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Dexo posted:The thing is even when he was with Trish, he never actually allowed Trish and Jessica to run their independent plans without him having to interfere or mention how he could solve this problem for them. Even when he let them do it he did nothing but mention how his plan was totally right and they totally need to listen to him. he spent most of his time with Trish telling her that Jessica was wrong and they should be killing him. Yeah. All of this is why I didn't think he was all that great. It felt like a missed opportunity to see a character like this come to grips with his own weakness. Honestly for me it all comes down to that moment in the hallway where he's cool with Trish. We could have had it all but they needed one more fight before the Kilgrave showdown. polish sausage posted:How I could I possibly come to a such a conclusion? Thinking that the show undermined its own message does not mean that I think Jessica Jones the character is stupid and evil, or that she made wrong choices on purpose. And you're the one who keeps pushing on this, I'm responding to you because you keep making overemotional aspersions about whether or not I liked Jessica enough because of my Simpson opinions, and it irks me when someone tries to do this over a tv show.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:17
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zoux posted:Kind of a commentary on how sexual abuse vs. men is swept under the rug and that men are just expected to "man up" and deal with it and that's a way that the patriarchy damages men, innit. And that's good. But a character that is nothing but an archetype or a deconstruction of an archetype, like Simpson is being boiled down to in this thread, is a poo poo character. I think people are forgetting how genuinely distraught he was when he thought he'd killed Trish, to the extent that he was bringing a battering ram to the door to verify the presence of a body at the risk of hugely incriminating himself.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:17
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The Sharmat posted:I like how Simpson gets no sympathy for breaking down after being mindraped because he's a dude and the only ones that do sympathize with him miss the whole point of the show. This is part of why I was disappointed in his characterization. They had a chance to do something different with a male victim of abuse, and they didn't take it.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:19
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The Sharmat posted:And that's good. I think actually a lot of the dissatisfaction with the character stems from this, as you want to like him in the beginning, and he's cast as the reasonable, nice standard protag character so it's hard to reconcile with what he becomes. You could write an opposite show that was story beat for beat Jessica Jones but with Simpson struggling against well meaning women that just don't understand what Good Men Have to Do Sometimes casting Simpson as the protagonist, and in fact we're trained to identify with this type of character since he headlines 95% of movies.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:21
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The Sharmat posted:And that's good. I think it's just an exaggerated counter reaction to the Nuke was Right opinion, so now he has to be a Tvtropes-esque walking clever point (which would have been poo poo writing in a different way).
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Nov 30, 2015 23:22
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It doesn't bother me that he breaks down, goes nuts on substance abuse, and dies. A character arc doesn't have to be positive. I was more talking about the viewer reactions, though also a bit how he's just swept under the rug post death. Trish has I think one line about him afterwards?mycot posted:I think it's just an exaggerated counter reaction to the Nuke was Right opinion, so now he has to be a Tvtropes-esque walking clever point (which would have been poo poo writing in a different way). Yeah that makes sense. I've succumbed to stuff like this myself. seems to be a natural human reaction.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:22
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The Sharmat posted:It doesn't bother me that he breaks down, goes nuts on substance abuse, and dies. A character arc doesn't have to be positive. I was more talking about the viewer reactions, though also a bit how he's just swept under the rug post death. Trish has I think one line about him afterwards? He's not dead though, is he? mycot posted:I think it's just an exaggerated counter reaction to the Nuke was Right opinion, so now he has to be a Tvtropes-esque walking clever point (which would have been poo poo writing in a different way). No I think he's a well drawn character with clear motivations and backstory, but I think he also works as the archetype or w/e. Is it kind of weird that there haven't been a bunch of interviews with Rosenberg, et al, I'd like to know if the creators intended a lot of these interpretations or if it's just a product of my diseased SJW mind.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:24
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zoux posted:He's not dead though, is he? I thought he was but looking back it's left ambiguous whether they're just collecting a body for cover up or if he's still alive and they're going to do more with him.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:27
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I don't think Simpson's dead. I think the government just came and collected him again.The Sharmat posted:But a character that is nothing but an archetype or a deconstruction of an archetype, like Simpson is being boiled down to in this thread, is a poo poo character. I think people are forgetting how genuinely distraught he was when he thought he'd killed Trish, to the extent that he was bringing a battering ram to the door to verify the presence of a body at the risk of hugely incriminating himself. You're right that he shouldn't be boiled down to a strawmannish archetype, though. Ultimately, he has a point, but Jessica and Trish had better points. Ultimately, Jessica fucks up, but he fucks up more.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:30
