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So, I wonder how Moffat was going to force the final regeneration into the Eleventh Doctors run if he had managed to get Eccleston in the 50th special? Where do you find the loophole there, or do you think he just waits?
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Dec 4, 2015 08:26
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remusclaw posted:So, I wonder how Moffat was going to force the final regeneration into the Eleventh Doctors run if he had managed to get Eccleston in the 50th special? Where do you find the loophole there, or do you think he just waits? Probably just rewrite it into the Doctor still lasting 300 years to the point he's not sure he can still regenerate because of how old he's gotten. Barry Foster posted:The 'self' is essentially a very convincing cognitive illusion I recommend Altered Carbon, it's a great sci-fi novel that's built on this very premise.
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Dec 4, 2015 08:50
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Down by Lawrence Miles also has some thoughts on teleportation and the idea of what is you.
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Dec 4, 2015 09:14
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Probably just rewrite it into the Doctor still lasting 300 years to the point he's not sure he can still regenerate because of how old he's gotten. Not that continuity matters for much in this show, but that read's way too close to "wearing a little thin" to me for it to affect regeneration.
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Dec 4, 2015 09:19
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Why did the doctor spend two billion years not telling his captors who the hybrid is, only tell his captors who the hybrid is within two minutes of escaping?
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Dec 4, 2015 10:53
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Why did the doctor spend two billion years not telling his captors who the hybrid is, only tell his captors who the hybrid is within two minutes of escaping? Yeah, this didn't make any sense to me either. So I've decided to put it down to sheer bloody-mindedness on his part.
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Dec 4, 2015 10:54
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Cause he didn't tell them… he said it after he was out of the maze right?
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Dec 4, 2015 11:08
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jojoinnit posted:Cause he didn't tell them… he said it after he was out of the maze right? But he specifically noted that they were still listening when he said it.
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Dec 4, 2015 11:10
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Because before he was in a position of weakness/captivity, and now he's out and presumably looking to terrify his former captors with the (probably false) information.
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Dec 4, 2015 11:15
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Jerusalem posted:Because before he was in a position of weakness/captivity, and now he's out and presumably looking to terrify his former captors with the (probably false) information. Yeah, it's a case of "Fiendish Doctor Wu, you done hosed up now!"
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Dec 4, 2015 11:48
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I can't wait to see their faces when they go to hear the confession and instead it's just endless waterlogged skulls
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Dec 4, 2015 11:56
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CommonShore posted:
Vincent and the Doctor
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Dec 4, 2015 12:29
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Jerusalem posted:Because before he was in a position of weakness/captivity, and now he's out and presumably looking to terrify his former captors with the (probably false) information. Actually yeah, that's a good point. The Veil seems to have had some mystical way of knowing if he's lying, so the confession at the end isn't governed by it, so he's probably prevaricating in some fashion. Most likely the fashion alluded to upthread where Me is the hybrid, rather than the Doctor.
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Dec 4, 2015 14:06
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thespaceinvader posted:Actually yeah, that's a good point. The Veil seems to have had some mystical way of knowing if he's lying, so the confession at the end isn't governed by it, so he's probably prevaricating in some fashion. Also the Doctor now knows exactly who's behind the whole thing, so not telling doesn't have the same importance. Now that he knows who he's up against, he might actually want them to know just to keep them off-guard. Along with the potential fake-out of "it's Me! the immortal girl on Earth you had working for you, suckers.
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Dec 4, 2015 14:20
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^^^ e: yes that. Jerusalem posted:Because before he was in a position of weakness/captivity, and now he's out and presumably looking to terrify his former captors with the (probably false) information. I don't think he knew who his captors were while he was in the maze, right? It's not until he gets out that he finds that he's been in the confession dial and that (presumably) the Time Lords have done this to him, and now he's like 'I don't even care if you know now because I'm coming to wreck your poo poo'.
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Dec 4, 2015 14:25
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It won't happen, but it would be cool if he gets to town and the TimeLords are all "What? No, no one cares about that old prophecy, we aren't a bunch of superstitious ninnies. We wanted to know about {thing}!"
