Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion

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anomieatthegates: Nov 21, 2015; by zen death robot

Dr. Kloctopussy posted:

A bunch of good stuff about setting up a writing group's critiques.

Thanks, that was useful.

I think the simplest form for small groups is "Dislike, Like." I like to do the "dislikes" first because if the author tunes out, they tune back in for the "likes."

Dr. Kloctopussy posted:

ALSO. As long as it's not overwhelming negative, I love listening to people talk about my writing, so I dunno what's up with people just tuning other people out during critique groups. It's soooooooo flattering that they are giving you this time and effort and attention. Bask in it. BASK IN IT.

Somebody has taken the time to read your work, and, beyond that, engage with it. Whether they loved or hated it, you're connecting with them in a way you can with few other readers. On top of that, they're discussing it like a work of art, not a hobby you do sometimes, or something dismissive like that. Even the toughest critique is saying "you can do better, we believe you can do better, go do better. We think this writing is worth the work you're putting in. Keep going." It's a challenge.

# ? Nov 24, 2015 08:35

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# ? May 14, 2024 09:43

flerp: Feb 25, 2014

Dr. Kloctopussy posted:

Hey, I just wrote this big thing about critiques in writing groups on a friend's Facebook, because I am like this IRL, too.

I've found that asking questions about what the writer meant ends up with too much of the writer talking about what they wanted to say instead of the critiques focusing on what the words actually said. It might just be a function of working in a group of primarily "beginner writers," but in my experience, that results in more explanation and excuses from the writer, and less constructive feedback from the critiquers. There is actually LESS listening.

What has worked best in my groups is setting up a structure for the feedback, like "first we will talk about how you dealt with setting, then plot, then characters, then dialogue." Or "let's start with where this scene could be improved, then what you did well." Or sometimes with what aspects the author had specific questions about, i.e. "man, writing the dialogue in this scene was like pulling teeth. Was reading it the same?"

Hopefully obviously, there weren't rigid lines within the discussions. You can hardly discuss plot effectively without discussing characterization, or characterization without discussing dialogue. Mentioning "setting" as a separate category feels almost bizarre to me now, but the group in question was formed as a follow-along to the Brandon Sanderson lecture series, so we were all writing fantasy/sci-fi novels, and effectively conveying setting was pretty important in the first several chapters at least, and definitely deserved its own topic, but as you know, setting can't just be dropped in whole-sale, so even those discussions overlapped with other topics. Having conversational "sub-headings" meant that practically no discussion started with "I liked this, but..." or "I didn't really like this, but..." Instead the author might get the impression that people overall liked or disliked one aspect, and possibly stop listening, but would start listening again when we moved on.

The general "like/dislike" grouping worked well, too, at least within our small group, once we all knew each other pretty well. Not gonna lie, I probably listened a little bit harder to all of the things people liked, because "yay praise!" But I did also pay attention to each of the things that people disliked. And because of the way it was organized, there was discussion around each point. Someone would like something, and another person might dislike it. Someone else would have a third opinion like "I liked/disliked it for a different reason."

When we addressed the author's own uncertainties about a scene/chapter, I think they were just inherently likely to listen to everything we had to say because we were going over something they had already thought about a lot. Although maybe they just wanted confirmation for their gut feelings. I'm trying to remember how I react in these particular situations, and am realizing that I cannot give a reliable answer.

One thing that, in my opinion, made a huge difference in this group, was that we were very strongly encouraged to make a few WRITTEN notes about our opinions on each sub-topic of discussion for each piece we were discussing. So if we were going to approach a critique from a like/dislike, we would all come into it with a short list of the things we liked/disliked the most on every single point, and would try to make sure each of those was covered. I find it's easy to read a piece and have a vague opinion about it, and then get into a critique group and just kind of go along with what someone else is saying and not contribute much, honestly. Having those written notes beforehand made for a much richer experience all around.

ALSO. As long as it's not overwhelming negative, I love listening to people talk about my writing, so I dunno what's up with people just tuning other people out during critique groups. It's soooooooo flattering that they are giving you this time and effort and attention. Bask in it. BASK IN IT.

# ? Nov 24, 2015 09:10

Sitting Here: Dec 31, 2007

I'd like some fictional advice please

# ? Dec 2, 2015 01:33

docbeard: Jul 19, 2011

Sitting Here posted:

I'd like some fictional advice please

Once upon a time there was a person who wanted to give Sitting Here some advice.

But he couldn't!

And then he figured out a way how to.

The End.

