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Martman posted:For almost all his life in the movie Clark is just a really strong guy who can run fast and burn things. The world-ending potential comes in the form of technology that he knows nothing about. Also you seem to be saying the fact that aliens actually did invade in the movie provides evidence that it was a likely possibility he should have considered since childhood or whatever. Except, it's a fictional movie... through the magic of fiction, writers can make things happen regardless of the probability they would occur if this were taking place in the real world. I never claimed that revealing himself to governments would've been a simple, easy choice; there are no good choices here, not if we're going to stick with MoS's overall themes. Even in my revised narrative, transparency with the government would not somehow lead to a "good" outcome for Clark or the world. However, it would have been the responsible outcome, and we were talking specifically about Clark's responsibility or lack thereof. Security for the world or Security for himself; both options hold advantages and drawbacks, but the film did a poor job of illustrating the drawbacks of the latter. I was hoping the sequel would do a better job.
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Dec 5, 2015 04:07
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BrianWilly posted:I was hoping the sequel would do a better job. EDIT: quote:It is well and good if Clark's daddy issues are what kept him from transparency and thereby endangered the world, but if that's the case then he needs to own up to the consequences of this choice, this secrecy, and not act like everyone else is the problem. Martman fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 04:55
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Some of it from his conversation with General Swanwick, the rest of it from his conversation with Bruce. As if the idea that people might not like Superman is something that's barely ever crossed Clark's mind. "How could this rat bastard not be completely supportive of me, especially after all those positive articles my girlfriend wrote!!" (At least, I hope Lois wrote those puff pieces. It'd be a whole other level of hilarity if Clark wrote them about himself.) His response to Bruce's accusations is seriously "Whatever, other people disagree with you." BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 05:11
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BrianWilly posted:Some of it from his conversation with General Swanwick, the rest of it from his conversation with Bruce. As if the idea that people might be not like Superman is something that's barely ever crossed Clark's mind. "How could this rat bastard not be completely supportive of me, especially after all those positive articles my girlfriend wrote!!" They were written by Superman's Best Friend, Jenny Olsen.
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Dec 5, 2015 05:14
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Did people have this much trouble with movies before Man of Steel? Was there a 70s BrianWilly saying, "Surely Travis realizes that assassinating the senator won't persuade Betsy to give him another chance. If he really cared for her, his first order of business would be to clean up his act and find a better job" ?
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Dec 5, 2015 05:25
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Detective Dog Dick posted:Did people have this much trouble with movies before Man of Steel? Was there a 70s BrianWilly saying, "Surely Travis realizes that assassinating the senator won't persuade Betsy to give him another chance. If he really cared for her, his first order of business would be to clean up his act and find a better job" ? There's a BrianWilly in every generation.
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Dec 5, 2015 05:41
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No man he's right I invented movie criticism
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Dec 5, 2015 05:46
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BrianWilly posted:No man he's right I invented movie criticism That's a weird way of spelling whining.
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Dec 5, 2015 05:49
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I don't understand Kooyanisquatsi. If rapid industrialization and economic growth has turned society into a hellish maze-world that people navigate like insects in a hive and the planet's natural resources are being converted into one giant open sewer, why don't the characters simply abolish capitalism and fix things?
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Dec 5, 2015 05:58
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BrianWilly posted:His response to Bruce's accusations is seriously "Whatever, other people disagree with you." Dude, how did you see the movie already? Criticizing movies you haven't seen on plot is so loving goony, jesus.