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HIJK posted:This is part of why I was disappointed in his characterization. They had a chance to do something different with a male victim of abuse, and they didn't take it. There was more than one male character of abuse. Is malcolm's arc not worth mentioning? People being surprised at nuke becoming nuke is really questionable considering he suffers another severe trauma by having a bomb blow up and kill his boys. In that hurt he blames jessica, and wants to get on her level to dish out his vengeance, and considering the fact that he's tasted the power of the pills before, well, makes it completely logical for him to go straight for them. Nuke isn't "right" because he comes from a place of total hurt and destruction. He doesn't care who dies in the process just like kilgrave. IMO nuke is a totally fine character because he is likeable like most people say, but he was always at odds with and had disrespect towards jessica. He even goes on that rant about how she isn't a real hero just because she has strength when he was testing out kilgraves prison(there something about communication worth mentioning about this scene but I can't elaborate at the moment). At any rate, The seed of his eventual development had been planted early on, likeable dude or no.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:34
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HIJK posted:Yeah. All of this is why I didn't think he was all that great. It felt like a missed opportunity to see a character like this come to grips with his own weakness. The problem was he wasn't doing that out of any particular need to come to grips with his weakness. He was compelled to show Trish that he was a great guy and not like the crazy person Killgrave made him seem like he was. He was doing it out of his own ego and desire to make himself feel like less of a monster. If he truly cared about Trish in those moments he could have easily just apologized said it's not me and walked away from the situation, without having the need to be validated, if she doesn't immediately allow him in. Maybe it was just me but that entire scene of him sitting in the hallway continually wearing her down came off creepy as poo poo.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:38
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Another thing about Simpson: creepy black program doctor guy just leaves the addictive pills with him with minimum oversight. Either the doctor is actually an idiot, or Simpson used to be level headed and reliable before Kilgrave got to him.BrianWilly posted:You're right that he shouldn't be boiled down to a strawmannish archetype, though. Ultimately, he has a point, but Jessica and Trish had better points. Ultimately, Jessica fucks up, but he fucks up more. That's why she's the protagonist. Simpson suffers some of the same things she does and it ruins him. Jessica is stronger, faces her fears, and recovers in some sense, though she fucks up along the way as anyone would. Simpson can't deal with it and destroys himself. Dexo posted:The problem was he wasn't doing that out of any particular need to come to grips with his weakness. He wanted forgiveness. That's selfish, sure. But almost everyone is selfish in that way. Jessica wants the same thing. Jessica sleeping with Luke Cage under false pretenses is creepier than what Simpson does there.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:38
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The Sharmat posted:
Didn't she forgive him(at least say she did), and then ask him to leave, and he still didn't?
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Nov 30, 2015 23:45
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I don't remember, but a terse "I forgive you" over an intercom is probably not the kind of absolution most people look for.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:46
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Yeah but the point is essentially that even though they are both victims, he is not entitled to forgiveness from her and essentially trapping her in her home by sitting outsite the door harassing her until she forgives him is not really appropriate behavior. I mean, I actually liked that scene a lot, and I'm not really saying he's a bad person for doing that by itself., but the more we learn about him the more context we have for his actions.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:48
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No one is entitled to forgiveness. That's why it's forgiveness. I don't think most of the people Kilgrave violates are engaging in appropriate behavior.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:49
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Malcom, and Suit guy. Edit: Nevermind. Suit guy attacked Jessica too.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:50
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Snak posted:Yeah but the point is essentially that even though they are both victims, he is not entitled to forgiveness from her and essentially trapping her in her home by sitting outsite the door harassing her until she forgives him is not really appropriate behavior. I mean, I actually liked that scene a lot, and I'm not really saying he's a bad person for doing that by itself., but the more we learn about him the more context we have for his actions. There are often characters in feminist literature who accidentally do a "bad man" thing that makes a woman feel scared or threatened. Since they don't see themselves as bad guys, they get really worried about what they did and that it will reflect badly on them (in addition to legit regret over the incident). In trying to atone for the situation and prove they are "good guys", however, they again inadvertently do things to worsen the problem. The thematic thrust is that masculinity culture causes men to not realize what they're doing is scary. That's the read I took. You could also throw in some thematic links to how women often forgive their abusers and believe them when they say they've changed, but I'm not sure the material supports that as strongly.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:51
