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A Tartan Tory posted:Did someone say space mad? I dunno man.. A Viper to Sag A is dangerously close to surpassing your madness.
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Dec 2, 2015 14:12
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tooterfish posted:This is just my opinion, but for anyone following build guides like this it's important to remember you don't have to immediately fill a ship with A class poo poo straight away.  Not disagreeing, though. If he had given a budget in the 80-90m range, I'd probably have recommended something very similar to yours. Though I'd go for either fixed cannons or gimballed multicannons, as I'm not a fan of gimbals on normal cannons. Libluini posted:Another thing is, nothing forces you to take always the largest A-class equipment possible. The Explo-Python I linked earlier for example has a A-class powerplant downgraded several sizes. It still gives enough power for weapons and poo poo and you get the heat dissipation bonus of an A-class plant. But you save an ungodly amount of money because the A-class is several classes smaller then what would normally go into that slot. I do always recommend going A-rated (regardless of size) when budget allows, though, if only for the heat dissipation benefits.
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Dec 2, 2015 14:18
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Helter Skelter posted:He gave a budget, I built something within that budget. 
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Dec 2, 2015 14:31
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Astroniomix posted:Yes, in lore artificial gravity was never invented in the elite universe. IIRC even supercruise is a fairly "recent" creation. Yeah, IIRC the hyperdrives in the earlier Elite/Frontier games could take a week or more per jump.
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Dec 2, 2015 14:59
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In Elite they were instantaneous. In Frontier they appeared instantaneous to the traveller, but weeks would pass to external observers. And afterwards you'd need to spend a few days accelerating/decelerating in normal space. Everything made more sense in Frontier, but waiting three weeks real time to emerge from hyperspace and accelerate in system doesn't sound like fun, so for multiplayer reasons they made some compromises.
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Dec 2, 2015 15:15
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I guess I don't mind super cruise very much even if it is a royal pain in the rear end the way it's implemented. When I hit 800c crossing a 120k LS void to the second star in the system there's no loving reason I would want to start slowing down half way there, but that's just me. Let me zip through that bitch and make my own mistakes.
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Dec 2, 2015 16:46
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I don't know what the last patch did but I have absolute dogshit performance inside a station. Out in the wild it's fine but it's chugging along at what feels like 15-20 FPS when I'm reloading and turning in bounties and the like.
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Dec 2, 2015 16:53
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LCL-Dead posted:I guess I don't mind super cruise very much even if it is a royal pain in the rear end the way it's implemented. If you don't have anything locked as your target you should be able to do that.
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Dec 2, 2015 16:55
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Space Skeleton posted:If you don't have anything locked as your target you should be able to do that. Nah, you'll still slow down as you pass the "halfway" point to the other star because gravity governs supercruise speed/efficiency.
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Dec 2, 2015 17:18
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Nah, you'll still slow down as you pass the "halfway" point to the other star because gravity governs supercruise speed/efficiency. I know that it's not science and it can be handwaved with "it doesn't follow physics" but usually things don't slow down when going INTO a gravity well
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Dec 2, 2015 17:24
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LCL-Dead posted:I guess I don't mind super cruise very much even if it is a royal pain in the rear end the way it's implemented. I never thought I'd say I wish for EVE's dull autopilot travel, yet here we are I'm kind of amazed at how many people consider it 'immersive' to sit still for tens of minutes at a time doing nothing but an occasional twitch of the stick, a task that requires a modicum of attention but leaves no room for interaction. I mean, I understand why people like games like Euro Truck Simulator, or take realtime flights in Microsoft Flight Simulator, but in those games there's a little more to the scenery than a static png skybox or whatever.