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Dec 5, 2015 06:30
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BrianWilly posted:It is well and good if Clark's daddy issues are what kept him from transparency and thereby endangered the world, but if that's the case then he needs to own up to the consequences of this choice, this secrecy, and not act like everyone else is the problem. I disagree with this. Clark Kent is a person, not a robot. He may have special abilities, but he shouldn't submit himself to the government, especially if he's a kid or a teenager, because he doesn't know completely what he's capable of or what the government might actually do to him. His responsibility to himself comes first, because if he goes in to the government and they gently caress him up, then the world is out a Superman. It's the same reason that I don't just give all of my spare money to charity. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't give all my money away because if I allow myself to continue to live a happy life as I gain experience and time, I could potentially end up in a job where I'm paid a lot more. Life has so many twists and turns that any decision that we make on in a broad sense can be construed as both good and bad, because we don't know what will result. Clark didn't know about Zod's invasion, so when he discovered his abilities, or even when he became an adult, he didn't know that the responsible thing to do would be to turn himself in, and we don't know that it would have made things better. You can say "well they would have had time to plan better for this invasion, but what happens if the government decides his power is too great, so they just lock him in a lightless room, scared of the consequences that power like that could bring. Even if they hauled him out when Zod showed up, he wouldn't know what to do, and he might not feel any sort of responsibility to help the people who had him locked up all that time. Basically, you can't blame someone for making that sort of broad life decision because we can't see the future, and no one really knows whether that will hurt or help in the long run. We can make up all sorts of "what ifs" about the movie, just like in life, but we have what we're given, and we can't go back and change it, so we have to make the future as good as we can with the information and resources we have.
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Dec 5, 2015 06:41
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Yoshifan823 posted:I disagree with this. Clark Kent is a person, not a robot. He may have special abilities, but he shouldn't submit himself to the government, especially if he's a kid or a teenager, because he doesn't know completely what he's capable of or what the government might actually do to him. His responsibility to himself comes first, because if he goes in to the government and they gently caress him up, then the world is out a Superman. It's the same reason that I don't just give all of my spare money to charity. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't give all my money away because if I allow myself to continue to live a happy life as I gain experience and time, I could potentially end up in a job where I'm paid a lot more. Life has so many twists and turns that any decision that we make on in a broad sense can be construed as both good and bad, because we don't know what will result. Clark didn't know about Zod's invasion, so when he discovered his abilities, or even when he became an adult, he didn't know that the responsible thing to do would be to turn himself in, and we don't know that it would have made things better. You can say "well they would have had time to plan better for this invasion, but what happens if the government decides his power is too great, so they just lock him in a lightless room, scared of the consequences that power like that could bring. Even if they hauled him out when Zod showed up, he wouldn't know what to do, and he might not feel any sort of responsibility to help the people who had him locked up all that time. It's really a question of whether Superman should be allowed this luxury of self-entitlement. Whether he, by his very existence, is entitled to a life outside of his responsibility. Folks love a good Christ analogy, don't they? Well, it doesn't get any plainer, any more Christlike, than this. He either sacrifices himself for humanity or he's a false savior. Batman would of course argue that Superman must sacrifice his livelihood for the good of all, because Batman knows nothing else. Martyrdom is the only rule in his book, the only language he speaks. How dare this Superman be allowed anything else? If Superman proves that you don't need to give your entire life to the cause, then what has Batman's entire life been given for? I think that if Clark had given himself up to the government for the world's peace of mind, he would constantly wonder if he's made the right choice, what his life would be like if he had chosen to live for himself instead. What I would like to see is for Clark, having chosen to live for himself, to wonder if maybe things wouldn't be better off if he had done otherwise, if maybe he's made a huge mistake by not being as utterly self-sacrificing as he could've been. Even if that wasn't a mistake, how would he know that? 'Cuz of how great a job he's been doing?
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Dec 5, 2015 07:46
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BrianWilly posted:These are good points. That is psychotic and doesn't even understand Christ at all. Christ still had a life, he still had wants and desires. He still was a human being, no matter what else. He got angry, he had friends, he didn't just jump on the cross and die for our sins because Seriously gently caress you. Just, what the actual gently caress.
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Dec 5, 2015 07:49
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Burkion posted:Christ still had a life, he still had wants and desires. He still was a human being, no matter what else. He got angry, he had friends, he didn't just jump on the cross and die for our sins because Isn't that the whole point of it? Jesus did have all of those things. He had a good life, he had friends and family and a good life flipping tables. But he was forced to sacrifice all that for a higher purpose, to fulfill his true destiny.
