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Mechayahiko posted:https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/12/3/special-modifications/ Fiiiiinally, I've been wanting some more options for my Technician.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:15
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Kai Tave posted:Of all the things George Lucas made a hash out of in the prequels I think I'm most irritated by what he did with the Jedi, going from the original trilogy where we know everything we really need to...that they were an order of cool dudes with laser swords who were guardians of peace and justice until the Empire hosed everything up...to something out of somebody's "extremely clever" fanfic where they're taking kids away from their parents and forbidding people from falling in love because SEE THEY'RE NOT REALLY THAT GOOD AFTER ALL makes u think I think making them the epitome of 'communism is the utopian version of government, but will never work due to humanity possessing too much ambition to ever allow for it to run without someone attempting to take control and ruin it for everyone' people is great. Most EU people never did actually look at how the Dark Side is the best. It's mostly just fans who try and claim that, nothing really supports it. And then we have the people who actually hate Star Wars who want it without Jedi or Sith or the Force at all.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:29
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I would've bought the Sith being individualists obsessed with self-mastery if they didn't always seem to end up being sadistic lunatics obsessed with enslaving the galaxy and/or engaging in omnicide and random acts of torture. It always felt like more than a bit of a leap from the Sith Code to, well, the average Sith in fiction. Edit: I mean, the Sith Code alone doesn't sound too bad, but then you look at the characters that actually follow it and, well...yeah.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:33
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The sith code is literally libertarian beliefs. That is literally obsessed with constant growth of power. It doesn't sound nice.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:37
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homullus posted:How would you go about writing the downfall of an entire order of cool dudes with laser swords (which parry/reflect blaster fire) if they are as flawlessly good as you are imagining they were supposed to be? Like, what in the galaxy is going to stop that? Even if the story you want to tell is "the Jedi fell because they were growing too distant and detached while the galaxy went to pieces around them" I'm confident there are probably better, less doofy ways of going about it than "Anakin Skywalker did it with a princess." I think it's kind of weird that you're taking the leap that doing something like this means "but then the Jedi would be perfect and invincible and what then???" I mean I dunno, I probably wouldn't portray them as invincible superwarriors able to best entire armies either despite actually enjoying the Genndy Tartakovsky shorts, there isn't really a whole lot going on in the original trilogy that suggests this is the case.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:48
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Annakin fell because thew only person he felt comfortable being himself around and actually confiding in happened to be the Dark Lord of the Sith. The Jedi code does not make for a particularly healthy mental environment, every time he goes to a master for advice on any issue he basically get told off and sent to go meditate in a corner.
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Dec 3, 2015 22:16
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homullus posted:How would you go about writing the downfall of an entire order of cool dudes with laser swords (which parry/reflect blaster fire) if they are as flawlessly good as you are imagining they were supposed to be? Like, what in the galaxy is going to stop that? Members of good order watch the government fall apart in a war, succumb to temptation to use their powers to override the government's dumb decisions, become afraid that if anyone else is put in charge they will screw up, become tyrants For The Greater Good.
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Dec 3, 2015 22:25
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Kai Tave posted:Even if the story you want to tell is "the Jedi fell because they were growing too distant and detached while the galaxy went to pieces around them" I'm confident there are probably better, less doofy ways of going about it than "Anakin Skywalker did it with a princess." Even if Luke is an above-average laser swordwizard due to his lineage, he sails in and wipes out a gangster and his crew on his own. Jedi are portrayed as very powerful in the original trilogy, and you don't need them to take on literal armies to make them nigh unstoppable as a galactic force of independent vigilantes or whatever. The OT makes the case that being strong in the Force is enough to overcome long odds, even with no training at all (cf. Leia). Most Jedi would have more training than Luke did. It's totally ok if you don't like the prequels, but I think you're imagining the inconcinnity. echopapa posted:Members of good order watch the government fall apart in a war, succumb to temptation to use their powers to override the government's dumb decisions, become afraid that if anyone else is put in charge they will screw up, become tyrants For The Greater Good. If the Jedi become the tyrants in power, why aren't the Jedi around for Episode IV? Like, yes, that's a great storyline about power corrupting, but we still need to get to the point where there are literally two Jedi and one neoPadawan in the galaxy. They need to be wiped out to make Obi-Wan not a liar.
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Dec 3, 2015 22:42
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There is no indication in the Original trilogy that Vader and Palpatine aren't just corrupted Jedi. They are never called Sith, the word never gets spoken. We have a lot of preconceptions about Star Wars from the EU but the original movies left everything that came before it pretty open to interpretation, especially considering our main source for history in them comes from a self admitted certain point of view.
