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Squalid posted:You come across the same as someone desperate to distinguish between Ephebophilia and Pedophilia. The pedantry over the utility of the term Islamophobia is especially pointless given that as you already said: "Words can change their meaning." What is your opinion about these mosque closures? Do you believe it's good, or do you think it's horrible oppressive Islamophobia from those Kolonialist Kuffar Krusaders the French? The way you're jumping on that "Good" to liken me to a pedophile apologist seems to imply it's the latter.
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Dec 3, 2015 03:13
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PT6A posted:What's wrong with saying that we're at war with radical Islam? That's more or less true, even if "radical Islam" is a troublingly imprecise term. It's also true that the largest threat that radical Islam poses is towards Muslims, and "radical Islam" is a very small segment of total Islamic practice. If Radical Islam is wrong I dont want to be right https://www.skateistan.org/ 
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Dec 3, 2015 04:42
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Pussy Cartel posted:Every time conservatives and New Atheists bring up Islam not being a race, I'm reminded of how anti-Muslim activity always seems to get targeted at people who aren't Muslims at all, but are, coincidentally enough, brown-skinned. Yeah, remember that time Richard Dawkins got arrested for being that Sikh guy into a coma with a tire iron? Sick poo poo, man. The simple reality is that there are those on the right who conflate religious and ethnic identity when criticizing Islam, and those on the left who confuse the two when defending Muslims. INH5 posted:For example, it is easy to look at US Evangelicals pushing schools to teach abstinence-only sex education and conclude that this wouldn't be an issue if Christianity didn't exist. It is considerably harder to say that after you take a look elsewhere and find out that China, one of the least religious countries in the world, has pretty much the exact same problem. On the contrary it's well understood that all sorts of religious traditionalists are opposed to sex ed., and that goes the same for conservative Confucianism sublimated into the policy of a nominally atheistic and communistic state.
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Dec 3, 2015 05:05
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The Insect Court posted:
You're stretching the definition of religious, instead of realizing the truth: Someone can be an atheist and still superstitious. We see this in America with conspiracy theorists or anti-vaxxers.
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Dec 3, 2015 05:16
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So, the guy who has been identified as the shooter in San Bernadino has an Arab name (and as far as I can tell, was a self-identified Muslim). Of course, it appears he's just a nut like every other recent mass shooter in America (it's kind of weird that there's a whole cohort we can compare with in that sense...) but I imagine it will stoke the flames of Islamophobia even so. Honestly, it's just terrible -- first of all, that these crimes are going on, secondly that they are being used to demonize innocent people, and thirdly that the existence of such ignorant and ill-informed criticism will allow the Salafis and like-minded parties to deflect legitimate criticism by claiming it's Islamophobic, while at the very same time using such criticism as a tool to recruit and radicalize other Muslims to their bizarre, violent, warped interpretation of Islam. EDIT: Thank gently caress he wasn't a Syrian refugee or something 
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Dec 3, 2015 06:07
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Cat Mattress posted:What is your opinion about these mosque closures? Do you believe it's good, or do you think it's horrible oppressive Islamophobia from those Kolonialist Kuffar Krusaders the French? The way you're jumping on that "Good" to liken me to a pedophile apologist seems to imply it's the latter. Didn't read the article, haven't heard anything, don't have an opinion. I just quoted your most recent post to comment on the extended conversation.
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Dec 3, 2015 06:10
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I suppose this is the best place as ever to ask what might be a deceptively stupid question: why exactly is it that ISIS is so hated in the first place? Like, the actual reason as far as political motivations go? So much of what I am hearing about how terrible ISIS is supposed to be is coming from people with no actual link to the region and don't have much to go off of aside from Islamophobia. It's just taken for granted that ISIS is so bad and so terrible, but I feel like I must've missed the reason why, especially when ISIS is compared to other groups like Boko Haram or even Assad. I can't shake it... Is the reason that the only real reason the West got publicly involved with ISIS, in the sense that everyone in the media continues to talk about ISIS, is because they released those propaganda videos featuring the executions that one time. The ones gorn ones reportedly posted to people's Facebook walls or something. That creeping feeling that this might be the first action of geopolitical consequence that happened all because of some Internet trolling. ... am I wrong?