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Dec 2, 2015 17:25
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I've said it before, but my average supercruise journey is only a minute or two long. Even 100,000LS ones only take five minutes or so. It's only the absurdly long distance ones that take tens of minutes, and they're pretty rare so it's not that hard to just avoid them (seriously, no one except the terminally insane ever went to Alpha Centuri in Frontier either). If you don't have the attention span to pilot a ship for a whole 60 seconds I've no idea what to say to you. tooterfish fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 17:34
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tooterfish posted:I've said it before, but my average supercruise journey is only a minute or two long. Even 100,000LS ones only take five minutes or so. It's only the absurdly long distance ones that take tens of minutes, and they're pretty rare so it's not that hard to just avoid them (seriously, no one except the terminally insane ever went to Alpha Centuri in Frontier either). The problem is that travel is by it's very nature- dull. There is nothing interesting to do while doing it but alt tabbing and shitposting on SA. In doing so that helps break the immersion.
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Dec 2, 2015 17:48
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tooterfish posted:If you don't have the attention span to pilot a ship for a whole 60 seconds I've no idea what to say to you. This
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Dec 2, 2015 17:50
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Nelson Mandingo posted:The problem is that travel is by it's very nature- dull. There is nothing interesting to do while doing it but alt tabbing and shitposting on SA. In doing so that helps break the immersion. You know, not everyone gets all upset when a game interrupts their mindless min/maxing with loving gameplay, so I'd personally rather have more poo poo happen in supercruise than cut it out all together and turn the game into a charmless EvE clone.
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Dec 2, 2015 17:53
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Nelson Mandingo posted:The problem is that travel is by it's very nature- dull. There is nothing interesting to do while doing it but alt tabbing and shitposting on SA. In doing so that helps break the immersion. Most of the time that's not even possible, because in the time you need to alt tab and write a post, your ship has already passed by the station and you have to turn back again
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Dec 2, 2015 17:53
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So I know that the Sirius Corp dudes offer a 15% off deal on Outfitting prices in their space, and the Python's price tag feels like that might finally be worth bothering with. Is there a well known system in Li Yong-Rui's space that has most stuff available?Nelson Mandingo posted:The problem is that travel is by it's very nature- dull. There is nothing interesting to do while doing it but alt tabbing and shitposting on SA. In doing so that helps break the immersion. But they have Space Internet. 
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Dec 2, 2015 17:54
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Adult Sword Owner posted:I know that it's not science and it can be handwaved with "it doesn't follow physics" but usually things don't slow down when going INTO a gravity well It has to do with the drives, which work by compressing space in front and behind your ship. Gravity makes the drive less efficient so you slow down when in gravity wells.
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Dec 2, 2015 17:54
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tooterfish posted:If you don't have the attention span to pilot a ship for a whole 60 seconds I've no idea what to say to you. No, see, I do want to pilot the ship for a whole 60 seconds, not stare at it while I wait for it to get to the point where something that can reasonably be called 'flying' happens once again. Most sub-1k ls journeys are pretty satisfactory, a minute or so as you say, ranging from barely noticeable to inoffensive at worst. Above that you start getting into several minutes or more of having to babysit the ship, not able to have any meaningful interaction but also not able to completely divert to something else. It's dull as dirt and if you're OK with it more power to you, but it's bad game design. Plus, it's not a big issue, but wouldn't it be great if you could visit those remote outposts on the absolute rear end end of nowhere without having to bust your balls to do it? I think that'd be cool. A more straightforward jump system would probably be the single most astounding improvement that could be made to this game.
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Dec 2, 2015 17:57
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Galaga Galaxian posted:So I know that the Sirius Corp dudes offer a 15% off deal on Outfitting prices in their space, and the Python's price tag feels like that might finally be worth bothering with. Is there a well known system in Li Yong-Rui's space that has most stuff available? Lembava, Diaguandri, Tote. Between those three you should find everything you need.