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Dec 3, 2015 22:49
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remusclaw posted:There is no indication in the Original trilogy that Vader and Palpatine aren't just corrupted Jedi. They are never called Sith, the word never gets spoken. We have a lot of preconceptions about Star Wars from the EU but the original movies left everything that came before it pretty open to interpretation, especially considering our main source for history in them comes from a self admitted certain point of view. It's true, but still: where are all the others? There are four space magicians in the original trilogy (two bad, two good) and one apprentice space magician. We'd expect more than two bad ones, or at least references to them, if there were a bunch running around making the galaxy suck, but characters on both sides are dismissive of the Force even in the first movie. Until Return of the Jedi, we don't even know that Vader's not the ONLY bad space magician. "Space magicians had flaws that led to their being unable to predict or prevent their death" is much easier, continuity-wise between trilogies, than "space magicians turned bad and then more or less vanished so completely that people don't talk about them at all." We're talking about space wizards who can see the future, which is (according to Yoda) in motion and changeable. "Oh, wow, I foresaw a big army coming this way! Let's go the other way!" How do you get Jedi who foresee their own death by blaster fire to do what they're doing anyway? Putting them on the same side as the trustworthy guys who will eventually pull the trigger is a good start. And since we know from the OT that Jedi can sense psychic pain or whatever, it probably needs to happen all at once, otherwise they could warn each other. homullus fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 23:13
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Most revolutions have purges in the aftermath of success. What you get with this is something of a Jedi civil war that starts over ideology and that ends with the Emperor in power with his Right hand man and personal executioner Vader cleaning up the trouble makers in the aftermath of the coup, which, as was generally thought to be the case before the prequels came out, a good deal more than just 18 years prior to the start of New Hope. Just fantasy booking now, but history was wide open before the prequels came out.
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Dec 3, 2015 23:19
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Also it was heavily implied in the OT that the Jedi were legendary figures that had all but faded from memory which to me says that weren't hundreds of them leading armies and fighting in a massive galactic war a couple decades prior to the OT.
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Dec 3, 2015 23:22
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Rannos22 posted:Also it was heavily implied in the OT that the Jedi were legendary figures that had all but faded from memory which to me says that weren't hundreds of them leading armies and fighting in a massive galactic war a couple decades prior to the OT. I always interpreted this as the Jedi's powers were what was legendary and faded from memory. The average person in the galaxy would probably never even be on the same continent as a Jedi, let alone in a position to see one use the Force to do something superhuman. Yes, the Jedi were generals in the war, and were spoken of as "guardians of peace and justice"...but none of that expressly says "these guys can pick up ships with their minds, leap tall buildings in a single bound, see the future, and shoot lightning from their fingertips". Even people who work in the same (giant, moon sized) office building as Darth Vader don't believe that he has anything more than religious convictions until such time as he chokes one of them. Han speaks of "hoaky tricks and ancient religions", he obviously knows what a Jedi supposedly is, but doesn't believe in the supernatural aspect of it.
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Dec 3, 2015 23:38
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Mainly my point is that the prequel portrayal of the Jedi made the fall we all knew was coming hamfistedly perfunctory instead of any sort of compelling tragedy.
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Dec 3, 2015 23:45
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That is a perfectly valid reading of the situation post prequels, but not the only possible one or even the best one by a long shot before them. We have what we have now, and as a history, it isn't really even all that bad, where it's bad is in how it was told. Without the prequels or the EU, we don't have a Jedi Code, we dont know how they acted at all, all we have is Dark side bad. There is no mention of a light side, no indicator Jedi were anything but protectors of the Galaxy for a thousand generations. For all we knew, what they protected the galaxy from could have been mostly evil Jedi. Star Wars was all potential once upon a time, and as with anything, the more you pin down what it is, the more you lessen it's potential. Not a good or a bad thing really, but imagination plays better with loose lego's than with a model kit. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Dec 4, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 23:45
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Rannos22 posted:Also it was heavily implied in the OT that the Jedi were legendary figures that had all but faded from memory which to me says that weren't hundreds of them leading armies and fighting in a massive galactic war a couple decades prior to the OT. The easiest way to make this work is to make the Jedi a secret society.
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Dec 4, 2015 08:51
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echopapa posted:The easiest way to make this work is to make the Jedi a secret society. I've yet to see a prequels reimagining that isn't completely poo poo.