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Dec 3, 2015 06:17
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Morroque posted:I suppose this is the best place as ever to ask what might be a deceptively stupid question: why exactly is it that ISIS is so hated in the first place? Like, the actual reason as far as political motivations go? So much of what I am hearing about how terrible ISIS is supposed to be is coming from people with no actual link to the region and don't have much to go off of aside from Islamophobia. It's just taken for granted that ISIS is so bad and so terrible, but I feel like I must've missed the reason why, especially when ISIS is compared to other groups like Boko Haram or even Assad. Fade5 and Brown Moses could cover this better, but ISIS is an expansionist extremist alleged-Caliphate (all of which kind of goes hand in hand) with a very good handle on modern social media and absolutely no compunctions about killing a whole lot of people for being members of groups they don't like, and doing it on camera. If "that one time" is all you're familiar with, then congratulations - you've missed a few hundred of their postings, and a bunch of other coverage of mass graves in eg the retaken Yazidi villages. As far as why the West is involved: partly the above, particularly the part where they had a solid go at exterminating the Yazidis and were making some very worrying advances into Syrian and Iraqi Kurdistan. Partly the expansionist part of the above, where they're gonna be real inconvenient forever if they continue to exist, in ways that your average Salafist theocracy would not necessarily be. Partly that they're the one entity in the Syrian/Iraqi clusterfuck that has no real overt backing from anyone of importance.
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Dec 3, 2015 06:22
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Morroque posted:I suppose this is the best place as ever to ask what might be a deceptively stupid question: why exactly is it that ISIS is so hated in the first place? Like, the actual reason as far as political motivations go? So much of what I am hearing about how terrible ISIS is supposed to be is coming from people with no actual link to the region and don't have much to go off of aside from Islamophobia. It's just taken for granted that ISIS is so bad and so terrible, but I feel like I must've missed the reason why, especially when ISIS is compared to other groups like Boko Haram or even Assad. Setting aside all of the horrible individual actions they've done, they're opposed to all of the major powers in the region (maybe not Saudi but definitely Iran, Russia by way of Assad, and the US by way of Iraq) and they're just crazy enough to not realize that this is suicidal in the long term.
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Dec 3, 2015 06:23
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Fade5 and Brown Moses could cover this better, but ISIS is an expansionist extremist alleged-Caliphate (all of which kind of goes hand in hand) with a very good handle on modern social media and absolutely no compunctions about killing a whole lot of people for being members of groups they don't like, and doing it on camera. In some ways I was hoping I was wrong, but in another way I'm still not entirely convinced. It feels like there is this odd disconnect between what a real group on the ground in Syria and Iraq are doing, versus how figures in the western media are all talking about and promoting involvement in the war. I must have heard seen/heard the word "ISIS" more times than I would've liked in the last few months, but this is the first I've ever heard about the Yazidi. I worry that I'm just imagining this, but of so much regarding what I hear about ISIS, I can't tell what is actual information versus what might just be veiled islamophobia or propaganda serving another purpose entirely.
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Dec 3, 2015 06:43
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Morroque posted:In some ways I was hoping I was wrong, but in another way I'm still not entirely convinced. It feels like there is this odd disconnect between what a real group on the ground in Syria and Iraq are doing, versus how figures in the western media are all talking about and promoting involvement in the war. I must have heard seen/heard the word "ISIS" more times than I would've liked in the last few months, but this is the first I've ever heard about the Yazidi. then you havent been paying any loving attention at all, because the yazidis were being slaughtered or forced into sexual slavery by isis over a year ago, and was one of the main reasons the us started the bombing campaign against isis. isis are real bad dudes, and if you cant realize that then there may be something wrong with you
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Dec 3, 2015 06:47
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You can tell the same crisis actors show up in all the mass execution vids
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Dec 3, 2015 07:06
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Morroque posted:In some ways I was hoping I was wrong, but in another way I'm still not entirely convinced. It feels like there is this odd disconnect between what a real group on the ground in Syria and Iraq are doing, versus how figures in the western media are all talking about and promoting involvement in the war. I must have heard seen/heard the word "ISIS" more times than I would've liked in the last few months, but this is the first I've ever heard about the Yazidi. Well they were actively threatening attacks on western states and are better positioned to make good on threats compared to groups like Boko Haram. Can't discount the fact that America was already involved in Iraq when ISIS took off, and our politicians/public/media probably felt especially responsible for events there. You know among many other reasons.
