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Radbot posted:No, it would simply turn some fatal shots into non-fatal shots. It's not as if police officers in America need much justification for lethal force, when compared to the justification required in western Europe. There would be more "shots" period. And since we'd be calling it something short of lethal force, they'd be quick to use in in circumstances where a baton, taser or (now I'm really taking off on flights of fancy) verbal de-escalation would be more appropriate. It gives latitude in judgment to American cops, and they've proven that they can't handle that. e: beaten by DV on the last page: Discendo Vox posted:Because the effect of introducing a leg shot policy is to expand the total set of situations in which police open fire.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:04
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The other risk is that cases of fatal shootings would now have further leeway to excuse the deaths as an accident, an inevitable part of the risk of using your gun for non-lethal wounds. Again, the changes in policing, corruption, and the court system having a pro-police bias that would allow for American cops to safely be trusted to use their gun as a safe alternative to tasing or beanbags would likely be such an incredible improvement in American policing as to make that leg shooting redundant.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:08
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Discendo Vox posted:Because the effect of introducing a leg shot policy is to expand the total set of situations in which police open fire. No, it doesn't. You'd only use this technique if you were otherwise going to shoot to kill. chitoryu12 posted:Exactly what ammo are you using for this? There's a huge variety of defensive ammo in use by police around the country with widely varying penetration. Lucky Gunner did a very good series of charts detailing their penetration tests of over 100 common defense rounds for .380 ACP, 9x19mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. Even among 9mm rounds (which are the highest velocity being tested), most of them were 18 inches or less of penetration. This is sufficient to reach the vital organs after passing through someone's arms and thick clothing, but that's about it. The bullets that exit the body will be coming out at very low velocities. The bullets that had massive overpenetration were generally faulty designs that failed to expand (usually from the hollow point being clogged with clothing). I don't give a gently caress about ballistics or any of that poo poo, beyond the fact that most rounds that most officers shoot around the world will still be lethal even if they have hit their target first.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:26
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Radbot posted:No, it doesn't. You'd only use this technique if you were otherwise going to shoot to kill.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:30
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twodot posted:That's obviously the ideal policy, but in reality introducing this policy means that at least one person is going to go for a leg shot when they weren't otherwise going to shoot to kill. From there the only question is "Are there more shootings incorrectly escalated to leg shots than (correctly executed leg shots - extra bystanders shot by missing a trickier target)?" Other countries have demonstrated it's at least possible to balance that equation, but I'd expect anyone proposing it for the US (across thousands of individual jurisdictions) to have a detailed plan before being taken seriously. And yet, it works in Europe. I'm OK with having one extra person shot in the leg in the current US policing environment, where people are routinely killed for contempt of cop. And if there's a bystander around, I'm OK with not shooting to disable.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:34
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Radbot posted:I don't give a gently caress about ballistics or any of that poo poo, beyond the fact that most rounds that most officers shoot around the world will still be lethal even if they have hit their target first.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:38
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Radbot posted:And yet, it works in Europe. I'm OK with having one extra person shot in the leg in the current US policing environment, where people are routinely killed for contempt of cop. And if there's a bystander around, I'm OK with not shooting to disable. Yes, we are attempting to point out the fundamental difference between police in Europe and America. American cops are trained to be brutal and to kill. They shouldn't be trusted to use a gun to do anything other than prevent themselves from being killed.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:45
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Discendo Vox posted:Because the effect of introducing a leg shot policy is to expand the total set of situations in which police open fire. No it does not. That's the point of the examples - they're all situations where US cops would shoot to kill under current policies.
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Dec 7, 2015 22:02
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Radbot posted:No, it doesn't. You'd only use this technique if you were otherwise going to shoot to kill. Look, you don't shoot to disable unless you still have time to shoot to kill if that fails to work. If you don't have to shoot to kill right now then you shouldn't be shooting at all. Do we see a lot of cases of American cops shooting at the very fuzzy border of "they can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt I didn't have to shoot so I'm going to shoot"? Yes, absolutely, and we need to reform things so they're not shooting at all, not codify that behavior as good practice as long as they shoot to wound. Also your statement about JHPs that hit a target center mass being as dangerous to bystanders as stray missed shots is so ludicrously wrong that it's hard to take anything you say about firearms tactics seriously. They pretty much require a defective round and a ton of luck to pass through the target and even if they do they won't retain enough energy to do much damage to anything. Edit: also I'm just as guilty as anyone but aren't shoot to wound derails a banned topic in this thread? Maybe we should all just agree to disagree and move on without waiting for mom and dad to come yell at us. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Dec 7, 2015 |
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Dec 7, 2015 22:07
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Ornedan posted:No it does not. That's the point of the examples - they're all situations where US cops would shoot to kill under current policies. It's worth noting that the examples provided don't indicate that limb wounds were the product of an intentional policy of aiming at the limb.