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Dec 4, 2015 09:54
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cptn_dr posted:I've yet to see a prequels reimagining that isn't completely poo poo. The Jedi are a secret society of spies. This is why their signature weapon is a sword that literally glows in the dark.
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Dec 4, 2015 16:30
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How well does Age of Rebellion work? Like, I assume it's more combat due to its nature, but that could be a little dangerous with the system. cptn_dr posted:I've yet to see a prequels reimagining that isn't completely poo poo. That's because, as much as Star Wars fans like to say they know better than Lucas (thought sometimes they do), they aren't, usually, professional writers and don't really get storymaking. Also, I always felt Star Wars worked best when you accepted it as pulp science fantasy adventures and didn't think about it too hard or too deeply. I always got the vibe from the films, at least the OT, that you were supposed to take things at face value and not over analyze. Just felt the films were putting in elements to facilitate a pulpy experience like Flash Gordon, not make a realistic and deep universe. That came later due to franchises and the expanded universe. What I mean is that, while I love to geek out about Star Wars from time-to-time, getting too serious on things like Sith Philosophy vs Jedi Philosophy and stuff is just taking things too seriously. Like, for example, the Jedi are guardians and embody Buddhist ideals until they became hypocritical and the Sith are just villains with a capital "V" who exist to be obstacles for the heroes to overcome and grow.
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Dec 4, 2015 17:47
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homullus posted:How would you go about writing the downfall of an entire order of cool dudes with laser swords (which parry/reflect blaster fire) if they are as flawlessly good as you are imagining they were supposed to be? Like, what in the galaxy is going to stop that? I always had the impression, as a kid, that the Jedi were a relatively small elite guard. Obi-Wan never explained how they lost, so I figured they were probably outnumbered. Neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda did anything in the original movie that made me think he would deflect dozens of blaster bolts coming at him at once. remusclaw posted:There is no indication in the Original trilogy that Vader and Palpatine aren't just corrupted Jedi. They are never called Sith, the word never gets spoken. We have a lot of preconceptions about Star Wars from the EU but the original movies left everything that came before it pretty open to interpretation, especially considering our main source for history in them comes from a self admitted certain point of view.
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Dec 5, 2015 01:30
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If you read "The Making of Star Wars" you get the impression that very little of what ended up in the prequels didn't have some genesis in Lucas' original scripts and drafts, though I have heard that much of that book's supposed historical content is questionable.
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Dec 5, 2015 01:56
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Got a weird hankering to run a PbP game here about an Imperial crew on a Vigil Corvette doing a long-term anti-Piracy patrol on the Outer Rim, dealing with local gangsters, planets that are Imperial on paper only, and fishing for any leads on this burgeoning "rebellion" that High Command seems strangely worried about. Anyone interested? Can't say I'd be a great GM, but hey, could be fun.
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Dec 5, 2015 10:10
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I'd be down to throw a bounty hunter app in and see how it goes.
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Dec 5, 2015 10:49
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This game really doesn't work well in PbP, as Fuzz can attest. If you really want to run something, I'd recommend over Roll20 or Skype, and I'd be interested in taking part.
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Dec 5, 2015 14:07
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nothing to seehere posted:If you really want to run something, I'd recommend over Roll20 or Skype, and I'd be interested in taking part. Same, but I think most of the goon SW RPG community is in the states. Sucks being in Europe sometimes.
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Dec 5, 2015 14:17
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I'm in the eu and I'm interested in giving roll20 a go, Evenings GMT would be best for me if it's an option.
ShineDog fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 15:46
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nothing to seehere posted:This game really doesn't work well in PbP, as Fuzz can attest. If you really want to run something, I'd recommend over Roll20 or Skype, and I'd be interested in taking part. Yeah, the heavy narrative style would normally work well, but in reality most PbP players don't want to jump in there and write long posts describing things, plus without other players' input while you post, there's a big chance of stepping on toes. In the end, the GM ends up shouldering all of the work and it just becomes a shitload of extra work to really make the game be more immersive and keep people interested, on top of the basic player attrition that you get with a PbP by default. 
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Dec 5, 2015 15:58
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Fuzz posted:Yeah, the heavy narrative style would normally work well, but in reality most PbP players don't want to jump in there and write long posts describing things, plus without other players' input while you post, there's a big chance of stepping on toes. In the end, the GM ends up shouldering all of the work and it just becomes a shitload of extra work to really make the game be more immersive and keep people interested, on top of the basic player attrition that you get with a PbP by default. Hmm, gotcha. I could run an R20 game, though it would be a late evening PST game. Any interest in like an 8pm Sunday game every couple weeks or so?