# ? Dec 2, 2015 01:36

flerp: Feb 25, 2014

Sitting Here posted:

I'd like some fictional advice please

adopt a fiction from a shelter, they need good homes.

# ? Dec 2, 2015 01:38

magnificent7: Sep 22, 2005; THUNDERDOME LOSER

Sitting Here posted:

I'd like some fictional advice please

Give up.

# ? Dec 2, 2015 01:41

Sitting Here: Dec 31, 2007

docbeard posted:

Once, upon a time, there was a person whom wanted to give Sitting Here some advice.

But, he couldn't; and then he figured out a way how to--The End.

hey I decided to workshop your post a little, lemme know what you think of my edits

# ? Dec 2, 2015 01:52

Sitting Here: Dec 31, 2007

i'm having this problem where I can't get my dependent clauses to talk to my conjunctions? I've tried rerouting them through the primary adverbial clauses but no dice. limping along on sentence fragments here, HALP :ohdear:

I did just modify my syntax with an off-market auxiliary verb mod, but that wouldn't have any effect on my clauses would it???

# ? Dec 2, 2015 01:59

flerp: Feb 25, 2014

Sitting Here posted:

i'm having this problem where I can't get my dependent clauses to talk to my conjunctions? I've tried rerouting them through the primary adverbial clauses but no dice. limping along on sentence fragments here, HALP

I did just modify my syntax with an off-market auxiliary verb mod, but that wouldn't have any effect on my clauses would it???

have you asked your dependent clauses how they feel? and dont interrupt them, just let them know your there to listen. and REALLY listen.

# ? Dec 2, 2015 02:01

docbeard: Jul 19, 2011

Sitting Here posted:

hey I decided to workshop your post a little, lemme know what you think of my edits

Brilliant; and? sublim-e

# ? Dec 2, 2015 02:37

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

Thanks to those of you who critiqued 'Morrigan in Shadow' way back, it's up on Clarkesworld today!

# ? Dec 2, 2015 04:31

newtestleper: Oct 30, 2003

General Battuta posted:

Thanks to those of you who critiqued 'Morrigan in Shadow' way back, it's up on Clarkesworld today!

Congratulations! That's awesome!

# ? Dec 2, 2015 04:43

Magic Rabbit Hat: Nov 4, 2006; Just follow along if you don't wanna get neutered.

Hey there, is it kosher to post some of my words here? I've been playing around and editing a story I wrote on Monday and I think I've hit the point where I could use some critique from other writers. It comes to about 1700 words but I'm a bit gun shy about starting a new thread, since I'm not usually active in this subforum.

# ? Dec 2, 2015 23:42

crabrock: Aug 2, 2002; I

AM

MAGNIFICENT

start a new thread, literally nobody will care

and then link it, because who actually reads CC thread list?

# ? Dec 3, 2015 03:25

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Sitting Here posted:

I'd like some fictional advice please

There�s no such thing as �being a writer.� THERE IS ONLY WRITING.

AND HAVING WRITTEN, I GUESS.

Going to write soon definitely doesn�t count. Therefore, you must write. More.

Learning how you, YOURSELF can get words on the page is one of the biggest parts of learning to write.

IT�S ALL ABOUT WHAT WORKS FOR YOU

There�s no one magical perfect solution that universally gets everyone to write more. You�ve got to figure out what�s going to work for you. I keep repeating this thought over and over about everything because it�s true. The following are some techniques that have worked for other people, and which you should maybe try. Trying things is important. Don�t just dismiss them out of hand because you think they won�t work for you. Just keep trying things. Over and over again. Maybe you need to combine a few. Maybe you will invent your own and share it with all of us. Maybe something will work for a while and then stop. At that point, try something else. I know someone who did great with pomodoro for several months, then it quit working and he discovered that changing locations worked great. Never give up!

# ? Dec 4, 2015 00:08

Sitting Here: Dec 31, 2007

Dr. Kloctopussy posted:

There�s no such thing as �being a writer.� THERE IS ONLY WRITING.

AND HAVING WRITTEN, I GUESS.

Going to write soon definitely doesn�t count. Therefore, you must write. More.

Learning how you, YOURSELF can get words on the page is one of the biggest parts of learning to write.

IT�S ALL ABOUT WHAT WORKS FOR YOU

There�s no one magical perfect solution that universally gets everyone to write more. You�ve got to figure out what�s going to work for you. I keep repeating this thought over and over about everything because it�s true. The following are some techniques that have worked for other people, and which you should maybe try. Trying things is important. Don�t just dismiss them out of hand because you think they won�t work for you. Just keep trying things. Over and over again. Maybe you need to combine a few. Maybe you will invent your own and share it with all of us. Maybe something will work for a while and then stop. At that point, try something else. I know someone who did great with pomodoro for several months, then it quit working and he discovered that changing locations worked great. Never give up!