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Dec 2, 2015 18:01
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tooterfish posted:Yes very zen, playing without playing. you sure showed that argument no one made who's boss
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Dec 2, 2015 18:05
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tooterfish posted:Yes very zen, playing without playing. While I too don't want cutting out supercruise, I think having something in the game that teleports you directly to whatever your target is in the system would be pretty handy, like jumping a few kilometers outside a targeted space port. That and it would solve the "takes 5 minutes to travel to station in system" problem that nobody likes. Hell the easiest way to do it would be add the interdictor minigame to FSD travel between systems, and if you fail it you get put somewhere random in the system- which is potentially fatal. Nelson Mandingo fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 18:09
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Cathair posted:No, see, I do want to pilot the ship for a whole 60 seconds, not stare at it while I wait for it to get to the point where something that can reasonably be called 'flying' happens once again. The point about the massive journeys is a valid one in my opinion, and it is something Frontier have addressed. When they'll actually get around to doing something about them is anyone's guess, but it is on their radar. For the other point, I'd rather supercruise have more compelling things to do during it than cut travel times dramatically (more interesting scanning/USS mechanics, perhaps anomalous areas and other "terrain" you can avoid or chase people into, and more ships behaving dynamically instead of the static conflict zones and poo poo we have now). Zero travel times would cut player/NPC interactions outside mandated zones to practically zero, and I can't imagine how that would be any better that what's there now even from your point of view, you're just shortening the time you get from one spreadsheet to another, and that's not terribly good game design either IMO. Bushiz posted:you sure showed that argument no one made who's boss tooterfish fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 18:11
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I've gotten used to it and it's less time consuming/boring than Supercruise, but E:D's hyperspace jumps are pretty awful as well. It's just loading screen -> turn around -> press button and wait -> loading screen -> turn around, etc. The funny thing is, the pattern it uses of dropping you in at the center of each new system is exactly the same as in Escape Velocity, but in EV, you were doing realspace maneuvering to prevent yourself from being thrown too far into un-jumpable gravity, and also maybe having to dodge pirates. There was a rhythm and a skill to it that, while simple, was gratifying to get the hang of and made the game flow instead of putting you to sleep. In this way, E:D's interstellar travel is an inferior version of what we had in a 19-year-old 2D spacegame. As far as more similar 3D flight sims go, the system Independence War 2 used of jumping between Lagrange points was a far better conceived method, offering a lot more interaction within each solar system as well as some semblance of navigation and having to pay attention to where stellar objects were. Hell, E:D could stand to learn a lot from I-War 2. 
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Dec 2, 2015 18:19
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Netflix and oh poo poo i missed the disengage spot
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Dec 2, 2015 18:31
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I think it would be cool if you could plan a route in system like manuver nodes in kerbal. Throttle up and head for the target, flip halfway if you stayed in the gas the whole time, and brake to rendezvous. Is there anyway to make slowing down in super cruise less frustrating? The auto braking seems close enough that I want to let it do it but it's off enough that I'll overshoot or stop to early almost every time. Sitting there trying to micro manage a throttle that moves on its own gets old quick.
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Dec 2, 2015 18:33
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Cathair posted:I've gotten used to it and it's less time consuming/boring than Supercruise, but E:D's hyperspace jumps are pretty awful as well. It's just loading screen -> turn around -> press button and wait -> loading screen -> turn around, etc. The funny thing is, the pattern it uses of dropping you in at the center of each new system is exactly the same as in Escape Velocity, but in EV, you were doing realspace maneuvering to prevent yourself from being thrown too far into un-jumpable gravity, and also maybe having to dodge pirates. There was a rhythm and a skill to it that, while simple, was gratifying to get the hang of and made the game flow instead of putting you to sleep. In this way, E:D's interstellar travel is an inferior version of what we had in a 19-year-old 2D spacegame. You say that, but people still throw themselves into suns and get burned quite literally, so E:D still needs some rythm and skill. Also, in the bubble pirates turn up regularly, so dodging pirates is also something you have to do in E:D. So I guess you're suffering from some very deeply rose-tinted nostalgia glasses here.
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Dec 2, 2015 18:35
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EMERGENCY DISENGAGE
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Dec 2, 2015 18:35
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RearmingStrafbomber posted:Operation Last Dance (for the Viper MkIII) begins the journey toward the core. 