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Dec 5, 2015 07:56
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BrianWilly posted:These are good points. Yeah, a big thing between Batman and Superman is the former is so scared of the latter's power because he knows what he would do with all that power, and he's scared that either Superman doesn't have the same agenda as him (because he can't see into Superman's mind) or he's scared because he feels no one deserves that level of power, because there is no regulation of it (he's working on a much smaller scale so he's not the same). Batman has no empathy, just a sense of justice that's severely hosed up because he lost his parents. The main difference between Jesus and Superman is that Jesus has a direct order from God to sacrifice himself, Superman doesn't know. Jesus would never know to let himself be crucified if God didn't tell him to, he would have kept going out and doing good and preaching. Superman is christian, so he knows/believes that Jesus has already sacrificed himself for our sins, so Superman must follow his example. Actually, Batman is a great argument for why Superman should allow himself to care about himself, because Batman with Superman's power from birth, but still having the inciting incident that led him to be Batman, would be the horrible fascist that he's scared Superman would be.
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Dec 5, 2015 07:58
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BrianWilly posted:Did you really just get triggered because Not My Jesus? You don't get to pull the Not My Jesus card, and seriously really dude? when you're the one trying to compare some one to him. Like that's not how this works. That's not how anything works. It's like comparing some one to Anne Frank because they weren't brave enough before they died. It's really stupid and misses all of the points. Just all of them. Superman is not Christ, he has no reason to throw his life away any more than he already has- which he definitely had by the point of Man of Steel. He does You know what no. I'm not doing this. You can do whatever the gently caress you like this is stupid.
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Dec 5, 2015 08:03
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Jesus Christ, dude.
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Dec 5, 2015 08:06
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BrianWilly posted:Isn't that the whole point of it? Jesus did have all of those things. He had a good life, he had friends and family and a good life flipping tables. But he was forced to sacrifice all that for a higher purpose, to fulfill his true destiny. About how old was Jesus when he started his ministry, putting himself out there as the son of God, open to the public?
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Dec 5, 2015 08:25
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Detective Dog Dick posted:I don't understand Kooyanisquatsi. If rapid industrialization and economic growth has turned society into a hellish maze-world that people navigate like insects in a hive and the planet's natural resources are being converted into one giant open sewer, why don't the characters simply abolish capitalism and fix things? Erm, actually, it's up to Superman to fix everything, and everything bad that happens is his fault and no-one else's, especially the people who are doing it.
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Dec 5, 2015 08:31
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Burkion posted:You don't get to pull the Not My Jesus card, and seriously really dude? when you're the one trying to compare some one to him. I mean, come on man, they obviously made allusions to Jesus through the entire movie. Even if Superman doesn't have the same responsibility, he does have the same potential.
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Dec 5, 2015 08:39
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On the subject of Christ and Superman, I'm reading this biography of Siegel and Shuster and I conclude that originally there was no religious symbolism to Superman. Siegel and Shuster were not practicing Jews, and AFAIK they never admitted any religious symbolism in their works. Reading the oldest Superman stories, I find no religious symbolism. His powers were not supernatural but the product of being millions of years more evolved than humans. He was not a humble servant of God nor some sort of messiah for all humanity. The messianic overtones to Superman were introduced by later writers (the Donner films in particular). This is also true regarding the theme of the immigrant. The oldest Superman stories don't make a big deal about Superman being an alien. Siegel and Shuster were born and raised in America and didn't seem to have serious issues with fitting in or anti-Semitism. Siegel's Superman didn't concern himself much with responsibility. He was in fact a bit of a jerk (but always in the name of helping people). Kurzon fucked around with this message at 09:01 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 08:50
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Early Superman is more of a rumination on the concept of the Ubermensch than openly religious.
