently caress you". Even the most up-hasted firestorming deep elf of Vehumet can't be sure he's going to one-shot all cacodemons, especially if two appear from different directions. And orbs of fire... well, at least orbs of fire don't dig their own holes to get you out of your line-of-effect-breaking corridor. Dismissal... I can't ever see myself wearing that. I'm not opposed to it existing, but the amount of time I'd want it to wear is... roughly until another amulet drops. Well, some of the time. Some games I just plain wouldn't want it, but for a melee character in Lair it could help with scattering elephant/death yak packs and providing another hydra option if I'm missing the other standbys. Except swapping it gives contamination to the point of mutation.  Are there too few calls on cancellation potions? It's getting to feel like cancellation should rival curing for its spawn rate. I rarely wore Warding, but I can only see Dismissal as a strict decrease in utility; apart from the above singular example, I can't think of a time I'd wear dismissal over warding, if both were somehow available. And that's with the contam from swapping completely forgotten for now.Regen rots. Well. It's still my go-to for most situations, especially without warding or rMut, so... thanks for making that an easier choice? If I had a choice of the normal amulet types, regen was already always my standby unless clarity or rMut were situationally called for. The gently caress would I take it off for now? Baffling. I'd like to hear more about this amulet change, but only out of optimism. Because, so far, it's a weird choking-off of options and I'd be interested in at least hearing what the proposed improvements are. Because... this is supposed to be foundational to set up some improvements, right? Otherwise, it's just "pick your amulet and don't change it basically ever, and for 90% of players the pick is clarity or regen". We already have equipment you don't switch in combat; it's called your 'armour'. And it generally doesn't mutate or rot you to change it, just takes too much time to change for tactical considerations.
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Nov 30, 2015 09:41
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Apparently a long-standing nuisance has been secretly changed sometime, it's now again possible to do a case-sensitive regular expression match for force_mores. What does this mean in practise? You can cause a more message on every unique (except TRJ - code:rchandra fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 10:24
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Warding amulets just got a 'boost' too so that they'd work against ranged summoned enemy attacks too, right? It's too bad they made it a garbage amulet now. A ring of positive energy that teleports 10% of your exp away from you and gives you yellow contamination? Fuuuuuck that. This never would have happened if GOZAG/TRUMP was president dev.
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Nov 30, 2015 14:01
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Hey, remember a couple pages back when I mistakenly thought that Malmutate was resistible by MR? How about making that actually become true because holy poo poo why would you remove rMut before improving how Malmutate works first? Actually, you know what would be a better change? Malmutate only gives temporary mutations in all cases; leave permanent mutations for purple-chasers and divine 'gifts'. Also, warding was a great amulet and now it looks like total garbage. I'll also be throwing away regen amulets faster than normal to staple rCorr to my neck in the new branch of Dungeon Crawl: Lasty Soup where players will have to deal with corrosion branded weapons and acid bytes from death yaks. Edit: Bring back caustic hammer dwarves Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 14:07
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gently caress it, let's just make our own Gooncrawl, with blackjack and hookers. NO LASTY ALLOWED.
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Nov 30, 2015 14:25
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WereVolvo posted:gently caress it, let's just make our own Gooncrawl, with blackjack and hookers. NO LASTY ALLOWED. I'll start the
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Nov 30, 2015 14:33
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Add -Cast to all weaponry. Despite these helpful new changes, it's still unclear to new players that they shouldn't focus on melee. It might also be helpful to apply an innate -slaying penalty dependent on how many tiles are in clear LOS to your character to emphasize the importance of tactics.
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Nov 30, 2015 14:46
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I thought amulet/ring swapping was tactical. Last orb run I had 3 OOF's jump me at once. What was I supposed to do then? rMut and pray (literally).
