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Joementum posted:Quote of the morning, "You know how you make America great again? By telling Donald Trump to go to hell." ~ Lindsey Graham
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Dec 8, 2015 14:56
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Dec 8, 2015 15:00
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Grey Fox posted:He's been such a sassy foil the past few months; it's a shame his burns don't get more play since he's in stuck in the basement. It's too little too late, think it'd be better if his ambitions were contained in SC as much as possible.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:17
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I don't think this has been posted here, but Gawker did a interesting teardown of Trump's policy to ban Muslims in the US. Some highlights: quote:In his statement, Trump says: quote:Nevertheless, Trump continues: quote:The organization that commissioned the poll, the Center for Security Policy, has wound in and out of favor in the Republican establishment. In 2011, its founder, Frank Gaffney Jr., was banished from the Conservative Political Action Committee after claiming that two CPAC board members—including Grover Norquist!—were secretly working for the Muslim Brotherhood. quote:In September, the Center for Security Policy put out an ebook called “Cut Down the Black Flag: A Plan to Defeat the Islamic State,” which, according to a National Security Network policy brief on Islamaphobic and anti-refugee politics, cites Wikipedia extensively.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:17
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Grey Fox posted:I don't think this has been posted here, but Gawker did a interesting teardown of Trump's policy to ban Muslims in the US. Some highlights: What are they trying to say, that a large number of Americans don't actually hate and fear Muslims?
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Dec 8, 2015 15:20
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Salt Fish posted:It's hilarious how hard everyone is trying to discredit Trump. Some of the things he is suggesting, like having a list of immigrants and what religion they practice, are things that we are probably already doing. I mean, Americans are fine with the government keeping lists of ever website every citizen views, and keeping the track of every cell phone call ever made but somehow its reprehensible to propose that we track what foreign visitors are doing? 100% guarantee we're already doing that. Keeping a list of websites we've visited is exactly the same as barring all Muslims from entering the country, I guess, if you have an open head wound
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Dec 8, 2015 15:23
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Salt Fish posted:It's hilarious how hard everyone is trying to discredit Trump. Some of the things he is suggesting, like having a list of immigrants and what religion they practice, are things that we are probably already doing. I mean, Americans are fine with the government keeping lists of ever website every citizen views, and keeping the track of every cell phone call ever made but somehow its reprehensible to propose that we track what foreign visitors are doing? 100% guarantee we're already doing that. It's one thing to do it in secret, with vague legality for the purpose of national security, than to do it while stirring up the nation into a frothing mass that advocates ethnic cleansing. We all knew that the CIA does shady poo poo. The NSA has always been Big Brother. Snowden thinks he's some grand whistle blower, but all he did was point at an inconvenient truth about what it takes to run a nation of this size.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:24
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zoux posted:What are they trying to say, that a large number of Americans don't actually hate and fear Muslims?
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Dec 8, 2015 15:24
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Gravel Gravy posted:Hmm, nnnnnope doesn't make up for being Lindsey Graham. true. but at least he knows how hosed up his party has become.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:26
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:it's (supposedly) a poll of american muslims, and how they want to kill you Yeah it's a bullshit poll but Trump's policy proposal isn't based on a good-faith fear of terrorism, it's based on the other polls that say Americans are making GBS threads themselves over Islam right now. If liberals start debating Trump and his supporters regarding whether or not Islam is dangerous, then they've already lost the issue.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:27
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:it's (supposedly) a poll of american muslims, and how they want to kill you It's like if you asked a bunch of people what they thought about the Westboro Baptist Church and then said those opinions were about all Christians. edit: gently caress. I misread the first line. I need coffee. Grey Fox fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Dec 8, 2015 |
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Dec 8, 2015 15:27
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Yeah even Dick loving Cheney disagrees with Trump.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:28
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Salt Fish posted:It's hilarious how hard everyone is trying to discredit Trump. Some of the things he is suggesting, like having a list of immigrants and what religion they practice, are things that we are probably already doing. I mean, Americans are fine with the government keeping lists of ever website every citizen views, and keeping the track of every cell phone call ever made but somehow its reprehensible to propose that we track what foreign visitors are doing? 100% guarantee we're already doing that. I think you'll find that American's don't agree with those things, by and large and that keeping a list of every immigrant AND their religion might not exactly jive with this niggling little thing called the constitution. I mean, even loving Ted Cruz gets it.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:28
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Grey Fox posted:That's the second referenced poll; the first reference is to research that Pew never actually did. If I'm understanding it correctly, it looks like Trump looked at polling data on how people feel about ISIS and then expanded that opinion to fit all Muslims. He's probably referencing this poll from 2014 but there are plenty of polls showing that Islamophobia is widespread among the American public.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:29
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Dapper_Swindler posted:true. but at least he knows how hosed up his party has become. We already know the Republican establishment hates Trump. They don't hate Trump for the same reasons decent people hate Trump, though. The enemy of your enemy is not your friend.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:29
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TheDisreputableDog posted:A democratic president puts Muslim American citizens on a kill list and then blows them up extra-judiciously - "meh" It's a wartime decision the judiciary has no place in the military chain of command.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:30
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Cat Army 
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zoux posted:He's probably referencing this poll from 2014 but there are plenty of polls showing that Islamophobia is widespread among the American public.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:31
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Salt Fish posted:It's hilarious how hard everyone is trying to discredit Trump. Some of the things he is suggesting, like having a list of immigrants and what religion they practice, are things that we are probably already doing. I mean, Americans are fine with the government keeping lists of ever website every citizen views, and keeping the track of every cell phone call ever made but somehow its reprehensible to propose that we track what foreign visitors are doing? 100% guarantee we're already doing that. Actually, we have loads of illegal immigrants who came here through visa overstaying. We don't even know how many people overstay their visas because we don't have the manpower to track every single one of them simultaneously (or wherewithal to chip them all), and it's just a really low priority for USCIS. (We're still almost certainly engaging in targeted surveillance of people who trip alarms but not quite enough to not let them into the country, but that's a no duh.)