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Dec 5, 2015 09:05
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BrianWilly posted:Did you really just get triggered because Not My Jesus?
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Dec 5, 2015 09:24
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Superman has a moral obligation to die imo.
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Dec 5, 2015 09:25
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BrianWilly posted:Did you really just get triggered because Not My Jesus? God, how boring of a person do you have to be to write a sentence like this
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Dec 5, 2015 09:27
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Yoshifan823 posted:I mean, come on man, they obviously made allusions to Jesus through the entire movie. Even if Superman doesn't have the same responsibility, he does have the same potential. His sacrifice would be in the form of saving humanity from x or y disaster, potentially putting his life on the line in the way that fire fighters do. What Steamboat Willy is suggesting is absolutely idiotic because he thinks the government would harness and weaponize Superman's abilities, and then only use it for purely defensive purposes should aliens ever arrive. If anything, you'd see the US rise to become an Uber power, forever unchallenged because, technologically, it's 1000 years ahead of everyone else. Sure as gently caress isn't like they're going to say, "Oh, well I guess we'd better share this tech to even the playing field." I mean, I guess it could end up being the most peaceful time in history, but I don't know that everyone would enjoy living under the thumb of a nation that simply can't be defeated militarily, and can and will do as it pleases knowing no one and nothing can stop them. Meanwhile, Superman has done almost nothing in the way of good because he's locked up in a room flooded with red sunlight. Great, sacrifice complete. You accomplished nothing, Supes. Thanks for believing in humanity. It'd be pretty hilarious if the Apokalypse Knightmare sequence is actually what Wayne thinks would happen if Superman became a government stooge, and did their bidding, similar to in TDKR. Xeremides fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 10:37
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Why the gently caress are you guys even talking to BrianWilly right now and acting all frustrated? Like, holy poo poo it is you who is the loving dumb one. You know the response you're going to get, and acting offended is boring. Either roll with his wonky discussion and be entertained, or quit loving talking to him.Yoshifan823 posted:Yeah, a big thing between Batman and Superman is the former is so scared of the latter's power because he knows what he would do with all that power, and he's scared that either Superman doesn't have the same agenda as him (because he can't see into Superman's mind) or he's scared because he feels no one deserves that level of power, because there is no regulation of it (he's working on a much smaller scale so he's not the same). Batman has no empathy, just a sense of justice that's severely hosed up because he lost his parents. This is wrong, and not in a NOT MY Batman way. Batman knows what OTHER people would do with that power when push comes to shove, and believes Clark to be just like _other people_, not knowing him very well. Batman has empathy, can't you see him hugging and comforting the girl he saves as the city crashes and burns around him? Can't you see him screaming in anger and pain as the buildings tumble? I can pretty much guarantee he's not thinking about dipping stock prices during that destruction. His pissed off at the alien for hurting people, loving up a city, and upset that other people are getting hurt. Drifter fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 15:18
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Yoshifan823 posted:Yeah, a big thing between Batman and Superman is the former is so scared of the latter's power because he knows what he would do with all that power, and he's scared that either Superman doesn't have the same agenda as him (because he can't see into Superman's mind) or he's scared because he feels no one deserves that level of power, because there is no regulation of it (he's working on a much smaller scale so he's not the same). Batman has no empathy, just a sense of justice that's severely hosed up because he lost his parents. And Batman is also a really nice guy. Unless Frank Miller is writing him, Batman is usually not a jerk. Yoshifan823 posted:The main difference between Jesus and Superman is that Jesus has a direct order from God to sacrifice himself, Superman doesn't know. Jesus would never know to let himself be crucified if God didn't tell him to, he would have kept going out and doing good and preaching. Superman is christian, so he knows/believes that Jesus has already sacrificed himself for our sins, so Superman must follow his example.