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Nov 30, 2015 15:26
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Fhqwhgads posted:I thought amulet/ring swapping was tactical. Last orb run I had 3 OOF's jump me at once. What was I supposed to do then? rMut and pray (literally). Obviously you were supposed to lose since you didn't draw them to you one at a time by shouting from the exact distance where only one would hear it, then summoning a Malign Gateway to fight it while you hide outside of LoS. (Oops, sorry, guess Malign Gateway is getting nerfed now)
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Nov 30, 2015 15:38
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So with the resist mutation amulet gone, might as well list what's left to handle malmutation. Mutation resistance mutation (66% chance rank 1, same rank 2 but also affects mutation removal, mutation set becomes basically immutable at rank 3 outside of contam) Hat of the Alchemist (same as the now-gone amulet at 90%, but incredibly rare and not usable by formicids, unlucky demonspawn, or felids; auto-equip for everyone else) Being undead (starting as a mummy or ghoul, being sufficiently low on nutrition as a vampire, lichform; stops mutations but results in statdrain and rotting instead) Worshipping Zin (mutation protection depending on piety, max piety = complete immunity) Line-of-sight shenanigans (not reliable or possible at all times One-shotting them immediately (not reliable due to accuracy or just lovely damage rolls with melee, some are very VERY durable) And a list of what can malmutate you in terms of enemies: Neqoxecs, cacodemons, orbs of fire, shining eyes, wretched stars (temporary but multiple), and Mnoleg (also random pan lords) Neqoxecs, cacodemons, and wretched stars are common in the Abyss but rare to non-existent outside of there in a 3-rune game, shining eyes are notable in shapeshifters can turn into them unlike the others and like popping up in Slime, Mnoleg is in his pan floor, and orbs of fire are Zot and Zig only. Counting enemies that can summon malmutators raises the number significantly, since anyone with summon demon can get a neqoxec out of it and anyone with summon greater demon can get a cacodemon out of it, but the tactics for ruining summoners are generally much simpler/easier than for ruining malmutators once they pop up. I assume that most malmutator users will probably be changed to work more like wretched stars do in the near future, with this being just a painful intermediary step.
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Nov 30, 2015 15:41
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Sojenus posted:Add -Cast to all weaponry. Despite these helpful new changes, it's still unclear to new players that they shouldn't focus on melee. It might also be helpful to apply an innate -slaying penalty dependent on how many tiles are in clear LOS to your character to emphasize the importance of tactics. This is a stealth buff to nightstalker demonspawn, i assume you plan to balance this
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Nov 30, 2015 15:59
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Humans Among Us posted:This is a stealth buff to nightstalker demonspawn, i assume you plan to balance this Why would something as tactically rich as good RNG rolls need balancing? Still, if it proves to be an issue, Demonspawn will randomly be allocated negative mutations as well as their standard set in order to provide gameplay diversity and interesting choices.