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Dec 3, 2015 07:26
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Outside of the live mass executions, sexual slavery, and efforts to genocide religious/ethnic minorities of the region they're not that bad. I think you're right, it's probably just a case of Islamophobia.
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Dec 3, 2015 07:48
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Morroque posted:In some ways I was hoping I was wrong, but in another way I'm still not entirely convinced. It feels like there is this odd disconnect between what a real group on the ground in Syria and Iraq are doing, versus how figures in the western media are all talking about and promoting involvement in the war. I must have heard seen/heard the word "ISIS" more times than I would've liked in the last few months, but this is the first I've ever heard about the Yazidi.
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Dec 3, 2015 08:01
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Morroque posted:In some ways I was hoping I was wrong, but in another way I'm still not entirely convinced. It feels like there is this odd disconnect between what a real group on the ground in Syria and Iraq are doing, versus how figures in the western media are all talking about and promoting involvement in the war. I must have heard seen/heard the word "ISIS" more times than I would've liked in the last few months, but this is the first I've ever heard about the Yazidi. They literally release a ton of their own videos, to the point where it's a major interesting aspect of their war and recruitment efforts. They're helping make this one of the most-documented wars in history. Heck, have a nice read of their Dabiq magazine, which they helpfully translate into English. There's a particularly great article in issue 9, where they make an explicit and active defense of the sexual slavery of Yazidi girls/women, because 1) if they're being raped by ISIS soldiers they might convert to Islam, which is a noble effort, and 2) at least it reduces ISIS use of prostitutes. No, I am not kidding on either count. The article starts on page 44, here's a convenient link and some very short quotes. https://azelin.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/the-islamic-state-e2809cdc481biq-magazine-9e280b3.pdf ISIS posted:The right hand’s possession (mulk al-yamīn) are I think the western media you're watching might be garbage. That's fine and not a surprise. That said, they sure as heck had some coverage of the US-assisted airdrop of supplies to besieged Yazidis in the mountains near Sinjar, and probably as a side effect some coverage of the Kurdish on-the-ground siegebreaking efforts - mostly because we were helping with both. http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/world/meast/iraq-rescue-mission/ Edit: Not that the US would have necessarily interfered much more than that to save the Yazidis, mind you, but in that period it became clear that the Kurds were able and willing to fight ISIS and also probably would not have a particularly fun time if their towns fell. Sure, they ain't devil worshippers (as the Yazidis were classified), but ISIS/Daesh ain't real big on people who don't submit to the Caliph, never mind people who actively fight against them. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 08:17
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Tendai posted:Then you're not paying close enough attention. The Yazidis have been brutalized by them ever since they had the chance, and they burned a Jordanian pilot alive almost a year ago. Anyone who tries to conflate being anti-ISIS with being Islamophobic is either an apologist or delusional, and the first is actually a fairly big problem in the online Muslim community right now, both in overt ways and in deflecting "but ____ does bad things too" ways. I think I'm beginning to see that, though I'm still worried about the awkwardness linking the two. So much stuff explicitly and implicitly islamophobic stuff I've seen, an example being the current anti-refugee sentiment, justifies itself using the threat of ISIS or the mere fact that ISIS even exists. It doesn't seem fair, especially when such sentiment would end up disadvantaging people who would want nothing to do terrorism regardless. How do I draw the line? If I hear some report about ISIS, as is the case seeming that's all the news media ever want to do these days, what is going to be actual information about bad things Daesh is doing, versus what is just baseless claims to build up some nebulous bogeyman? I ask this honestly. It seems my own propensity to write off everything as possible propaganda has left me unaware of what might actually be happening in the situation. GreyjoyBastard posted:I think the western media you're watching might be garbage. That's fine and not a surprise. That said, they sure as heck had some coverage of the US-assisted airdrop of supplies to besieged Yazidis in the mountains near Sinjar, and probably as a side effect some coverage of the Kurdish on-the-ground siegebreaking efforts - mostly because we were helping with both. Western media is always garbage and getting even trashier. I'm aware of that, but it's a matter of how much one's own bullshit detector goes off. We've been hoodwinked into destroying another country through pointless war before based off of false information. I'm merely cautious, or possibly paranoid, that it might happen again. Morroque fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 08:42
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I quite support skepticism about appropriate policy initiatives, but I would also recommend reading and googling up on what ISIS says about themselves and on the media they produce - given that it is intended to paint them in as favorable a light as possible, you can then draw your own conclusions about them from their enthusiastic defense of enslavement, rape, and targeting of civilians. Personally, I would argue that they are bad, and personally, I am supportive of cost effective assistance to enemies of theirs who are not as bad. You may disagree with either assessment. Dabiq magazine really is an enlightening, high production value, and conveniently packaged read, by the way. I recommend that anyone who can read it without vomiting do so.