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Dec 5, 2015 15:42
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Kurzon posted:And Batman is also a really nice guy. Unless Frank Miller is writing him, Batman is usually not a jerk. I thought batman was pretty much always a dick, just slightly less dickish to his family. I don't think I've ever seen any version of him outside of the old stuff where he's ever been shown to be a "nice guy".
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Dec 5, 2015 15:55
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Kin posted:I thought batman was pretty much always a dick, just slightly less dickish to his family. Yeah, at least in his animated versions he's always kind of a loner at best, and bitter and sour at worst (mostly when he's an old man).
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Dec 5, 2015 15:57
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Kin posted:I thought batman was pretty much always a dick, just slightly less dickish to his family.
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Dec 5, 2015 16:04
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Drifter posted:Batman has empathy, can't you see him hugging and comforting the girl he saves as the city crashes and burns around him? Can't you see him screaming in anger and pain as the buildings tumble? I can pretty much guarantee he's not thinking about dipping stock prices during that destruction. His pissed off at the alien for hurting people, loving up a city, and upset that other people are getting hurt. Those are his people getting hurt and killed. That can suggest empathy, but not necessarily.
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Dec 5, 2015 16:06
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Snowman_McK posted:Those are his people getting hurt and killed. That can suggest empathy, but not necessarily. He must have had so much insurance and OH&S paperwork to fill out after all those employee deaths in the workplace, it's no wonder he's miffed. Those forms probably didn't have a checkbox for 'alien invasion'.
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Dec 5, 2015 16:09
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If he literally had no empathy, he wouldn't care even for "his own people" (whatever you mean by that).
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Dec 5, 2015 16:09
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Kurzon posted:If he literally had no empathy, he wouldn't care even for "his own people" (whatever you mean by that). I think he means he views his employees more as a resource than people, so he's upset at what these two aliens have done to him by destroying his building and killing his employees/wasting his resources. I don't buy it, personally. Batman is a crazy person, but I don't know that he's a sociopath.
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Dec 5, 2015 16:32
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If Batman was a psychopath in the scientific sense of the term, he wouldn't have given a poo poo about his parents' death and thus would not have become Batman.
Kurzon fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 16:57
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Kurzon posted:If he literally had no empathy, he wouldn't care even for "his own people" (whatever you mean by that). His people. His employees. His social group. His adopted work family. People he is directly responsible for. Kurzon posted:If he literally had no empathy, he wouldn't care even for "his own people" (whatever you mean by that). Kurzon posted:If Batman was a psychopath in the scientific sense of the term, he wouldn't have given a poo poo about his parents' death and thus would not have become Batman. There are all flavours of crazy. That he isn't one doesn't mean he isn't another. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 17:12
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Snowman_McK posted:His people. His employees. His social group. His adopted work family. People he is directly responsible for. If he didn't experience empathy, or had a reduced ability to experience empathy, I don't think he'd be Batman. This is a guy who feels emotion so strongly that a single event has defined his entire life. He isn't trying to stop his parents from being murdered. He's trying to stop it from ever happening to someone else. This is a man who goes out of his way night after night to protect and save people, both directly and indirectly, and he did it because he realized he couldn't rely on law enforcement to do it. If someone can misconstrue that to mean Batman is being entirely selfish in his one-man war against crime, I think that says more about that person than a make believe character. He's absolutely a crazy person, but his insanity has less to do with his inability, or a retarded ability, to empathize with others and more to do with his obsession and singular focus on the concept of justice. Xeremides fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 17:20
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Xeremides posted:He's absolutely a crazy person, but his insanity has less to do with his inability, or a retarded ability, to empathize with others and more to do with his obsession and singular focus on the concept of justice. This, and massive paranoia and distrust due to learning very early that the world can be dangerous and take away your support structure.
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Dec 5, 2015 18:08
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Batman is crazy, and has a constant fear that his crazy will make him something like The Joker, and tries his best to maintain that line, while believe he can redeem people that have crossed it. The Joker is the opposite, on the other side of that line ,basically.
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Dec 5, 2015 18:28
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