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Nov 30, 2015 16:14
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Comparing Elf:3 in 0.17 vs trunk, I'm pretty convinced the AI change in trunk literally makes every ranged approach easier and even melee, but less of the vault is susceptible to kill holes. The side effect of this is basically that you get to fight 1-2 elf enemies at a time even if you make a crapton of noise just as long as you retreat to a safe spot once they lock on to you.the Orb of Zot posted:I assume that most malmutator users will probably be changed to work more like wretched stars do in the near future, with this being just a painful intermediary step. The wording in the commits very clearly take the form of "amulet reform", with rMut being caught in the crossfire. They weren't in need of changing TBH, and wretched star corrupting pulse isn't much better. You could have temporary malmutate not be smite targeted, but then that'd just be pretty lame and at worst I'll just want to fight it off with less dangerous enemies if I pile on too many. I don't think the game needs to shove more XP sinks down your throat, there's already skill drain, wretched stars/corrupters and stat drain. edit: Oh yeah, rMut is *only* 90%, hell yeah I'm going to try to avoid malmutate zaps if I can help it, I don't need teleportitis while clearing Zot. You don't need to remove the drat amulet to make me want to avoid malmutate whenever possible. apple fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 16:14
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what the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck are these changes who the gently caress thinks that malmutate is fun. who the gently caress thinks that "putting on an amulet and never taking it off ever because it's not worth it" is fun. rMut amulets being always worn in extended is not a sign that rMut amulets are flawed and need to be removed, it's a sign that malmutate monsters are flawed. It's a symptom, not a cause. Floodkiller posted:Hey, remember a couple pages back when I mistakenly thought that Malmutate was resistible by MR? How about making that actually become true because holy poo poo why would you remove rMut before improving how Malmutate works first? Actually, you know what would be a better change? Malmutate only gives temporary mutations in all cases; leave permanent mutations for purple-chasers and divine 'gifts'. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 16:36
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like has whoever made this changes ever played extended without rMut? especially as a melee-focused character. it sucks rear end. it's not impossible but it's not fun. the only times I've had to try doing that, I've quickly given up and just grabbed the orb because getting unavoidably randomly mutated is just really lovely
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Nov 30, 2015 16:42
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IronicDongz posted:like has whoever made this changes ever played extended without rMut? especially as a melee-focused character. it sucks rear end. it's not impossible but it's not fun. the only times I've had to try doing that, I've quickly given up and just grabbed the orb because getting unavoidably randomly mutated is just really lovely If I don't find rMut I don't play past three runes. And Zot is nasty enough with orbs of fire in general let alone them mutating you like it's going out of style. Like you said, it sounds like a problem with malmutate more than the bloody amulet. If you ditch the amulet why not add what Floodkiller was saying with magic resistance actually helping to block that poo poo (like it always should have) or that they are all temporary like wretched stars?
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Nov 30, 2015 16:59
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FulsomFrank posted:If I don't find rMut I don't play past three runes. And Zot is nasty enough with orbs of fire in general let alone them mutating you like it's going out of style. Because that's far more work than just telling players to play a drat wizard if they want to do more than 3 runes.
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Nov 30, 2015 17:04
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I'd rather see something like malmutate pumps you halfway or so to yellow glow per cast. Then contam mutation events are maybe toned down just a bit.
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Nov 30, 2015 17:15
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History lesson! There was once a mechanic in Crawl that was much despised. This mechanic sometimes caused the loss of something you thought was permanent to your character. However, this usually did not impact your ability to complete the game unless you intentionally played poorly around creatures who could inflict this upon you. Despite this, the majority of the player base proceeded to take irrational tactical responses to this mechanic, such as always wearing a piece of equipment that resisted this effect (only 90% of the time, but it was still viewed as better than 0%) instead of something that would actually improve their offensive or defensive capabilities. They would also perform potentially lethal actions like focusing on less dangerous monsters in encounters because they could inflict this mechanic (even though deadlier creatures could end the player's game due to this wrong choice). Of course, this doesn't sound similar at all to any situation that may have recently occurred due to a new change, so I don't know why I'm mentioning this now REMOVED mechanic.
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Nov 30, 2015 17:27
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If this is some weird intermediary step toward amulet reform why not do all your amulet reform and THEN push the changes?
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Nov 30, 2015 23:21
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Ramc posted:If this is some weird intermediary step toward amulet reform why not do all your amulet reform and THEN push the changes?
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Nov 30, 2015 23:22
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FactsAreUseless posted:Because it's Crawl. 
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Nov 30, 2015 23:27
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Crawl Dev is a bit like that old Superman cartoon with Metallo, where he wakes up and finds out he can't feel things anymore. Luthor told him that there are "adjustments to be made in the future", after he kills Superman. At some point, he comes back to the scientists and starts demanding the adjustments in advance, and they tell him that the adjustments to be made are on his end, he just needs to adjust to the fact that he's completely hosed. Amulet reform is part of a process. Step 1) Ruin everything. Step 2) Suck it down.
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