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Does my colorless creature tap for ◇ ? Colorless isn't a color, so that's not specified as it is today. Do my non-colorless (sounds better than colored) creatures tap for my choice of ◇ or their respective mana ? If so, the flavor of casting a convoke spell with a ◇ cost is lost if I can use my red and blue dudes to cast it. StrugglingHoneybun fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Dec 8, 2015 |
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Dec 8, 2015 21:51
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So you just answered your own question, right? What's the problem. edit: Sorry, that sounds a bit aggressively worded, doesn't it? But yeah, you read the text and then it clears it up, right?
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Dec 8, 2015 21:52
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End of Life Guy posted:Does my colorless creature tap for ◇ ? Yes, it does. A green creature taps for G, and a colourless creature taps for ◇, and you can use either of those to pay the 1 in a cost. You can only use G to pay G, and you can only use ◇ to pay ◇. Edit: To clarify, you tap the creature to pay for the spell, the creature doesn't actually create mana. So you can tap a blue-red creature to pay 1 or U or R, but not ◇.
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Dec 8, 2015 21:54
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That's a thing that doesn't belong in the reminder text because it cannot possibly matter whether it works that way or not. e:The only way it could matter is if OGW has a "spells cost D more" effect that affects your convoke spell, and then only in the conjunction of those two effects does it matter. Dr. Stab fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Dec 8, 2015 |
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Dec 8, 2015 21:54
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You can tap e.g. a green creature to pay for either the green-colored or generic mana component of a convoke spell's cost, which is exactly what the reminder text says. The only thing that will need a bit more clarification is if we ever see a convoke card with diamond symbols in its mana cost, because then you could (I assume) use any colorless creature to convoke the diamond cost, but that might not be immediately apparent. To be clear, I mean it's not apparent solely from the existing convoke rules whether a colorless creature can tap for diamond, since it's not tapping for its "color" (because it doesn't have one). It would be most intuitive for colorless to tap for diamond mana and I assume that's what they'll go with, but it does need clarification.
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Dec 8, 2015 21:55
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PhyrexianLibrarian posted:Yes, it does. A green creature taps for G, and a colourless creature taps for ◇, and you can use either of those to pay the 1 in a cost. You can only use G to pay G, and you can only use ◇ to pay ◇. Heh, I guess I'm eating my words about this being simple, because... no, right? quote:For each colored mana in this spell’s total cost, you may tap an untapped creature of that color you control rather than pay that mana. For each generic mana in this spell’s total cost, you may tap an untapped creature you control rather than pay that mana. As written you just can't pay ◇ with convoke, right? And that's fine and seems pretty apparent to me, but whatever. (they'll probably change it?)
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Dec 8, 2015 21:56
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PhyrexianLibrarian posted:Yes, it does. A green creature taps for G, and a colourless creature taps for ◇, and you can use either of those to pay the 1 in a cost. You can only use G to pay G, and you can only use ◇ to pay ◇. Colorless is not a color. Colorless is the absence of color. This is up there with "Wastes is real, but other basics should tap for ◇ as well as their colors too, to make it easier for new players!" as far as misunderstandings go. odiv posted:As written you just can't pay ◇ with convoke, right? And that's fine and seems pretty apparent to me, but whatever. Yeah, as written, Convoke produces a Colored Mana or a Generic Mana. It's probably fixable, but I don't know if it's actually worth fixing.
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Dec 8, 2015 21:57
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So, do Wastes only tap for DIAMOND mana? They doesn't tap for what we call "colorless" (2)BB right? For that you still need BB and 2 of any land except Wastes?