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Dec 7, 2015 22:50
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The discussion of leg shots and warning shots is fascinating and all, but is there any interest in the fact that the US Dept. of Justice today announced they are investigating the Chicago PD with respect to their use of force among other things? Kind of a bigger entity than the Ferguson PD. Any chance of this resulting in changes in police practices, in Chicago and elsewhere, as a long term result? It is kind of serving notice that the DOJ is paying attention to all this.
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Dec 7, 2015 22:55
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Zwabu posted:The discussion of leg shots and warning shots is fascinating and all, but is there any interest in the fact that the US Dept. of Justice today announced they are investigating the Chicago PD with respect to their use of force among other things? Or speaking of Chicago, how it has been confirmed that different police reports directly contradict the evidence in the McDonald killing, but shocking to no one, there've been little to no followup from police. quote:Police officers who watched a colleague shoot a black Chicago teenager 16 times filed reports depicting a very different version of events than what dashcam footage showed, portraying the teen as far more menacing than he appeared in the video. Yup, that's right, they ruled the killing a "good shoot" without even looking at the dashcam evidence.
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Dec 7, 2015 23:06
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Zwabu posted:Kind of a bigger entity than the Ferguson PD. Any chance of this resulting in changes in police practices, in Chicago and elsewhere, as a long term result? It is kind of serving notice that the DOJ is paying attention to all this. Submarine Sandpaper fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Dec 7, 2015 |
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Dec 7, 2015 23:09
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Trabisnikof posted:Or speaking of Chicago, how it has been confirmed that different police reports directly contradict the evidence in the McDonald killing, but shocking to no one, there've been little to no followup from police. They had a warning out for a gunblade? 
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Dec 7, 2015 23:14
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Trabisnikof posted:Yup, that's right, they ruled the killing a "good shoot" without even looking at the dashcam evidence. And apparently we now have to fear the sword-gun. Thanks, Sqenix.
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Dec 7, 2015 23:14
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man i thought i was gonna be clever and post about FF8 gunblades but yall nerds too fast 
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Dec 7, 2015 23:19
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There really are knives that can fire bullets, but except for one or two Russian special forces knives that you'd be hard pressed to get your hands on they're all just homemade zip guns. Being afraid of a knife because it might shoot you is like being afraid of a pen or a pipe for the same reason.
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Dec 7, 2015 23:22
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Discendo Vox posted:It's worth noting that the examples provided don't indicate that limb wounds were the product of an intentional policy of aiming at the limb. So, to use the Denmark numbers as an example, hitting 51 people with 66 shots and wounding (rather than killing) 75% of them is just a big coincidence? And even if it that is just an accidental result rather than intentional policy, awesome, what can we do to get closer to those results? e: Adjusting those Danish numbers for population would correspond to US police shooting at about 3,750 people and hitting ~3,000 of them, with only ~625 ending up dead. That alone would actually be an improvement on single year stats for American police, but that's actually a decade's worth of data from Denmark. chitoryu12 posted:The German chart from earlier had incidents where suspects were shot and wounded, but survived (including suspects who were actively shooting at the police or victims). Combined with the low number of kills in comparison, this suggests that German police only fire until the shooter stops shooting and then delivers prompt medical attention instead of handcuffing their bleeding body. This seems like a good idea and was one of the suggestions originally offered in response to the San Francisco shooting, and is not mutually exclusive with disabling shots escalating to shots aimed to kill. Who are the people arguing for the current policy of a mag-dump as soon as a cop gets jumpy? AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Dec 8, 2015 |
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Dec 8, 2015 00:03
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:So, to use the Denmark numbers as an example, hitting 51 people with 66 shots and wounding (rather than killing) 75% of them is just a big coincidence? And even if it that is just an accidental result rather than intentional policy, awesome, what can we do to get closer to those results? The German chart from earlier had incidents where suspects were shot and wounded, but survived (including suspects who were actively shooting at the police or victims). Combined with the low number of kills in comparison, this suggests that German police only fire until the shooter stops shooting and then delivers prompt medical attention instead of handcuffing their bleeding body.
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Dec 8, 2015 00:06
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While I think European police are generally better then their american counterparts I don't think we're comparing apples to apples here. That Danish data makes it sound like no officers faced a single firearm at all that year (I'm going out on a limb here and assuming that since that Danish report includes all incidents when a weapon was pulled a Danish cop would have pulled their weapon if they were shot at). Meanwhile in the US using the latest available FBI LEOKA data we have have states like Alaska with less then 1/5 the population of Denmark at 26 assaults on an officer with a firearm (so say 130 adjusted), Colorado with a slightly higher population at 98, Arizona with about 7/5ths of the population at 217. The US also has 16x the firearm homicide rate of Denmark. US policing is not as dangerous as its made out to be, but its a lot more dangerous then policing in Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u..._group_2013.xls
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Dec 8, 2015 01:22
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Jarmak posted:but its a lot more dangerous then policing in Europe. Stats are always fun to look at though. That firearm homicide rate is despite the overall homicide rate only being 5.5x higher.