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Dec 6, 2015 07:14
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susan posted:Hmm, gotcha. I could run an R20 game, though it would be a late evening PST game. Any interest in like an 8pm Sunday game every couple weeks or so? The timezone is important.
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Dec 6, 2015 07:18
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Fuzz posted:The timezone is important. PST. ...PDT? Pacific. susan fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 07:19
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susan posted:PST. ...PDT? Pacific. Ah drat. Too late for me.
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Dec 6, 2015 07:33
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Yea, I'm on GMT so too late for me aswell.
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Dec 6, 2015 09:50
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Fuzz posted:Yeah, the heavy narrative style would normally work well, but in reality most PbP players don't want to jump in there and write long posts describing things, plus without other players' input while you post, there's a big chance of stepping on toes. In the end, the GM ends up shouldering all of the work and it just becomes a shitload of extra work to really make the game be more immersive and keep people interested, on top of the basic player attrition that you get with a PbP by default. I could see it working if 1.) it was made clear from the get-go that players apply with the knowledge that they're expected to commit heavily to the RP and 2.) if the party size was kept smallish (3-4 PCs tops). It is a huge time commitment though... I knew it going in, but even I wasn't really prepared for the amount of time commitment that running a PbP narrative-heavy game would entail when I tried to do my Yuuzhan Vong reboot game (in hindsight, a really ambitious project for someone who'd never GM'd before). It's still an idea that I really, really want to revisit, but being able to commit those chunks of time on such a frequent basis isn't really realistic. Edit: however, a live game seems like it would be much better, though would naturally be lighter on the RP than a PbP could be. @nothingtoseehere/ShineDog/any other Euros, would there be any interest in trying to snowball up an EU-friendly Roll20/Skype game? Drone fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 21:39
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Drone posted:I could see it working if 1.) it was made clear from the get-go that players apply with the knowledge that they're expected to commit heavily to the RP and 2.) if the party size was kept smallish (3-4 PCs tops). It is a huge time commitment though... I knew it going in, but even I wasn't really prepared for the amount of time commitment that running a PbP narrative-heavy game would entail when I tried to do my Yuuzhan Vong reboot game (in hindsight, a really ambitious project for someone who'd never GM'd before). Just for the record; I would love for you to revisit that campaign idea at some point. I loved it.
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Dec 6, 2015 21:42
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jivjov posted:Just for the record; I would love for you to revisit that campaign idea at some point. I loved it. Stop tempting me maaan. I've been on a huge(r than normal) Star Wars kick lately and I've mentally reworked a lot of what I had planned/how I would have set up the start of it again to streamline it a bit more. It also helps that I now actually own all of the core rulebooks so I don't have to ask people how stuff like morality works Drone fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 21:44
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I think a big thing with PbP is you need to have peoples Skype/An Irc/something else to make a group with. And you have to force people to really, actually, interact. No matter what game it is, if people aren't talking and planning together it won't work.
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Dec 6, 2015 21:48
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Mechayahiko posted:https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/12/3/special-modifications/ Noice. Just gettin' back from vacation, gonna add this to the OP. The Launch Bay and new Star Tours at Disney World fuckin' own, btw 
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Dec 6, 2015 22:16
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Drone posted:Stop tempting me maaan. I've been on a huge(r than normal) Star Wars kick lately and I've mentally reworked a lot of what I had planned/how I would have set up the start of it again to streamline it a bit more. I'm just gonna keep encouraging you. I'll be first in line with an application!
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Dec 6, 2015 22:25
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KittyEmpress posted:I think a big thing with PbP is you need to have peoples Skype/An Irc/something else to make a group with. And you have to force people to really, actually, interact. No matter what game it is, if people aren't talking and planning together it won't work. This is why Roll20 works great. A Maptool with built-in voice makes for a good communcation between players.
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Dec 6, 2015 22:33
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Drone posted:I could see it working if 1.) it was made clear from the get-go that players apply with the knowledge that they're expected to commit heavily to the RP and 2.) if the party size was kept smallish (3-4 PCs tops). It is a huge time commitment though... I knew it going in, but even I wasn't really prepared for the amount of time commitment that running a PbP narrative-heavy game would entail when I tried to do my Yuuzhan Vong reboot game (in hindsight, a really ambitious project for someone who'd never GM'd before). I'm very interested but I have lit no idea who else would be. If we're playing Imps then I'm Varon Karslan, who never learned how to press his dress uniform right.
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Dec 6, 2015 23:21
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