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Dexo posted:Malcom, and Suit guy. Malcolm spies on Jessica in exchange for drugs. Suit guy is convinced to beat her up by a crazy person.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:51
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The Sharmat posted:Malcolm spies on Jessica in exchange for drugs. Suit guy is convinced to beat her up by a crazy person. To be fair He was still under Kilgrave's control at that point. Financial, and control via addiction are still valid.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:53
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Dexo posted:To be fair He was still under Kilgrave's control at that point. Financial, and control via addiction are still valid. After he isn't he dismembers a corpse to conceal a murder then strings along the corpse's sister for days to avoid having to see her reaction.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:53
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zoux posted:There are often characters in feminist literature who accidentally do a "bad man" thing that makes a woman feel scared or threatened. Since they don't see themselves as bad guys, they get really worried about what they did and that it will reflect badly on them (in addition to legit regret over the incident). In trying to atone for the situation and prove they are "good guys", however, they again inadvertently do things to worsen the problem. The thematic thrust is that masculinity culture causes men to not realize what they're doing is scary. That's the read I took. Yeah. I just re-watched True Detective (the first and only season) again, and Woody Harrelson's character is one of the best examples of this I've seen on screen. He's misogynistic and controlling, but he simply doesn't understand other mindsets. He understands that saying nice things, giving complements, etc. are nice things to do, but he never quite wraps his head around the fact that his entire worldview is what's wrong and why he's an rear end in a top hat. Simpson is similar to this. My female bff's ex-boyfriend was like this. He was a former marine, macho-type, who understood what behavior society and women expected from him, but it was all just behavior. He didn't respect women, he just knew that acting like he did was a hoop he had to jump through for approval. Most people who act like this don't even realize it. I don't think, for example, that Simpson realized he was being a piece of poo poo EVER, during the whole course of the series. In a lot of ways, his arc is very similar to Jessica's, except he's weaker and rather than learning and changing a little bit, he falls farther into his worldview because it's his safe place.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:58
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I really don't think Simpson's story is about men vs. women specifically so much as about power and safety.
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Dec 1, 2015 00:03
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I mean, I'm just saying that Simpson exhibits a common male mindset that I recognize from both fiction and real life. I'm not sure that I would say it's "about men vs. women" exactly. I would say that the way the genders treat each other is a theme in the show, though. Obviously it's about how human beings treat each-other, but it has a few things to say about gender issues in society. edit: For example, the way the Robyn behaves towards Jessica would be different if Jessica was not female and Ruben was not a straight male.
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Dec 1, 2015 00:07
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Would the way Simpson behaves be different if it was a male civilian Kilgrave had him murder? I'm not so sure. Well, besides the cunnilingus, of course.
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Dec 1, 2015 00:09
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Especially the head.
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Dec 1, 2015 00:13
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polish sausage posted:There was more than one male character of abuse. Is malcolm's arc not worth mentioning? Malcolm is a great character and I think they did really well with him. I'm not currently talking about what the show did well though I could if you wanted. Dexo posted:The problem was he wasn't doing that out of any particular need to come to grips with his weakness. I'm sure that's how the writers intended him to come off but I actually liked it because it looked like he was guarding her door and making sure no one else got through. They were sitting down so they were clearly talking about stuff for a while, sharing childhood stories and empathizing with each other. Trish didn't look worn down to me, and they were opening up to one another.
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Dec 1, 2015 00:17
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HIJK posted:I'm sure that's how the writers intended him to come off but I actually liked it because it looked like he was guarding her door and making sure no one else got through. They were sitting down so they were clearly talking about stuff for a while, sharing childhood stories and empathizing with each other. Trish didn't look worn down to me, and they were opening up to one another. Because of this very thing, I'm not sure that's actually how the writers intended him to come off.
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Dec 1, 2015 00:21
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HIJK posted:I'm not currently talking about what the show did well though I could if you wanted. It would be better than you casting your judgement on the writing of a character whose scenes you admitted to fast forwarding through, yeah.