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Dec 8, 2015 10:24
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Jarmak posted:While I think European police are generally better then their american counterparts I don't think we're comparing apples to apples here. That Danish data makes it sound like no officers faced a single firearm at all that year (I'm going out on a limb here and assuming that since that Danish report includes all incidents when a weapon was pulled a Danish cop would have pulled their weapon if they were shot at). Meanwhile in the US using the latest available FBI LEOKA data we have have states like Alaska with less then 1/5 the population of Denmark at 26 assaults on an officer with a firearm (so say 130 adjusted), Colorado with a slightly higher population at 98, Arizona with about 7/5ths of the population at 217. The US also has 16x the firearm homicide rate of Denmark. The point is that US police shoot to kill when they're explicitly not faced with a firearm, as in the case of that crying black dude who was executed by 14 officers in broad daylight for not obeying orders. That guy had a knife. They knew that, because he had stabbed somebody. These are the cases that show how badly US police handle themselves when compared to their more civilized counterparts.
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Dec 8, 2015 10:38
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Update on the statistice from earlier: The guy wrote me back, but didn't say much overall. Training shots are not included in the larger shots fired number, so most of them are probably animals. There is no statistic for legshots, to the best of his knowledge. The source for the statistics is not public, but he told me where I can ask for tha data. That's probably not necessary though, since according to him, the raw data doesn't say much more than his version anyway.
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Dec 8, 2015 10:59
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botany posted:Update on the statistice from earlier: The guy wrote me back, but didn't say much overall. Training shots are not included in the larger shots fired number, so most of them are probably animals. There is no statistic for legshots, to the best of his knowledge. The source for the statistics is not public, but he told me where I can ask for tha data. That's probably not necessary though, since according to him, the raw data doesn't say much more than his version anyway. There may also be cases where the perpetrator was wounded but the officer wasn't intentionally shooting for a limb, and just happened to hit. Also, I'm trying to find an isolated video of a shooting that was included in a compilation of police shootings. It was an extremely obese man outside what looked like a Home Depot at night attacking someone with a knife. An officer attempted to beat him with the baton but failed to disarm or subdue him, so immediately returned to pointing a gun at him and screaming to drop the knife. When the man began slowly walking toward the store, the officer stepped in front of him and began shooting. He would pause after firing several rounds, see that the attacker had not fallen, then began firing again. This continued multiple times until nearly his entire magazine was fired into him. He didn't make any further demands to surrender between shootings. It didn't seem like he had any intention of letting the perpetrator surrender after being shot, and his goal was to fire until the target actually collapsed.
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Dec 8, 2015 19:12
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chitoryu12 posted:It didn't seem like he had any intention of letting the perpetrator surrender after being shot, and his goal was to fire until the target actually collapsed.
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Dec 8, 2015 23:42
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Rent-A-Cop posted:It seems a little unreasonable to assume that the guy getting shot after repeated warnings to stop stabbing people didn't understand the message of being shot multiple times and that another warning to stop being a lunatic would have helped. No attempt was made to find out after the first volley of shots except a single "DROP IT!" with a pause of less than a second after before continuing to shoot. It seems like the officer was dedicated to shooting until the target was on the ground, whether or not a less damaging amount of gunfire would have stopped him. For the record, the guy being shot wasn't continuing to advance on anyone with the blade during the shooting and spent most of it stumbling away from the bullets. This is the compilation featuring the video, beginning at 1:12. There's also some justifiable shoots in there (two made a fast draw of a gun and aimed it at officers immediately before being shot), but the first one has the bizarre attempt by the police to demand that the man currently bleeding to death on the ground show them his hands and then handcuffing him without beginning medical treatment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzEysZObe4Y chitoryu12 fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Dec 8, 2015 |
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Dec 8, 2015 23:52
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The talk of excessive lethal force makes me think of the London police response to the murder of Lee Rigby - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lee_Rigby#Attack After hacking off a dude's head, two terrorist wannabes threatened bystanders and waited for police to arrive. They then charged the police armed with a (broken) revolver and a machete. They both survived - they were shot at 8 times, but afterwards were given prompt care. There were no leg shots or shots to wound - they were lucky to survive the first volley. After that, the police stopped shooting as they were no longer a threat. In lighter news stolen from the relevant thread, a Secret Service agent just got six years for... well: quote:But perhaps Bridges' most paradoxical moment came when his duties involving White House security seemingly overlapped with his desire for bitcoins.