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Dec 8, 2015 22:13
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Lieutenant Centaur posted:So, do Wastes only tap for DIAMOND mana? They doesn't tap for what we call "colorless" (2)BB right? For that you still need BB and 2 of any land except Wastes? what you're calling "colorless" mana is actually generic mana, which means any mana type can be used for it
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Dec 8, 2015 22:15
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Lieutenant Centaur posted:So, do Wastes only tap for DIAMOND mana? They doesn't tap for what we call "colorless" (2)BB right? For that you still need BB and 2 of any land except Wastes? Generic Mana is mana of any color or colorless mana. All colorless mana generators will continue to produce colorless mana as they currently do - there is no mana source which produces Generic Mana.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:16
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Lieutenant Centaur posted:So, do Wastes only tap for DIAMOND mana? They doesn't tap for what we call "colorless" (2)BB right? For that you still need BB and 2 of any land except Wastes? No, the diamond means colorless. The (2) is generic which means "any type of mana." Edit: Wow, you guys are fast.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:17
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Niton posted:there is no mana source which produces Generic Mana.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:18
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There should be a mana leak that requires <><>/<> to be paid. Because tron is cool and good.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:19
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Niton posted:there is no mana source which produces Generic Mana. Until Return to Tarkir in 2021. What about cards that say "You may spend mana as though it were mana of any color" ? Let's say I exile a new Kozilek with Daxos, of Meletis. Do you think I could cast it with only green mana? I've no opinion on this one, just making conversation.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:20
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End of Life Guy posted:Let's say I exile a new Kozilek with Daxos, of Meletis. Do you think I could cast it with only green mana? I don't think you would be able to - one of Daxos' rulings is: quote:9/15/2013: You must pay all costs to cast the exiled card. You may pay alternative or additional costs. If the card has any mandatory additional costs, you must pay those. Daxos allows you to spend all mana as White, Blue, Black, Red or Green mana, but doesn't allow you to ignore any other mana costs that might be associated with the card, which (assumedly) Colorless mana counts as.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:22
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Some Numbers posted:No, the diamond means colorless. The (2) is generic which means "any type of mana." Are we assuming that the Wastes also produce generic mana? If so, then do when what is their point at all?
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Dec 8, 2015 22:23
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Lieutenant Centaur posted:So, do Wastes only tap for DIAMOND mana? They doesn't tap for what we call "colorless" (2)BB right? For that you still need BB and 2 of any land except Wastes? the 2 in 2BB can be paid by any kind of mana, colored or colorless. You can Pay GGBB ♦♦BB G♦BB and so on and so on. The whole idea is producing mana and paying mana are not the same. The 2 doesn't exclude any payment currently, you can pay it with WUBRG or Colorless mana, why would we exclude colorless mana after we give it a symbol?
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Dec 8, 2015 22:24
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Lieutenant Centaur posted:Are we assuming that the Wastes also produce generic mana? If so, then do when what is their point at all? What is generic mana in terms of producing mana.? Can you explain an example of mana source in the game that now produces generic? Keeping in mind that sources like Tron Lands, Sol Ring are not producing generic, they are producing colorless.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:25
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Lieutenant Centaur posted:Are we assuming that the Wastes also produce generic mana? If so, then do when what is their point at all? There is no actual gameplay mechanic called Generic Mana. Nothing can tap for Generic Mana, nor can Generic Mana be added to your mana pool through a card's effect. Generic Mana is a simply a rules term which means Mana from any mana-producing source which can legally be used to pay for this spell or ability.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:25
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Niton posted:I don't think you would be able to - one of Daxos' rulings is: So casting Kozilek would cost 8 mana of any color, and then two colorless, if cast with Daxos?
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Dec 8, 2015 22:26
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The difference between generic and colorless is not in production, but in cost. Generic= any color of mana or colorless mana. Colorless= Only colorless, not any other color.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:26
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Man. This concept is breaking people's minds. Have they even said if this is going to be a recurring feature yet?
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Dec 8, 2015 22:28
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sarmhan posted:The difference between generic and colorless is not in production, but in cost. Generic= any color of mana or colorless mana. Colorless= Only colorless, not any other color. It is really interesting to see how many people don't distinguish between T: Add (1) to your mana pool and a mana cost of (1)G. They know you can't pay G with the (1) you make, they know you can pay the (1) with the (1) they produce, they know they can pay for a spell that costs (1)G with RG but they lose their minds when you say we gave colorless mana a symbol.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:28
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Thor-Stryker posted:Man. This concept is breaking people's minds. Have they even said if this is going to be a recurring feature yet? It isn't official, but enough of the leaks look legit. We're all just waiting for some official spoiler to confirm.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:29
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jassi007 posted:What is generic mana in terms of producing mana.? Can you explain an example of mana source in the game that now produces generic? Keeping in mind that sources like Tron Lands, Sol Ring are not producing generic, they are producing colorless. No, I can't give you an example. Maybe I'm stupid and don't understand it like some others. For example if I want to cast Kozilek, Butcher of Truth I need to pay (10) which can be UUUUUWWWWW or any combination of the 5 color lands that are available now. If I want to cast Oath Kozileik I need (8) and DIAMOND/DIAMOND. I still need 10, so what's the point of introducing the new Wastes? What's the benefit or even the point?