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Dec 3, 2015 08:48
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I feel like Daesh became the biggest boogeyman specifically around the time James Foley was captured and executed. Assad and Boko Haram tend to be domestic in their atrocities, which just doesn't get reported nearly as much. You've probably heard of most cases where ISIS executed Christian or Coptic prisoners, but you tend to have to go looking to find out the extent of their treatment of all the "wrong" kinds of Muslim.
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Dec 3, 2015 09:39
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Was the Khmer rouge really that bad? Sure I heard they killed people for wearing glasses, depopulated cities in an effort to create a brutal agrarian society and started a suicidal war with Vietnam but that's probably all  Western Propaganda!
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Dec 3, 2015 10:09
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khwarezm posted:Was the Khmer rouge really that bad? Sure I heard they killed people for wearing glasses, depopulated cities in an effort to create a brutal agrarian society and started a suicidal war with Vietnam but that's probably all  paleokommunism can't fail, it can only be failed
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Dec 3, 2015 10:21
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Kajeesus posted:I feel like Daesh became the biggest boogeyman specifically around the time James Foley was captured and executed. Assad and Boko Haram tend to be domestic in their atrocities, which just doesn't get reported nearly as much. You've probably heard of most cases where ISIS executed Christian or Coptic prisoners, but you tend to have to go looking to find out the extent of their treatment of all the "wrong" kinds of Muslim. Definitely. There were a lot more calls for action once that happened.
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Dec 3, 2015 11:45
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Theres a culture build around ideas like "snitches get stitches", "bros before hoes" and a anti intelectual agenda (these that pay interest to studies, are targeted for abuse). This is the pop culture in poor areas where part of the population has ben in jail, or will be in jail, so the culture of the area is mixed with the culture of criminals. This culture is machist, a host for criminality and hostile to education. Is not a good culture. My idea is that since this is not a good culture, its possible to say that a culture can be bad. Maybe if this culture (criminal/bro/guetto culture) is bad, other cultures are bad. So we can take a culture, maybe the islamic culture, and ask ourselves... Is this a good culture? is this a bad culture? and is a question that we can make.
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Dec 3, 2015 16:33
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Tei posted:So we can take a culture, maybe the islamic culture, and ask ourselves... Is this a good culture? is this a bad culture? and is a question that we can make. There is no such thing as "islamic culture." We're talking about 1.6 billion people with majorities in 55 different countries, and significant minorities in a bunch of other places. It makes no sense to talk about Saudi Arabia, Morocco, and Indonesia as if they are all part of the same culture.
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Dec 3, 2015 17:01
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Tei posted:My idea is that since this is not a good culture, its possible to say that a culture can be bad. Maybe if this culture (criminal/bro/guetto culture) is bad, other cultures are bad.
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Dec 3, 2015 17:05
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Tei posted:Theres a culture build around ideas like "snitches get stitches", "bros before hoes" and a anti intelectual agenda (these that pay interest to studies, are targeted for abuse). 