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Dec 8, 2015 15:33
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DemeaninDemon posted:Yeah even Dick loving Cheney disagrees with Trump. Counterpoint: Dick Cheney doesn't have a very reputable track record
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Dec 8, 2015 15:33
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When Trump wins can I convert to Islam, sneak into Canada, and apply for protective status? If so, vote for Trump everyone!
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Dec 8, 2015 15:34
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I think you'll find that American's don't agree with those things, by and large and that keeping a list of every immigrant AND their religion might not exactly jive with this niggling little thing called the constitution. yeah, cruz might be a nutjob but he even he knows history ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act ) and that this a bad way to do it.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:36
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Talmonis posted:It's one thing to do it in secret, with vague legality for the purpose of national security, than to do it while stirring up the nation into a frothing mass that advocates ethnic cleansing. We all knew that the CIA does shady poo poo. The NSA has always been Big Brother. Snowden thinks he's some grand whistle blower, but all he did was point at an inconvenient truth about what it takes to run a nation of this size. To elaborate a bit on this (I was phone posting), the American people should absolutely be embarassed by this sort of thing when it comes out into the light. It should repulse you. It's why every decent nation hides it's dirty laundry, rather than wear it like a badge of pride. You don't cheer when the FBI tricks a young radicalized man into trying to commit a terrorist attack with fake bombs, you thank your lucky stars that the idiot didn't get a hold of the real deal. When the NSA has moles in a mosque, you don't parade that poo poo on the news like it's an indictment of all involved, it's awful that it seems nessecary to do that, and embarrassing for the mosque and the patrons who are more than likely just going about their daily lives trying to worship in peace.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:44
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Dick Cheney, like most republicans, was fine with all of this as long as nobody said it in the open.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:44
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Full Battle Rattle posted:Dick Cheney, like most republicans, was fine with all of this as long as nobody said it in the open. To be fair, that's the difference between the United States and Germany, circa 1940's. That openness and tendency to go to extremes and be proud of it, shows a willingness to go way too far.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:47
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I would say this is Pew Research showing some hatred towards Muslims: http://www.pewforum.org/2014/07/16/how-americans-feel-about-religious-groups/
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Dec 8, 2015 15:47
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On the Trump comments, the thing that terrifies me the most (among many, many other things, of course), and should really terrify everyone else the most, is that he's against letting American Muslim citizens outside the country into the United States. Legally speaking, you can do just about whatever the gently caress you want regarding regulating immigration. It's 100% accepted that international borders are pretty much an "anything goes" zone when it comes to most rights. But it's crystal clear that US citizenship allows any US citizen to freely enter and exit the United States, and once you start monkeying with citizenship and its rights, you also start meddling with the most basic components of the rule of law and the Constitution. That isn't just some imaginary slippery slope towards fascism, it is, flat out, fascism. It literally is a principle of fascism. I guess I'm still in disbelief that anyone would go this far, but it was that particular detail that really threw me for a loop. I can get Islamophobia, but just how much of another level this is on clearly hadn't fully sunk in. Fun thought: the chaos that would occur if this actually happened. The protest declarations of conversion by American ex-pats. The USCIS employees who might just stop showing up to work, or ignoring the new rule. The possibility of an emergency stay on the policy by the judiciary. The possibility of an executive-judiciary showdown. None of which will happen because I'd bet a million dollars tomorrow that Trump doesn't take the White House, and while we bleat about how awful he is the GOP will continue to quietly hum happily to itself while controlling Congress and the governorships and the state legislatures. I actually hope Trump takes the nomination, the Dem/"Independent" Dem turnout would be fantastic. Talmonis posted:When the NSA has moles in a mosque, you don't parade that poo poo on the news like it's an indictment of all involved, it's awful that it seems nessecary to do that, and embarrassing for the mosque and the patrons who are more than likely just going about their daily lives trying to worship in peace. Great points, but FYI the NSA doesn't really do human intelligence, the Moles in the Mosque thing is all FBI.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:48
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Talmonis posted:It's one thing to do it in secret, with vague legality for the purpose of national security, than to do it while stirring up the nation into a frothing mass that advocates ethnic cleansing. We all knew that the CIA does shady poo poo. The NSA has always been Big Brother. Snowden thinks he's some grand whistle blower, but all he did was point at an inconvenient truth about what it takes to run a nation of this size. Do we have any evidence that this surveillance is effective, or that it does indeed need to be done to "run a nation of this size"?