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Dec 2, 2015 18:37
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tooterfish posted:
That's because it isn't loving gameplay, it's an annoying and (I can't believe I'm actually saying this un-ironicly) immersion breaking delay that serves no function other than to increase the time spent performing an already tedious task. It doesn't matter how many times you kill them, you'll get chain interdicted by the exact same NPC less than 30 seconds after you just killed him. Exploring vault 111 to find a way out is gameplay, having to run 3 laps around it before you can unseal the door isn't. That's called tedium.
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Dec 2, 2015 18:41
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I get the immersion thing and I don't really have a side on this debate but if you use the term gameplay when talking about minutes of time spent in supercruise watching numbers tick down, well, I have nothing nice to say so I'm gonna take a leaf out of my momma's book and not say anything at all. EDIT: Not referencing the post above me with this comment, just to clarify.
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Dec 2, 2015 18:45
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Frontier should rip out the interdiction "get the little circle in the big circle" minigame and just straight up plagiarize and subtitute in the combat minigames from Undertale
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Dec 2, 2015 18:46
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Anyone else ever have missions randomly disappear? I had a couple pirate hunting missions that were worth 1.8 million each, that had over a week left on the timer, and now they're gone 
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Dec 2, 2015 18:49
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tooterfish posted:That was the original design, no one wanted it. They even delayed development to put the current one in. Why am I not surprised? Frontier seems to have some bizarre and archaic ideas about game design philosophy, but I'm never sure how much of what comes out is their fault and how much is mandated by a playerbase that earnestly wants to play an ancient game that has long since been outclassed by other old games. Much like millions of other nerds, I've been really hopeful about the resurgence of open-world space games in recent years, but I guess we might wait a long time yet for one that isn't held hostage by awful grognards and also actually exists. tooterfish posted:For the other point, I'd rather supercruise have more compelling things to do during it than cut travel times dramatically (more interesting scanning/USS mechanics, perhaps anomalous areas and other "terrain" you can avoid or chase people into, and more ships behaving dynamically instead of the static conflict zones and poo poo we have now). Zero travel times would cut player/NPC interactions outside mandated zones to practically zero, and I can't imagine how that would be any better that what's there now even from your point of view, you're just shortening the time you get from one spreadsheet to another, and that's not terribly good game design either IMO. It's hardly a complete rebuttal, but I could point out that player/NPC interactions outside of mandated zones already is practically zero. The vast majority of the action is found at static points like resource extraction zones or nav beacons. Signal sources may be outside of mandated zones, but I don't find that fact particularly compelling, because they're just hilariously low-effort random spawns that seem to exist only as a stopgap measure to compensate for the lack of lifelike traffic at points of interest- once again something that I-War 2 did way better. NPCs in supercruise might as well be scenery behind a glass wall for all that you can interact with them, seeing as most ships don't have the space for specialized interdiction equipment. Oolite actually had a decent idea in this regard, where just intersecting other flights was enough to sloppily drop them from cruise via masslock. Also, I never said travel had to be instant, just kept down to the timeframe of a sub-1k ls trip, and given some form of optional autopilot so that you're not having to make tiny manual adjustments in the year 3000. This also doesn't preclude deep space fuckery in any way- you could have pirates setting up large interdiction fields at points between known trade hubs that would catch ships flying through them, or you could be doing scans to suss out traces of bounties hiding out in random nowhere precisely because no one has reason to go there. Cathair fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 18:49
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I had the grand idea of "I'll be an explorer, I want to see the cool poo poo!" but that got shot down really quickly with how mindnumbingly tedious it is to fly to every body in a system and surface scan it. Smaller bodies require that you get really close to actually scan them, so you can't even do it from a few thousand light seconds away like with stars. I pretty much only bother to scan anything if its a water world, black hole, or neutron star.