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Dec 3, 2015 17:11
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Cat Mattress posted:There are different kinds of screw drives and they need appropriate screwdrivers because you can't use a torx driver in a cruciform head or whatever. For the analogy to hold, you need to demonstrate that similarly, you can't call someone who hates Arabs cannot be called the same thing as someone who hates Chinese people; that it just wouldn't work. This also assumes that none of them hate both Arabs and Chinese people simultaneously (as well as Africans, Latinos, Roms, and Jews). You don't quite "get" analogies, do you? Anyway this is growing tedious and you can refer back to my earlier post if you're still confused but there are very simple and straightforward reasons why the term is used and they have nothing to do with your bizarre conspiracy theory that it's somehow about making "Islam the victim".
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Dec 3, 2015 18:03
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Cat Mattress, why is this fairly pointless argument so important to you?
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Dec 3, 2015 18:11
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Cause he's a goon, just like the rest of us.
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Dec 3, 2015 18:32
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INH5 posted:There is no such thing as "islamic culture." We're talking about 1.6 billion people with majorities in 55 different countries, and significant minorities in a bunch of other places. It makes no sense to talk about Saudi Arabia, Morocco, and Indonesia as if they are all part of the same culture. Well, that would be a problem for step #2. But step #1 was to agree or disagree that a culture can be "Bad". Do we agree a culture can be "bad"?
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Dec 3, 2015 18:46
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Tei posted:Well, that would be a problem for step #2. But step #1 was to agree or disagree that a culture can be "Bad". No, that's step number 2. Step 1 is to define "bad".
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Dec 3, 2015 18:50
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Tei posted:Well, that would be a problem for step #2. But step #1 was to agree or disagree that a culture can be "Bad". if cultures can be bad, whichever culture spawned you is the worst there is no objective basis on which you can define a culture or if it's good or bad, so it's useless except to articulate what you dislike. and i dislike your posting
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Dec 3, 2015 18:50
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Popular Thug Drink posted:there is no objective basis on which you can define a culture or if it's good or bad, so it's useless except to articulate what you dislike. Effectronica posted:No, that's step number 2. Step 1 is to define "bad". Next thing I am going to say, theres some universal ideas we can agree. I think. Protect childrens. Protect womans. Violence against the weak, is disgusting. Hardworking people is like awesome. Fun people is something to like. Can't we even agree on the things above? can we agree on these basics, or other basics that can be written down? Maybe the basic I wrote are not universal, but we can find others that we do agree. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAIFUvQiPQc
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Dec 3, 2015 19:01
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Thank you, Tei, for bringing us the latest analysis from the finest minds at Flyover State High. In other news I heard Kimmy is a total slut and that Hank and Rebecca are going to be Prom King and Queen.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:21
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Popular Thug Drink posted:if cultures can be bad, whichever culture spawned you is the worst While this is hard to argue with at some abstract theoretical level I think most people are comfortable evaluating cultural norms on a couple basic questions like how well these norms support individual autonomy, bodily security, a sense of mental well being, etc. Speaking personally I'm not ready to go all the way down the culturally relativist rabbit hole because the logical endpoint of that perspective seems to be that we can never form any evaluations of anyone ever, since each person is irreducibly their own individual with their own perspective on the world. I think the simpler solution to this debate is to disengage from it altogether because it's a total loving distraction in the context of this thread. Tei and other idiots like him don't have anything to actually say on the topic of islamophobia so they're trying to change the discussion to a topic they are actually comfortable discussing: in this case some really dumb and reductive examples of baby's first cultural anthropology. It's a waste of time, especially in a thread that was supposed to be about rising anti-Muslim sentiment in the US.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:35
