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Angry Grimace posted:Shadow Over Innsmouth is an HP Lovecraft story about how the townsfolk in Innsmouth are actually worshipers/descendants of C'thulu and its spawn who are born as humans and transform into fish people when they get older. I know. I mentioned that a while ago that the set name seemed like a reference to The Shadow Over Innsmouth. So again, totally in flavor.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:33
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Madmarker posted:No what you get is a bunch of cards with walls of incomprehensible text. It has two keywords, one of which is evergreen. Angry Grimace posted:\ To be fair, the eldrazi faction keywording is pretty bad. Their two actual keywords don't do anything on their own, and their non-keyworded abilities (process/scion) take up five lines of text every time they appear.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:39
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Lottery of Babylon posted:It has two keywords, one of which is evergreen.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:40
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Angry Grimace posted:C'thulu  Dagon
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Dec 2, 2015 22:41
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Lottery of Babylon posted:It has two keywords, one of which is evergreen. It also has seven lines of text.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:41
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Dr. Stab posted:It also has seven lines of text. So did Innistrad's werewolves, and every Bestow creature.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:45
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Insane local magic drama: the local high level judge got To-catch-a-predator'd last night and relinquished his drat self to police custody today. What this means for future GPT's is unclear! I was going to make a second insensitive joke about all PPTQ's being cancelled because it doesn't stand for Pre-Teen qualifiers, but I'm not going to.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:46
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Lottery of Babylon posted:So did Innistrad's werewolves, and every Bestow creature. Not at common.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:47
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Some Numbers posted:Not at common. Yes?
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Dec 2, 2015 22:49
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Lottery of Babylon posted:So did Innistrad's werewolves, and every Bestow creature. Yes they did. Those cards were also complicated. The difference is that TSP was full of mechanics like that, while those sets really just had the one. That's really what NWO is all about. Players want cool new things, but there's a limit when learning new things stops being fun and starts being taxing. e: also the asfan of werewolves was super low due to exactly one of the cards in the pack being a flip card. Dr. Stab fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 22:50
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Also according to people WotC actually asked the thing that suspend was actually doing didn't parse well when reading, while Bestow and Transform were very intuitive to people. It's why there's no Bestow creatures that give anything different from their own vanilla stats + abilities, so people could interpret as "I mash these two guys together". Also WotC was extremely hesitant about Transform at first as it was being designed until it was decided new players understood the idea of "person turns into a monster" well enough that it wasn't an issue.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:53
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The common Werewolves from Innistrad had three lines of text for the transform ability and another line for the couple that had evergreen abilities. I'm willing to believe there were common Werewolves with seven lines of text, but I'm not seeing any.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:55
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Some Numbers posted:Not at common. Werewolves and Bestow showed up at common.   The werewolf ability is wordy enough that it takes up seven lines of text on its own.  Eight lines of text for a common bestow creature with an evergreen keyword.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:56
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Some Numbers posted:The common Werewolves from Innistrad had three lines of text for the transform ability and another line for the couple that had evergreen abilities. 3 + 4 = 7
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Dec 2, 2015 22:56
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What do you call someone who doesn't under how suspend works? I really like the phrase marquers << temps >>
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Dec 2, 2015 22:58
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Lottery of Babylon posted:3 + 4 = 7 You're only ever looking at one side at a time and the two sides are, fundamentally, the same ability. That's pretty different from seven lines of reminder text for a keyword. I'll grant you that Bestow is pretty wordy.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:01
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Ultima66 posted:Also according to people WotC actually asked the thing that suspend was actually doing didn't parse well when reading, while Bestow and Transform were very intuitive to people. It's why there's no Bestow creatures that give anything different from their own vanilla stats + abilities, so people could interpret as "I mash these two guys together". Also WotC was extremely hesitant about Transform at first as it was being designed until it was decided new players understood the idea of "person turns into a monster" well enough that it wasn't an issue. I knew a big enough number of people who were really upset that bestow "broke the rules of the game" in regards to the bestow aura becoming a creature if the bestow target was killed in response to casting the aura. I will never understand their anger, most game mechanics bend the game rules.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:05
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Chamale posted:It was the best set ever to the kind of person who posts about Magic on the internet during their spare time. To someone who plays Magic casually, it didn't go over well. In what way is a casual player -necessarily- someone who doesn't like reading cards? Zoness fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 23:06
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If you can't understand why bestow and transform are easier for casual players to understand than suspend, maybe you are the dumb one.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:07
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The best thing about Grizzled Outcasts is that it has more racial diversity on one card art than on the entire rest of Innistrad (Snapcaster is the only other card I can think of with a nonwhite-looking human).Ultima66 posted:Also WotC was extremely hesitant about Transform at first as it was being designed until it was decided new players understood the idea of "person turns into a monster" well enough that it wasn't an issue. I would think that players could also understand "I cast a spell INTO THE FUTURE" well enough but evidently not. Ironically it might have been more understandable if they could have just used a Legends-esque wording like "You may cast ~ for its suspend cost, but it takes four extra turns to resolve. Use counters." but due to the modern need for rules clarity, they have to specify what acts you take, when you remove the counters, etc. JerryLee fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 23:10
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Zoness posted:In what way is a casual player -necessarily- someone who doesn't like reading cards? Reading cards is cool and fun, but if you have to stop to parse every single card in the pack, it becomes not fun. It's about balance.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:16
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Lottery of Babylon posted:It has two keywords, one of which is evergreen. Write the shortest reminder text for suspend that you can.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:18
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Dr. Stab posted:Reading cards is cool and fun, but if you have to stop to parse every single card in the pack, it becomes not fun. It's about balance. Thing is, you ought to only have to fully parse Suspend once. That's the upside of a keyword, in theory.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:22
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Referring to Ob Nixilis as Bobby Nixon is a lot funnier than it has any right to be
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Dec 2, 2015 23:25
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JerryLee posted:Thing is, you ought to only have to fully parse Suspend once. That's the upside of a keyword, in theory. Yeah, that's fine. There's nothing inherently wrong with suspend. It could be a little bit simpler, but that's not the main issue. The real issue was to do with TSP as a whole, a problem to which mechanics like suspend contributed.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:32
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JerryLee posted:Thing is, you ought to only have to fully parse Suspend once. That's the upside of a keyword, in theory. You only have to fully parse Suspend once, but there was a shitload else going on in TSP block as well. Take a look at the gatherer text for Riftmarked Knight, and that's an uncommon.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:40
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Dec 2, 2015 23:53
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Strictly better than Squire, which is on the timeshifted sheet. Seems good!