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Dec 9, 2015 18:10
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chitoryu12 posted:the first one has the bizarre attempt by the police to demand that the man currently bleeding to death on the ground show them his hands and then handcuffing him without beginning medical treatment.
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Dec 9, 2015 18:35
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Dead Reckoning posted:Well, the guy had literally just pulled a gun and tried to kill them, then fallen to the ground still holding it, so I can see why they might want to make sure they had him under control before setting him up with an IV. The officer on the radio calls for EMS as part of his "shots fired" call, and at 1:03, maybe 30 seconds after the gunfire, you can hear him direct one of the other officers to "get the EMS bag" and the two of them hustle out of frame right before the cut, so I don't know why you think the suspect didn't get prompt medical attention. I missed that quote. My mistake.
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Dec 9, 2015 19:07
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Daniel Holtzclaw (white cop accused of raping 13 black women) convicted of some stuff, acquitted of others. 20 years for forcible oral sodomy not guilty of rape 16 years for forcible oral sodomy 30 years for rape etc. etc. so jury at least believed some of the victims, I guess
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Dec 11, 2015 03:26
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http://gawker.com/daniel-holtzclaw-former-oklahoma-city-cop-found-guilt-1747453998 Here's a 6 miniute video oh him being read the verdict if your into that
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Dec 11, 2015 05:13
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Sinners Sandwich posted:http://gawker.com/daniel-holtzclaw-former-oklahoma-city-cop-found-guilt-1747453998 Watched every second of it. His pathetic crying made me happy. I hope he gets all 263 years with no possibility of parol.
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Dec 11, 2015 06:26
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“He was aggressive, he was vigilant, and he was honest,” Adams said. “Without people like Daniel Holtzclaw patrolling the streets, what are we?” According to BuzzFeed, a woman in the gallery responded: “Safe.”
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Dec 11, 2015 07:03
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ratbert90 posted:Watched every second of it. His pathetic crying made me happy. I hope he gets all 263 years with no possibility of parol. Yeah the statements by some of the victims were staggering. He was basically raping poor black woman with criminal records every chance he got, and many of them were too afraid to go public and face police harassment (he'd also show up at their houses and demand sexual favors days later) and it was a 50+ year old black woman he orally raped that immediately reported it as soon as she could, and suddenly several of his victims came forward to make statements. He was also pretty heavily insulated via his family connections quote:Holtzclaw was a star middle linebacker on the Eastern Michigan University football team and graduated with a degree in criminal justice. His father is a lieutenant on the Enid Police Department, the family said. He is also the brother-in-law of a law enforcement officer, The Oklahoman reported. So it's pretty much a testament to how many women he assaulted that this case even got off the ground. It wasn't like a handful of times, he probably assaulted dozens if not hundreds of women. Most of them were drug offenders or had arrests for prostitution and the defense's argument was "oh well these women are drug users"
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Dec 11, 2015 07:07
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pentyne posted:Yeah the statements by some of the victims were staggering. He was basically raping poor black woman with criminal records every chance he got, and many of them were too afraid to go public and face police harassment (he'd also show up at their houses and demand sexual favors days later) and it was a 50+ year old black woman he orally raped that immediately reported it as soon as she could, and suddenly several of his victims came forward to make statements. Yeah, this dude was complete scum, and I am glad he is off the streets.
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Dec 11, 2015 14:06
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It's likely there are other victims who didn't come forward as well
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Dec 11, 2015 14:17
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http://www.actionnewsnow.com/news/da-plays-dash-cam-video-in-accidental-shooting-no-charges-will-be-filed/quote:The Paradise police officer who investigators say accidentally shot a suspected DUI driver in the neck last month will not face criminal charges, Butte County District Attorney Mike Ramsey announced Thursday. Video is in the link, relevant stuff starts about :45 in, and it doesn't look good to me. Guy pops his head out, the cop draws, fires and puts his gun away calmly. Then decides to see how long he can keep the shoot a secret. But of course it doesn't rise to the level of criminal, according to the DA.
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Dec 11, 2015 15:44
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He was trained to fire twice, so firing once means it was the gun's fault.
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Dec 11, 2015 17:18
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“This shooting is not justified, but also not criminal." Nice to see that police, yet again, have greater leeway in illegal murdering than civilians. Normally if I were to shoot someone unjustifiably, I would be in a prison cell.
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Dec 11, 2015 17:31
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chitoryu12 posted:“This shooting is not justified, but also not criminal." Forgetting for the moment the mental pretzel of logic that justifies even drawing on someone who wrecked his car after running a red light because "he might flee" how in the gently caress is hoping nobody will notice he shot him in the neck not? Telling the EMTs and the hospital "Oh yeah btw he also has a bullet in his neck" is the kind of information that is kind of loving important for the people trying to save him.
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