General Battuta posted:

Thanks to those of you who critiqued 'Morrigan in Shadow' way back, it's up on Clarkesworld today!

Grats dude, you are an inspiration

# ? Dec 4, 2015 08:45

SkaAndScreenplays: Dec 11, 2013; by Pragmatica

Sitting Here posted:

I'd like some fictional advice please

Something Arrogant, indiscriminately attached to an image of a dead celebrity.

# ? Dec 4, 2015 12:53

change my name: Aug 27, 2007; Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.

"Just sit down and write the book, dummy."
-Albert Einstein

# ? Dec 4, 2015 16:22

angel opportunity: Sep 7, 2004; Total Eclipse of the Heart

# ? Dec 4, 2015 18:13

klapman: Aug 27, 2012; this char is good

I have written chapter seven of my stupid swordmans magic book three loving times now and if it isnt good enough real god drat soon im going to kill myself.

the worst part is going back and realizing that my last chapters have been pretty good and then this latest one its like "haha ive actually been a idiot fuckhead all along fooled u reader welcome to my description of how grey this cloud is its a METAPHOR for FEELINGS get it?!?!??!" p.s. scary things happen and u are seriously spooked dude!!!

It's like that but it takes me 1500-2500 words and then I look at it and see the eighteen ways it takes the story completely off the rails, and then I write it all over again, read it, and find i've hosed it up in six ways this time instead. When I started the book it was way, way easier than this. I've already tried taking a day-long break, some storyboarding, even those web association things and it's given me good ideas about the characters, but since i'm not writing at that exact moment its harder for me to work it in. It's almost like i'm supposed to plan this poo poo a little before I do it instead of just "lol write 1500-2500 word chapter a day and make book happy good"

klapman fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Dec 4, 2015

# ? Dec 4, 2015 18:52

ravenkult: Feb 3, 2011

Write faster, outrun your lack of talent.

# ? Dec 4, 2015 19:00

klapman: Aug 27, 2012; this char is good

ravenkult posted:

Write faster, outrun your lack of talent.

Yeah you know what, you're right, gently caress this garbage i'm just gonna write a lovely chapter and get on with it. If there can be any semblance of a decent chapter eight that's good the gently caress enough.

# ? Dec 4, 2015 19:02

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

klapman posted:

Yeah you know what, you're right, gently caress this garbage i'm just gonna write a lovely chapter and get on with it. If there can be any semblance of a decent chapter eight that's good the gently caress enough.

You build up to writing good stuff by writing out bad stuff first. Since no one is going to see your first draft it doesn't matter if it's poo poo or not. When you finish the book then you can go back to chapter 7 and you'll have a much better idea about what needs to be changed to make it fit in better with the novel. I bet a lot will change for your book between now and the end of it.

# ? Dec 4, 2015 19:29

klapman: Aug 27, 2012; this char is good

HIJK posted:

You build up to writing good stuff by writing out bad stuff first. Since no one is going to see your first draft it doesn't matter if it's poo poo or not. When you finish the book then you can go back to chapter 7 and you'll have a much better idea about what needs to be changed to make it fit in better with the novel. I bet a lot will change for your book between now and the end of it.

It is done, and the beast known as Chapter Seven is slain. Definitely still looking forward to going back and tightening it up, but this time I managed to keep from derailing the theme in an insanely stupid way, and didn't leave any strange plot holes. I know i've got to write the garbage first, but when I go bad it's not just boring, it's a wild departure from everything that's happened, and I just can't build further chapters off of that. I'm expecting to run into a lot more chapter sevens in this thing, but honestly the idea of just "gently caress it just stop worrying about it and put in a couple hours and see what happens" is really helpful. Sometimes it's not some ingenious idea or flash of inspiration, sometimes you just have to sit there and do something.

I'm glad I moved on from just short stories, it means I have to actually deal with poo poo like this instead of just shelving it indefinitely when I don't feel a perfect storm blowing my way. It's a lot more fulfilling, honestly.