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Dec 4, 2015 15:31
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remusclaw posted:So, I wonder how Moffat was going to force the final regeneration into the Eleventh Doctors run if he had managed to get Eccleston in the 50th special? Where do you find the loophole there, or do you think he just waits? Ok you lost me at some point. How would having Eccleston in th 50th have affected Smith's regeneration? War would still have regenerated to 9 at the end. The numbers still work out all the same.
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Dec 4, 2015 15:56
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M_Gargantua posted:Ok you lost me at some point. How would having Eccleston in th 50th have affected Smith's regeneration? War would still have regenerated to 9 at the end. The numbers still work out all the same. The theory is, if Eccleston had said yes, there would have been no need for War Doctor.
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Dec 4, 2015 16:00
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thrawn527 posted:The theory is, if Eccleston had said yes, there would have been no need for War Doctor. Oh, he would have been the one with the cosmic kablooie widget in the broken house in the desert instead of John Hurt?
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Dec 4, 2015 16:02
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Well it would have been a shame not to get John Hurt. So not including him doesn't make sense to me. Guess it worked out for the best in my opinion.
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Dec 4, 2015 16:02
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Presumably the idea is that 9 would have taken the place of War, being the one who was going to push the big red button. I don't like that idea much myself; given 9's comments about his appearance while looking in the mirror in his first episode it seemed like he was freshly regenerated, though I read somewhere RTD didn't mean to give that impression (what impression DID he mean to give?) Edit: 
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Dec 4, 2015 16:03
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CommonShore posted:Oh, he would have been the one with the cosmic kablooie widget in the broken house in the desert instead of John Hurt? No idea what would have been different, but Moffat said he had to rewrite part of the script once he realized he couldn't use 9.
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Dec 4, 2015 16:04
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M_Gargantua posted:Well it would have been a shame not to get John Hurt. So not including him doesn't make sense to me. Guess it worked out for the best in my opinion. Slotting in the War Doctor fundamentally changes Eleven's ending, because it puts him on his final regeneration. If it was just Nine pushing the Big Red Button, then he's still got an extra regeneration waiting to go and there's no real drama to the climax as it existed.
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Dec 4, 2015 16:07
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2house2fly posted:Presumably the idea is that 9 would have taken the place of War, being the one who was going to push the big red button. I don't like that idea much myself; given 9's comments about his appearance while looking in the mirror in his first episode it seemed like he was freshly regenerated, though I read somewhere RTD didn't mean to give that impression (what impression DID he mean to give?) It should've been Eight. McGann deserved more screen time than he got, it would have been more affecting to see poor old battered Eight push the big red button than a total stranger of an incarnation, and despite Hurt being good in the role, the War Doctor still feels awkwardly shoe-horned in.
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Dec 4, 2015 16:18
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Barry Foster posted:It should've been Eight. McGann deserved more screen time than he got, it would have been more affecting to see poor old battered Eight push the big red button than a total stranger of an incarnation, and despite Hurt being good in the role, the War Doctor still feels awkwardly shoe-horned in. But then we wouldn't have got Night of the Doctor, which in turn means we wouldn't have got: DOCTOR: Four minutes? That's ages. What if I get bored, or need a television, couple of books? Anyone for chess? Bring me knitting.
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Dec 4, 2015 16:43
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I dreamt last night that the standby for if John Hurt passed on the role was Ian McKellan, and then I got sad that that never happened. 