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Dec 2, 2015 23:53
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Yeah it's not painting a clear picture to say "you only have to parse X once" when, for example, I boosted up a character to max level in WoW and trying to learn what skills to use when took a decent amount of time and made me not want to play the character. Each individual button was pretty simple, but putting it all together is fairly overwhelming. And sometimes individual pieces of that are things a designer has to look at and ask "can we simplify this? Do we really need this?" Like, if you are invested enough into Magic to keep up with cards as they are spoiled, taking in mechanics a few at a time during spoiler season really helps your brain process it, as once you've internalized something your brain can shortcut it. Being told to take in a bunch of things at once can be really overwhelming, especially if you're new and only tentatively exploring a game, and it's a designer's job to help ease that process. E: Also with Suspend whether or not the creature gets haste when it comes into play is pretty weird and not immediately obvious. That's definitely a sore spot of the mechanic.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:55
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Zoness posted:Strictly better than Squire, which is on the timeshifted sheet. Dies to Shatter.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:55
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instantrunoffvote posted:Dies to Shatter. Don't you mean fury charm
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Dec 2, 2015 23:57
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Invested/long term players also had the comprehension upside of being able to go "oh, this is that X card from ten years ago I used to play with" or "oh, this is a colourshift of that card from ten years ago" or "oh, this is that mechanic from ten years ago" or any one of a dozen other variations on that theme. There was absolutely complexity overload in the mechanics, and in the number of mechanics, and in the combinations of mechanics, but older players could devote more comprehension space to all that because their previous experience gave them a cheat sheet on a massive proportion of the block. Coming at it raw made everything several orders of magnitude harder. It's a factor I think it's very easy to underestimate, and very critical to the huge divide in the reception of Time Spiral.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:57
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If you want to talk about the complexity of poo poo in Time Spiral block why don't you actually post complex cards. Or how about a Common with a non-evergreen combat-affecting ability that doesn't have Reminder text. 
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Dec 3, 2015 00:02
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Are we being nerds about lines of texts now?
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Dec 3, 2015 00:03
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Dr. Stab posted:Reading cards is cool and fun, but if you have to stop to parse every single card in the pack, it becomes not fun. It's about balance. This is the problem that entrenched players underestimate by far the most in my experience - you would not believe how much players learning the game hate having to read all the loving cards every single time to figure out what they do.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:03
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Cernunnos posted:If you want to talk about the complexity of poo poo in Time Spiral block why don't you actually post complex cards. Ichor Slick isn't actually that complex, either? Aside from the oddity of Madness exiling, Cycling and Madness interact exactly how you'd expect them to, and are actually a really cool combination of keywords. Knight of Sursi is some bullshit, though.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:09
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Angry Grimace posted:This is the problem that entrenched players underestimate by far the most in my experience - you would not believe how much players learning the game hate having to read all the loving cards every single time to figure out what they do. Future sight took it a step further with multiple abilities that only occurred on 1-3 cards, and commons that were explicitly designed to be weird and unlike anything that had come before. See flowstone embrace: 
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Dec 3, 2015 00:10
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to be fair knight of sursi is pretty simple because what else has flying and flanking anyway? don't even need to bother doing the check case on flanking and you can effectively treat it as bushido 1 except it kills x/1's immediately.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:10
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Zoness posted:to be fair knight of sursi is pretty simple because what else has flying and flanking anyway? Having a common without reminder text is entirely bullshit to begin with, but people did and continue to screw up blocks when flanking is involved. Watching people who weren't familiar with the set try to draft it when it was the MTGO flashback reminded me of this- people were screwing up a lot, and this is when the game is enforcing perfect rules resolution.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:12
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Dr. Stab posted:Yeah, that's fine. There's nothing inherently wrong with suspend. It could be a little bit simpler, but that's not the main issue. The real issue was to do with TSP as a whole, a problem to which mechanics like suspend contributed. Dr. Stab posted:Yeah, that's fine. There's nothing inherently wrong with suspend. It could be a little bit simpler, but that's not the main issue. The real issue was to do with TSP as a whole, a problem to which mechanics like suspend contributed. Fair enough, I got confused and thought we were still focusing on suspend! Re: Ichor Slick. I guess I don't see it as a problem that the card has several different options, any more than something like a Charm is a problem (I guess Charms usually aren't common but let's be real; if charms are a problem, it's a problem that's going to come up for a casual player trying to buy packs during RTR block or KTK). Yeah, you might not see the synergy between Madness and Cycling, but that's not a problem either because the game doesn't try to divide by zero if the new player just plays it exactly like they would if it were Expunge. Someday, they'll notice the synergy (or have it pointed out to them) and they'll feel really cool, but it doesn't have to happen on the day they fan out their first booster pack.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:18
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