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Tendai posted:What is "Islamic culture" exactly? I'm a white, American-born progressive who converted at 15. I'm pretty sure my culture is vastly different from a Salafist Arab man in the Gulf States. We have things in common -- the fundamental belief of our religion, the fact that we pray, etc -- but I imagine our views on human rights and other pretty core cultural values are going to be vastly different, based on what I've seen and the people I've interacted with. I mean, that's the thing, right? In order to break it down to the thing you actually don't want around, you have to subcategorize things into relative levels of minutia. It's hosed up to rally against "Islamic Culture", partly because the vast majority of the world's 1.6+ billion muslims are peaceful and okay, but also partly because what you actually want to rally against is "specifically the babby subculture of violent weirdos and other disenfranchised outsiders who want to join ISIS or whatever". That is to say, actually not Muslims, but instead something that hides under the superficial veneer of Islam in an attempt to legitimize itself. It's like if presidential candidates were advocating to lock up everybody with a STEM degree because the unabomber had a PhD in mathematics. Unfortunately, all modern political discourse happens in the form of punchy soundbytes that need to fit inside a tweet! In the time it takes you to be eloquent, Trump already has his base pumping their fists uncontrollably while he says we should kill the terrorists' families, too 
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Dec 3, 2015 20:41
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Helsing posted:While this is hard to argue with at some abstract theoretical level I think most people are comfortable evaluating cultural norms on a couple basic questions like how well these norms support individual autonomy, bodily security, a sense of mental well being, etc. Speaking personally I'm not ready to go all the way down the culturally relativist rabbit hole because the logical endpoint of that perspective seems to be that we can never form any evaluations of anyone ever, since each person is irreducibly their own individual with their own perspective on the world. my point is more how many of those norms do you have to hit before it's bad or good i come from a perfectly neutral culture, as good as it is bad, morally buoyant people only say a culture is bad when they want to pseudointellectualize their bigotry in abstract and impersonal terms as a way of distancing themselves from the ugliness of their own opinions. it's just cowardice really
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Dec 3, 2015 21:34
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Eh, I can't entirely agree with you on that one. Most traditional religions, whether it's Catholicism, Anglicanism, Calvinism, Orthodox Judaism, Hinduism, Shia or Sunni Islam, etc. have some pretty serious issues with patriarchal attitudes, mistrust of outsiders, and subordination of individual interests to the preservation of the culture or group. I don't have much interest in defending or protecting those attitudes. I wouldn't dismiss any culture outright but I also think that we in the west can sometimes forget just how awful things were in the very recent past (and how awful they continue to be in many places in the west where religion still dominates public life). If you look at Catholicism in Quebec or Ireland, or Mormonism in Utah, or Baptism in many towns in the South, then it's pretty clear that there are some really awful cultural values on display. For that matter, there's lots of problems with Islam. We don't need to shy away from admitting this. The place where I do agree with you is that, in reality, most of the discourse surrounding Muslim culture right now, including what's coming from people in this thread, is absolutely " an attempt to "pseudointellectualize their bigotry in abstract and impersonal terms". However, I think we can point that out without subscribing to full-scale cultural relativism. I'd suggest the real issue with Tei isn't that he's claiming some cultures might be "better" or "worse" than others, it's that he's just making really dumb and sweeping arguments that don't really serve any purpose in this thread except to distract us from the original topic of discussion: the growing political movement to demonize Muslims in the USA. It's a serious topic and it's worth discussing without hearing somebody's High School level opinions on foreign cultures. All this talk about Muslims from supposed atheists is a really great way to ignore the fact that one of the most powerful voting blocs in America are evangelical Christians, who control numerous local governments and who have a significant impact on the politics of the Republican party at the state and national levels. They also mostly ignore the extent to which America's primary middle eastern ally, Israel, is a state that literally elevates one religion and ethnicity over all others by declaring itself as "Jewish" state, and it's biggest client state in the region is Saudi Arabia. That's what's so pathetic about these discussions. The people bashing Muslims in this thread have no sense of perspective or context. They're eager to leap on the Muslim hating bandwagon because it's simultaneously a relatively safe topic and yet, at least on these forums, it has the intoxicating whiff of contrarianism that let's you feel like you're revealing some kind of forbidden truth. Meanwhile the much more pressing issues of our time, like the Republican partys slow drift into outright fascism, get largely ignored or papered over.
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Dec 3, 2015 22:20
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Tei posted:Do we agree a culture can be "bad"? No, because "bad" is in dire need of qualification and is entirely too broad a word for any sort of discussion, save tepid moralization about and hypocritical condemnation of other cultures based on nebulous bellyfeels. Do you mean:
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Dec 3, 2015 22:36
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quote:Fox Contributor: Call The Cops If Someone Named Syed Leaves Your Party
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Dec 4, 2015 00:22
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