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Dec 4, 2015 16:58
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remusclaw posted:So, I wonder how Moffat was going to force the final regeneration into the Eleventh Doctors run if he had managed to get Eccleston in the 50th special? Where do you find the loophole there, or do you think he just waits? I kind of would have hoped that he wouldn't have forced the "final regeneration" plot point into the Eleventh Doctor's arc at all, to be honest. It would have been relatively easy to alter The Time Of The Doctor to support this (maybe regeneration is impossible on Trenzalore, maybe the Daleks bring a regeneration-suppressing weapon to the fight, there's a whole bunch of ways to do it) without subtracting the important stuff about the Doctor apparently dying for real, for ever, and Gallifrey saving him. The reason I would have liked this better is because the decision to have Eleven be the Doctor's final regeneration was obviously a very late one, and constitutes a massive retroactive alteration to the Eleventh Doctor's character. I mean, the way it is currently, he knew all along that he was the Last Doctor, but this foreknowledge doesn't really come through anywhere in Smith's portrayal when realistically it should have been a prominent shadow hanging over him for his entire run. It just comes out of nowhere and it doesn't feel earned. This aside from the fact that it happened in the same year as the equally epic 50th anniversary special, which makes it not feel necessary either. I get that Moffat had probably been anticipating this story for decades and maybe didn't think there was much chance of him sticking around for another entire Doctor's run to see it through the way he wanted, but a little restraint would have been nice. E: and tangentially: having Eleven aged all the way to a very old man by the time he carks it, thereby providing a perfect loophole for "extracting" him from Trenzalore for future multi-Doctor stories no matter how much the actor ages? That, Steve, is genius. qntm fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Dec 4, 2015 |
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Dec 4, 2015 19:10
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Why assume that Eleven knew all along? He clearly thinks that he might be able to regenerate in Let's Kill Hitler. I figure that even after TenToo and Ten's explosive regeneration, the Doctor probably enough juice to cheat out one more regeneration, just BARELY, but he didn't do the math and spent that energy on healing River, etc., and went below the "regeneration threshold" and didn't realize until some time on Trenzalore.
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Dec 4, 2015 19:30
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DoctorWhat posted:Why assume that Eleven knew all along? quote:He clearly thinks that he might be able to regenerate in Let's Kill Hitler. or it's just a continuity error because Moffat hadn't decided that either the War Doctor existed or Tennant's fake out had actually counted yet.
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Dec 4, 2015 19:35
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Any writer not looking to force that story in probably would not have called back to the Tennant almost regeneration in the first place.
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Dec 4, 2015 19:42
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CobiWann posted:Yeah, it's a case of "Fiendish Doctor Wu, you done hosed up now!" I really want that to become a common reference to something occuring in television, ala jumping the shark.
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Dec 4, 2015 20:18
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Was there any canon where the Doctor has a limited number of regenerations before that episode? I've always been a little irritated by the idea that he'd suddenly introduce an artificial limit like that to the show but maybe it's been a thing for a lot longer than I knew.
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Dec 4, 2015 20:20
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It's been a thing for a long time but there's been loads of questions about the actual implementation. Is it 12 bodies or 13? Is it 11 acts of Regeneration or 12? Is it biological or legislated? Etc.
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Dec 4, 2015 20:24
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Yes, they referenced it when the Master turned into a shambling corpse creature in the Deadly Assassin, so it dates back at the very least to the Fourth Doctors run.
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Dec 4, 2015 20:25
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Also, it has always been a fairly off-hand thing, so it's weird that the fandom and the reboot chose to cling so tenuously to this particular off-hand piece of trivia.
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Dec 4, 2015 20:27
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Pizdec posted:Also, it has always been a fairly off-hand thing, so it's weird that the fandom and the reboot chose to cling so tenuously to this particular off-hand piece of trivia. You say these things are "off-hand trivia" now, but just wait until we all successfully predict the fluid link running out of mercury at an inopportune moment!
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Dec 4, 2015 20:31
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I don't thinks is that weird, its one of the few concrete things we learned about the Doctor and the Time Lords. It makes him mortal and therefore it makes each incremental regeneration more dramatic as it ticks down to his last chance. Shame it had to be rushed, had a lot of dramatic potential if given the proper build. I mean, you know he was going to cheat it somehow, but there is drama in the build, and we missed out on that because someone wanted to rush it.
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Dec 4, 2015 20:32
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It was introduced and resolved by Robert Holmes, who thought that there should be multiple Doctors we haven't seen.
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Dec 4, 2015 20:34
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Pizdec posted:Also, it has always been a fairly off-hand thing, so it's weird that the fandom and the reboot chose to cling so tenuously to this particular off-hand piece of trivia. The limit also motivated Borusa's antics in The Five Doctors but you can hardly blame him, given how often the character was regenerating. Gallifrey must be more dangerous than it looks.
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Dec 4, 2015 20:35
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It was an offhand thing in the classic series, which barely got halfway past the limit.
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Dec 4, 2015 20:37
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