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Dec 8, 2015 22:32
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Gensuki posted:So casting Kozilek would cost 8 mana of any color, and then two colorless, if cast with Daxos? I believe so - Kozilek's mana cost says "two mana must be colorless", so I think it would be similar to how you can only use basic lands to cast Imperiosaur off of Daxos. Lieutenant Centaur posted:
Wastes are a basic source of Colorless mana - this allows them to be fetched by cards like Evolving Wilds, Cultivate, or Pilgrim's Eye, and it allows you to have any number of them in a constructed deck. This is important because it allows you to treat Colorless as a pseudo-color for balance reasons, rather than a curiosity - it would be very difficult to construct (for example) a Colorless/Green deck if you had to rely entirely on nonbasic lands for fixing. Niton fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Dec 8, 2015 |
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Dec 8, 2015 22:32
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Niton posted:I believe so - Kozilek's mana cost says "two mana must be colorless", so I think it would be similar to how you can only use basic lands to cast Imperiosaur off of Daxos. The more I understand it seems like a stupid mechanic to cater to the EDH crowd so they can have a true colorless manabase so they don't have to use dumb poo poo like Desert, Quickstand etc etc. They can just run 35 Wastes and be done with it.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:37
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Lieutenant Centaur posted:No, I can't give you an example. Maybe I'm stupid and don't understand it like some others. You need to pay 10, 2 of which must be colorless. Same as if it cost 8BB. You'd need to pay 10, two of which much be black. e: You can't pay for new Kozilek with UUUUUWWWWW, while you can do that with old Kozilek. Dr. Stab fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Dec 8, 2015 |
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Dec 8, 2015 22:37
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If colorless costs stick around for more than a set, or are good enough to see significant play, it'll be interesting that all of a sudden a whole bunch of old dual lands are now trilands.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:38
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You can cast O.G Kozilek for any combination of mana, as long as it adds up to ten. You *must* use 2 colorless mana to cast New Kozilek. Diamond functions like a mana symbol, except it denotes colorless mana. There is no such thing as 'generic mana' when it comes to production, only the 5 colors and colorless. Generic is just a cost notation that tells you any type of mana can be used.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:38
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Lieutenant Centaur posted:The more I understand it seems like a stupid mechanic to cater to the EDH crowd so they can have a true colorless manabase so they don't have to use dumb poo poo like Desert, Quickstand etc etc. They can just run 35 Wastes and be done with it. Colorless can never be balanced in Limited without some method of fixing for it. Having a Colorless equivalent to fetch off of Evolving Wilds is an important part of making it interesting in limited. cheetah7071 posted:If colorless costs stick around for more than a set, or are good enough to see significant play, it'll be interesting that all of a sudden a whole bunch of old dual lands are now trilands. And, importantly, the ones which are now trilands are (aside from Grove of the Burnwillows and Twilight Mire) not really anyone's first choice currently.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:39
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Lieutenant Centaur posted:No, I can't give you an example. Maybe I'm stupid and don't understand it like some others. Think about it this way. If you want to cast, say, Ob Nixilis, you need 3BB. That's two black and three of anything. New Kozilek is 8♦♦. That means you need two colorless mana (from Wastes or a painland or something) and 8 of anything. The point is taking colorless from a thing for artifacts and actually making it matter is a way that impacts the game as a whole.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:39
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What's really gonna blow people's minds is when 2/<> becomes an optional cost. I guess if you can't wrap your heads around this concept magic just isn't the game for you 
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Dec 8, 2015 22:40
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sarmhan posted:You can cast O.G Kozilek for any combination of mana, as long as it adds up to ten. It's starting to become clear now. So you can use 10 Wastes if you desire to cast New Kozy.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:41
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Lieutenant Centaur posted:It's starting to become clear now. So you can use 10 Wastes if you desire to cast New Kozy. Right, or two Wastes, four islands and four plains.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:41
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Some Numbers posted:Right, or two Wastes, four islands and four plains. Or five wastes, one Plains, one island, one mountain, one forest, and one swamp. It's easiest to think of diamonds as a sixth color, IMO
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Dec 8, 2015 22:46
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It's still really stupid and hopefully it's a set only thing. (It won't be)
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Dec 8, 2015 22:48
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CaptCommy posted:Or five wastes, one Plains, one island, one mountain, one forest, and one swamp. It's easiest to think of diamonds as a sixth color, IMO This could become treacherous when thinking about Converge and Sunburst, depending on how it is implemented.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:50
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^^^^^: It's not a color!Lieutenant Centaur posted:It's still really stupid and hopefully it's a set only thing. (It won't be) They would not print a new basic land and errata a bunch of cards just for a few cards in a small set. If ♦ is legit, it's going to be a part of the game. Serious question: why do you think it's stupid?
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Dec 8, 2015 22:51
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somebody please go grab https://www.iscolorlessacolor.com and make the page text just NO in 152pt font
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