# ? Dec 4, 2015 20:10

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

klapman posted:

It is done, and the beast known as Chapter Seven is slain. Definitely still looking forward to going back and tightening it up, but this time I managed to keep from derailing the theme in an insanely stupid way, and didn't leave any strange plot holes. I know i've got to write the garbage first, but when I go bad it's not just boring, it's a wild departure from everything that's happened, and I just can't build further chapters off of that. I'm expecting to run into a lot more chapter sevens in this thing, but honestly the idea of just "gently caress it just stop worrying about it and put in a couple hours and see what happens" is really helpful. Sometimes it's not some ingenious idea or flash of inspiration, sometimes you just have to sit there and do something.

I'm glad I moved on from just short stories, it means I have to actually deal with poo poo like this instead of just shelving it indefinitely when I don't feel a perfect storm blowing my way. It's a lot more fulfilling, honestly.

I'm legit proud of you, actually finishing stuff is incredibly tough. Salvaging the chapter enough to keep it from producing plotholes is a great achievment too. :unsmith:

The holy grail of all writing advice is just Butt In Chair. Once we have stuff to work with then the rest of the nittygritty comes into play but until then...

# ? Dec 4, 2015 20:27

klapman: Aug 27, 2012; this char is good

HIJK posted:

I'm legit proud of you, actually finishing stuff is incredibly tough. Salvaging the chapter enough to keep it from producing plotholes is a great achievment too.

The holy grail of all writing advice is just Butt In Chair. Once we have stuff to work with then the rest of the nittygritty comes into play but until then...

Yeah, it was honestly kinda awesome. It's the difference between only going into the ring when your opponent is a 10 year old with a mean streak, and fighting the heavyweight champ and winning with your face a bloodied mess. Honestly until I started writing this thing I didn't even feel like I had any passion for writing, that it was just something I happened to be pretty good at, and then one of my friends asked me to critique a story of his. I thought I was being pretty kind, but I forgot that I was only being kind compared to my self-criticism and he was looking at me like I just ripped his balls off with my teeth.

On a related note i've told my friends that if I ever start referring to myself as anything other than the most diseased loving idiot to ever put my hands on a keyboard that they're to stop reading my poo poo immediately

e: im going to hook up an electroshock machine to my head and everytime I type "the sound of X echoed through Y" its going to deliver a near-lethal dose to my brain

klapman fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Dec 5, 2015

# ? Dec 5, 2015 18:08

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

klapman there is no chapter of my novel that I didn't write a minimum of three times. It is ok if it is not great right now. As you continue with the story you will get better ideas about how the previous parts need to go.

# ? Dec 5, 2015 22:51

change my name: Aug 27, 2007; Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.

Help does anyone have any advice about taking the paring knife to your book

I feel like 100k words is too long to query for a first time author

# ? Dec 6, 2015 20:10

klapman: Aug 27, 2012; this char is good

Defenestration posted:

klapman there is no chapter of my novel that I didn't write a minimum of three times. It is ok if it is not great right now. As you continue with the story you will get better ideas about how the previous parts need to go.

Yeah, it definitely seems that way so far. I'm already at the point where i'm starting to write out one of the characters I thought would take center stage, and only the advice of this thread has kept me from going back and re-editing every single chapter to reflect as such. The guy who's meant to be a fairly good guardsman tried throwing a punch at the barkeep, who punished him by having him help out for a day. He did such a good job that the barkeep and the guard captain are basically bidding over him now, which is way more entertaining than just "oh he did a bad but now good guard".

change my name posted:

Help does anyone have any advice about taking the paring knife to your book

I feel like 100k words is too long to query for a first time author

I've only got experience writing short stories, but personally i'd try and cut every single word that ends with "ly" and see how it reads. Historically, those have been a solid tenth of my word count or something nutbar like that.

# ? Dec 6, 2015 20:15

Megazver: Jan 13, 2006

change my name posted:

Help does anyone have any advice about taking the paring knife to your book

I feel like 100k words is too long to query for a first time author

http://smile.amazon.com/Self-Editing-Fiction-Writers-Second-Yourself/dp/0060545690

# ? Dec 6, 2015 20:22

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Cut the entire first chapter. It will almost certainly read better

# ? Dec 6, 2015 20:32

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

change my name posted:

Help does anyone have any advice about taking the paring knife to your book

I feel like 100k words is too long to query for a first time author

Save a new file and rename it Short Version. Give yourself a goal word count that's nice and low. Then start deleting. Anything that is not crucial to understanding the plot goes. This is prime murder your darling area. (but don't worry, they're still in the long version if you want them back later)

Depending on your temperament, you can track the word count as you go to hit your goal or do a pass front to back and see how it lands.

# ? Dec 6, 2015 20:37

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

100k is perfectly reasonable for a first time author, especially in fantasy.