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Dec 2, 2015 18:49
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Nation posted:EMERGENCY DISENGAGE This. See how close you can stop when you're travelling at light speed
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Dec 2, 2015 18:54
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Nelson Mandingo posted:While I too don't want cutting out supercruise, I think having something in the game that teleports you directly to whatever your target is in the system would be pretty handy I've posted this before but here it is again: ED should go further with what it takes from I-War 2. Supercruise is almost exactly the same as the interplanetary "linear displacement drive" mode from that, but even with LDS some trips could take a while. So they added a form of minor jumping where you could warp from any Lagrange point to any other Lagrange point in the system. Not only does this add convenience, it adds logical traffic bottlenecks close to planets. The current middle-of-nowhere events like conflict zones and security checkpoints could and should be shifted to these L-points. Suddenly civil war would matter a lot more as it disrupts travel in the afflicted system. Pirates would have better places to lurk, and smuggling would have more consistent scan risks. Best of all, in I-War 2 you'd sometimes have a spectacular traffic accident when a huge ship exits into a smaller one.
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Dec 2, 2015 18:56
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Astroniomix posted:That's because it isn't loving gameplay, it's an annoying and (I can't believe I'm actually saying this un-ironicly) immersion breaking delay that serves no function other than to increase the time spent performing an already tedious task. It doesn't matter how many times you kill them, you'll get chain interdicted by the exact same NPC less than 30 seconds after you just killed him. Stacking missions while staring at the TV, that's what's breaking the NPC interactions and turning the journey into a constant slog, because the designers clearly haven't taken into account people would actually do that and put a cap in place (yeah, they're learning as they go). I'm not even arguing they couldn't be a lot more interesting, just that they only become the terrible game stopping mire if you've gone out of your way play that way. Cathair posted:Why am I not surprised? Frontier seems to have some bizarre and archaic ideas about game design philosophy, but I'm never sure how much of what comes out is their fault and how much is mandated by a playerbase that earnestly wants to play an ancient game that has long since been outclassed by other old games. Much like millions of other nerds, I've been really hopeful about the resurgence of open-world space games in recent years, but I guess we might wait a long time yet for one that isn't held hostage by awful grognards and also actually exists. :v tooterfish fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 19:03
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Libluini posted:You say that, but people still throw themselves into suns and get burned quite literally, so E:D still needs some rythm and skill. Also, in the bubble pirates turn up regularly, so dodging pirates is also something you have to do in E:D. Not at all! I've actually played the mostly-competent open-source EV remake Endless Sky quite recently, and put a bit of time into it. And in ES, the author put in a bit of soft autopilot where it keeps making jumps as long as you don't make any movement inputs, because he knew even EV's jumping got old after a while. The comparison to interdictions and falling into stars don't fly because EV didn't use a realistic scale, you were doing things in a format that's comparable to E:D's flying gameplay while out of supercruise. When you reoriented in EV you were grappling momentum using the normal, fun ship flight controls, and when there were enemies you were taking immediate tactical action against other ships shooting at you. It's a very different thing from having some lovely interdiction minigame pop up, or dodging an invisible barrier around a star that threatens to jarringly disrupt gameplay if you happen to hit it.
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Dec 2, 2015 19:06
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Sard posted:I've posted this before but here it is again: ED should go further with what it takes from I-War 2. Supercruise is almost exactly the same as the interplanetary "linear displacement drive" mode from that, but even with LDS some trips could take a while. So they added a form of minor jumping where you could warp from any Lagrange point to any other Lagrange point in the system. Not only does this add convenience, it adds logical traffic bottlenecks close to planets. The current middle-of-nowhere events like conflict zones and security checkpoints could and should be shifted to these L-points. Suddenly civil war would matter a lot more as it disrupts travel in the afflicted system. Pirates would have better places to lurk, and smuggling would have more consistent scan risks. Best of all, in I-War 2 you'd sometimes have a spectacular traffic accident when a huge ship exits into a smaller one. Hell yeah! A parked megafreighter in front of a Lagrange point is even more fun than watching an E:D npc accidentally smear across the back of a station. Plus there's a cheat mod that lets you use your remote flight override on anything. 
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Dec 2, 2015 19:12
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