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Dec 8, 2015 15:49
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Zelder posted:Keeping a list of websites we've visited is exactly the same as barring all Muslims from entering the country, I guess, if you have an open head wound I don't support excessive untargeted surveillance and I don't support barring immigration. My point is that most republicans and even a great number of democrats do support those things. We had a huge number of politicians come out in support of freezing immigration of Syrian refugees as one example very recently. If you look at what policies are actually supported it seems that Donald Trump is very much moderate except that he is willing to speak his intent. This isn't me justifying his positions, just pointing out the hypocrisy of many of his critics.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:49
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Pohl posted:When Trump wins can I convert to Islam, sneak into Canada, and apply for protective status? If so, vote for Trump everyone! Canada looks very unfavorably on any and all American applications for asylum as part of their Please Don't Turn Us Into America policy, I'm not even sure President Trump would convince them of that.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:50
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Full Battle Rattle posted:Dick Cheney, like most republicans, was fine with all of this as long as nobody said it in the open. They have been pulling this poo poo since at least the sixties and winning elections with it, and to watch it slowly blow up in their stupid smirking faces like this, gives me a kind of satisfaction that I didn't know existed before. The House is safe for now, of course, and they'll probably continue to gobble up governerships and state legislatures since Democrats don't turn out for those. But it's a safe bet the 2020 primaries are going to be no less a poo poo show than what we're seeing now. Kilroy fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Dec 8, 2015 |
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Dec 8, 2015 15:51
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Combed Thunderclap posted:On the Trump comments, the thing that terrifies me the most (among many, many other things, of course), and should really terrify everyone else the most, is that he's against letting American Muslim citizens outside the country into the United States. I cannot stress how much Trump's Muslim ban isn't happening, not even if he were president, so no one should be terrified.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:51
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Combed Thunderclap posted:Actually, we have loads of illegal immigrants who came here through visa overstaying. We don't even know how many people overstay their visas because we don't have the manpower to track every single one of them simultaneously (or wherewithal to chip them all), and it's just a really low priority for USCIS. I'm sorry but it's simply insane to posit that the NSA isn't keeping extra tabs on Muslims who immigrate to the United States from the middleeast. At a very minimum I know for a fact that the full content of their emails and phone calls which are made internationally to their families and friends back home are being recorded by the NSA. edit: which is not to say that you are making that claim, but to address it in general to this thread.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:52
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Salt Fish posted:At a very minimum I know for a fact that the full content of their emails and phone calls which are made internationally to their families and friends back home are being recorded by the NSA.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:55
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zoux posted:I cannot stress how much Trump's Muslim ban isn't happening, not even if he were president, so no one should be terrified. Unless you're a Muslim American or foreign citizen living in the US. Not so much from the politicians so much, but from the voters that decide that these viewpoints are a legitimate.
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Dec 8, 2015 15:58
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Gravel Gravy posted:Unless you're a Muslim American or foreign citizen living in the US. Oh yeah for sure, Islamophobia is real, strong and not our friend. But to treat this Trump thing as anything but the basest pandering, well. Besides, it's our fault anyway. 
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Dec 8, 2015 15:59
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Radbot posted:Do we have any evidence that this surveillance is effective, or that it does indeed need to be done to "run a nation of this size"? I mean, if we did it would likely be classified. Though we do have the examples of the FBI stings working to thwart the stupid home grown radicalized folks. Oh, and the downfall of the KKK. Kilroy posted:All international calls and emails are being recorded, so that doesn't qualify as "extra" tabs. It's just tabs, just like everyone else. God bless the panopticon. 
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Dec 8, 2015 15:59
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I was calling Dick Cheney what he is: the Dark Lord.
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Dec 8, 2015 16:00
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Talmonis posted:I mean, if we did it would likely be classified. Though we do have the examples of the FBI stings working to thwart the stupid home grown radicalized folks. Oh, and the downfall of the KKK. Has there been any evidence the FBI has foiled one plot that they themselves didn't plan and fund?
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Dec 8, 2015 16:02
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Talmonis posted:I mean, if we did it would likely be classified. Though we do have the examples of the FBI stings working to thwart the stupid home grown radicalized folks. Oh, and the downfall of the KKK. So what's the smug "gotta break some eggs to make an omelette" attitude about? I fail to see how "maybe one time it worked" rises to the level of "inconvenient truth".
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Dec 8, 2015 16:02
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zoux posted:I cannot stress how much Trump's Muslim ban isn't happening, not even if he were president, so no one should be terrified. Absolutely. The only reason I didn't make my entire post the caveat that This Will Never Happen is because the terror really is a natural reaction to this kind of rhetoric, and it's arguably necessary to trigger the social immune response that will clear out this particular infection.
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Dec 8, 2015 16:03
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