# ? Dec 6, 2015 21:46

change my name: Aug 27, 2007; Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.

General Battuta posted:

100k is perfectly reasonable for a first time author, especially in fantasy.

Eh, I've heard responses ranging from "that's fine" to "pushing it", but I figure if I've ended up at 100k, I should be trimming it down as I edit? Of course a first draft is going to be more bloated than something I've gone over a few times. It's just not getting trimmed as much as I was expecting.

# ? Dec 6, 2015 21:49

NiffStipples: Jun 3, 2011

change my name posted:

Eh, I've heard responses ranging from "that's fine" to "pushing it", but I figure if I've ended up at 100k, I should be trimming it down as I edit? Of course a first draft is going to be more bloated than something I've gone over a few times. It's just not getting trimmed as much as I was expecting.

I personally don't write (or read) fantasy, but in my time of researching "Genre" and publication requirements, fantasy was usually given a little more leniency in word count since there's a lot of culture and lore to establish.

What I did was, I got out a notebook and for each chapter, gave an exact reason why I was writing that chapter. After that, I went back and reread only the longest paragraphs in every chapter and write a note on how this keeps the plot moving forward. In every paragraph, if I droned on about the color of the sky or how redundant my character's feelings were, I'd sum it up, cut the remaining 90%, find a way to make the paragraph completely unique, and then made sure it had at least one plot related device. If I couldn't make a paragraph unique, forward the plot, or setup something important for later, it didn't need to exist. I'm no Liberal Arts major and don't read as much as I'd like, but that's what I've been doing for 4 books now. Hope you can find a good method of doing this for your style of writing.

Also, I ended up killing my narrator when I realized he/she was a filthy, :geno:

faced, neutral.

:sludgepal:

_{...I'm much better off now}

NiffStipples fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Dec 7, 2015

# ? Dec 7, 2015 09:14

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

NiffStipples posted:

I personally don't write (or read) fantasy, but in my time of researching "Genre" and publication requirements, fantasy was usually given a little more leniency in word count since there's a lot of culture and lore to establish.

What I did was, I got out a notebook and for each chapter, gave an exact reason why I was writing that chapter. After that, I went back and reread only the longest paragraphs in every chapter and write a note on how this keeps the plot moving forward. In every paragraph, if I droned on about the color of the sky or how redundant my character's feelings were, I'd sum it up, cut the remaining 90%, find a way to make the paragraph completely unique, and then made sure it had at least one plot related device. If I couldn't make a paragraph unique, forward the plot, or setup something important for later, it didn't need to exist. I'm no Liberal Arts major and don't read as much as I'd like, but that's what I've been doing for 4 books now. Hope you can find a good method of doing this for your style of writing.

Also, I ended up killing my narrator when I realized he/she was a filthy, faced, neutral.

_{...I'm much better off now}

I can't decide if your methods are brilliant or nuts.

# ? Dec 7, 2015 09:45

POOL IS CLOSED: Jul 14, 2011; I'm just exploding with mackerel. This is the aji wo kutta of my discontent.; Pillbug

General Battuta posted:

100k is perfectly reasonable for a first time author, especially in fantasy.

I've gotten responses from agents indicating otherwise, so... :negative:

# ? Dec 7, 2015 15:19

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

That wasn't my experience, but maybe I got lucky. Are you possibly querying YA or new adult? I think those tend to run shorter...

# ? Dec 7, 2015 18:03

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Oh geez yeah, I'd heard 100-120k was fine even for first-time, for adult fantasy? If it's not anymore, geez, at least I'm early enough I can still fiddle my outline, but I'd like to know, haha.

# ? Dec 8, 2015 02:53

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# ? May 14, 2024 09:43

Screaming Idiot: Nov 26, 2007; JUST POSTING WHILE JERKIN' MY GHERKIN SITTIN' IN A PERKINS!

BEATS SELLING MERKINS.

I don't know if anyone's read Joe Abercrombie's Best Served Cold, but one of the gimmicks I enjoyed about it was that every chapter centered around a different character, and the narration switched to that character's voice. NiffStipples' remark about his narrator being a :geno:

-faced neutral made me think -- as "wacky" as I've tried to make my story and my characters out to be (alcoholic demon lord! giant robot angel! telekinetic cyborg parrot!), the narration is stiff at best and cripplingly, cringe-worthily awkward at worst. Would changing the narrative voice to fit the current character POV work better, or would I be better off trying to fix the narration on its own?

# ? Dec 8, 2015 11:25

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