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Dec 1, 2015 00:44
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The Sharmat posted:He wanted forgiveness. That's selfish, sure. But almost everyone is selfish in that way. Jessica wants the same thing. Jessica sleeping with Luke Cage under false pretenses is creepier than what Simpson does there. Sure, probably. Like others have said, Jessica struggles with similar issues. But she was aware it was hosed up, felt bad about it, and eventually felt the need to try to stop and maybe even make up for it. Nothing like that can be said for Simpson. Looking back, his almost meet-cute esque hallway scene has a lot of messed up elements, like the not-so-innocent barbie dreamhouse inferno. Originally it seemed like it reflected really well on Trish as a really forgiving, kind person, but it probably reflects more on her tendency to allow abusers into her life.
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Dec 1, 2015 01:12
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Simpson doggedly begging for forgiveness is not remotely on the same level as what Jessica does to Luke.
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Dec 1, 2015 01:15
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The Sharmat posted:Simpson doggedly begging for forgiveness is not remotely on the same level as what Jessica does to Luke. Its not a competetion. Just cause what jessica does is more hosed up(I think you're right), you can't begrudge other people for seeing that as creepy. I personally didn't see simpson's behavior creepy, but his story about torching a dreamhouse and getting his soldiers killed, did raise a bit of a flag and puts some perspective on his psyche considering all that would happen.
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Dec 1, 2015 01:19
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I'm saying there's a bit of a double standard in how it's being treated.
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Dec 1, 2015 01:34
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There really isn't? Jessica's fuckups are the story. The supporting characters have less developed arcs because they are supporting characters. Jessica is only able to succeed when she trusts her friends and overcomes her fears. Simpson does neither of these things. That's why he fails. The reason he does neither of these things is up for debate, but I think it's because of his world view, which may not be his fault. It's not strange that we have more sympathy for Jessica. She is the protagonist and the story is structured to show us her ups and downs. As a supporting character, Simpson's story is simpler, because his entire story is just an element of what is ultimately Jessica's story. If you wanted, you could go all "Wide Sargasso Sea" on this story and retell it from Simpson's point of view and make the same events much more sympathetic. That's just not the story we have in front of us, because this story is called Jessica Jones.
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Dec 1, 2015 02:14
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He's being stripped to a bare MRA strawman by some people is what I'm talking about. Seems disproportional. And the comparison isn't just with Jessica, but with all Kilgrave's victims. Edit: To make it clear, I'm not saying you shouldn't have more sympathy for Jessica. You absolutely should, and I do as well. I'm saying having no sympathy whatsoever for Simpson and gleefully crowing about how he's socking it to those MRA shitlord "nice guys" while watching Simpson's scenes is really weird. The Sharmat fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Dec 1, 2015 |
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Dec 1, 2015 02:17
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The Sharmat posted:He's being stripped to a bare MRA strawman by some people is what I'm talking about. Seems disproportional. And the comparison isn't just with Jessica, but with all Kilgrave's victims. I think people in this thread at least are just getting a little too in love with the "lol red pill" joke. I mean, it's funny, but it's like how "man, Stormtroopers never seemed to hit anything" gradually turned into Stormtroopers not being able to hit a wall from the inside of the room.
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Dec 1, 2015 02:20
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The Sharmat posted:He's being stripped to a bare MRA strawman by some people is what I'm talking about. Seems disproportional. And the comparison isn't just with Jessica, but with all Kilgrave's victims. If your saying that Nuke is a more layered character than yeah I totally agree. Is arc is almost tragic, his motivation has an understandable logic to it considering his world view, the guy never really had a chance. in one respect he could be a cautionary tale for what jessica's path could have been had she not finally relented and accepted help from her adopted sister. polish sausage fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Dec 1, 2015 |
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Dec 1, 2015 02:30
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polish sausage posted:If your saying that Nuke is more layered character than yeah I totally agree. Is arc is almost tragic, his motivation has an understandable logic to them considering his world view, the guy never really had chance. in one respect he could be a cautionary tale for what jessica's path could have been had she not finally relented and accepted help from her adopted sister. I agree with all of this. edit: Also, Simpson going back into the program seems like it could have some parallels to if Trish had started working with her mother again. Simpson falling back on what he knew, what was familiar to him, is a totally normal behavior. Unlike him, Trish has learned, with Jessica's help, that she is better off without that environment that is toxic to her. Snak fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Dec 1, 2015 |
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Dec 1, 2015 02:30
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Snak posted:I agree with all of this. Ditto.
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Dec 1, 2015 02:40
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No one is denying he's a fully realized character but discussion of his thematic purpose isn't gleefully sticking it to MRAs.
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Dec 1, 2015 02:47
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