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Nate RFB posted:Yeah the real bummer about PWvsL is how bad the final case is. Not every final case in the AA series is amazing but they're usually at least somewhat memorable; having one that's so straight up bad in PWvsL just sours the whole experience no matter how good or bad (mostly bad) the rest of the game was. I liked the music, I guess? Honestly, the high point of the game was Layton getting Goldfinger'd and Maya taking a lava bath. Everything after that was just "okay, lets walk back this exciting and unexpected development into something boring and mundane". gently caress that, they should have doubled down on the crazy train. The quality nosedives off a cliff the minute Layton returns, sad to say. And it started out so strong too. That first testimony where you point out the lantern and go "that had to be the murder weapon, because MAGIC DOESN'T EXIST" and everyone including your client goes "Uhhh yes it does, what else can turn a man from 0 to kindling in less than a second? Unless he was dunked in oil, which he clearly wasn't" was a great scene. It unequivocally says "magic is real, and you're going to have to learn the rules on the fly".
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Dec 9, 2015 03:15
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I also like the part where Phoenix points out a contradiction using logic and everyone's like "WHAT THE gently caress WAS THAT"
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Dec 9, 2015 03:17
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The magic being real would've made the game 100 times better.
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Dec 9, 2015 03:51
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Vengarr posted:Honestly, the high point of the game was Layton getting Goldfinger'd and Maya taking a lava bath. Everything after that was just "okay, lets walk back this exciting and unexpected development into something boring and mundane". gently caress that, they should have doubled down on the crazy train. It would be nice if the next AA played more with the silently swept under the rug Juror system, and in one or two cases you really had to play with a Jury made up entirely of people who absolutely believe aliens abduct cows or whatever.
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Dec 9, 2015 04:16
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Jsor posted:It really would be nice if the next AA played more with the silently swept under the rug Juror system, and in one or two cases you really had to play with a Jury made up entirely of people who absolutely believe aliens abduct cows or whatever. Dai Gyakuten has a jury system. Naturally we don't get the game.
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Dec 9, 2015 04:17
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:The magic being real would've made the game 100 times better.
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Dec 9, 2015 05:37
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Vengarr posted:The quality nosedives off a cliff the minute Layton returns, sad to say. And it started out so strong too. That first testimony where you point out the lantern and go "that had to be the murder weapon, because MAGIC DOESN'T EXIST" , says Phoenix Wright, with his spirit medium assistants, psychoanalysis necklace, and kids who can tell when people are lying with their bracelets.
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Dec 9, 2015 05:43
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:The magic being real would've made the game 100 times better. I'd play an AA-style game where magic is actually real and has it's own rules and you defend criminals/solve cases by knowledge of what spells are used/should have been used.
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Dec 9, 2015 05:44
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Funky Valentine posted:, says Phoenix Wright, with his spirit medium assistants, psychoanalysis necklace, and kids who can tell when people are lying with their bracelets. He didn't have any of his kids at that point. 
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Dec 9, 2015 05:44
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Regarding case 2 of Dual Destinies: did anyone else legitimately think Tenma Taro might've been possessing Mayor Tenma? It confused the poo poo out of me, because I wasn't sure whether to believe it or not given this is a series where the souls of the dead have been channeled multiple times.
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Dec 9, 2015 05:46
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I think there's an implicit rule in Ace Attorney that supernatural powers can't be invoked as the solution to an actual mystery, because that sortof defeats the purpose. The only exception to this involved powers whose parameters had been carefully established over the course of three games.
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Dec 9, 2015 05:52
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I mean maybe supernatural powers LITERALLY aren't used as a solution but there are several times when the final solution is given by Mia flashing the words to Nick, deus ex machina style
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Dec 9, 2015 06:08
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Quest For Glory II posted:I mean maybe supernatural powers LITERALLY aren't used as a solution but there are several times when the final solution is given by Mia flashing the words to Nick, deus ex machina style I thought that only happened in 1-4?
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Dec 9, 2015 06:16
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You generally have to come to the answer yourself, and you could also argue it's really just Mia using mundane logic or observation to help you in most cases, even if she's summoned by magic. 2-4 uses it as a plot point but again it's all out in the open, not something you have to deduce.
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Dec 9, 2015 06:20
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Folt The Bolt posted:I'd play an AA-style game where magic is actually real and has it's own rules and you defend criminals/solve cases by knowledge of what spells are used/should have been used. In other words, Phoenix Wright vs. Professor Layton had they actually committed to their core concept.
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Dec 9, 2015 07:18
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Vengarr posted:In other words, Phoenix Wright vs. Professor Layton had they actually committed to their core concept. It's doubly lame since it'd be neat from a Layton perspective to be thrown into a situation where, no, there's no wacky trick behind the nonsense this time.
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Dec 9, 2015 07:40
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Pureauthor posted:Dai Gyakuten has a jury system. 
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Dec 9, 2015 07:41
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:The magic being real would've made the game 100 times better. Yup. It wasted the tone it established so well.
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Dec 9, 2015 10:05
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:The magic being real would've made the game 100 times better. I was stubbornly holding on to this for most of the game and was sorely disappointed, even though my experience with Layton should've prepared me for bullshit twists. Blame the cutscene where Phoenix and Maya get sucked into the book  I even had a theory going that Espella's cat Eve was actually Darklaw using shapeshifting magic!
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Dec 9, 2015 11:41
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VibrantPareidolia posted:I even had a theory going that Espella's cat Eve was actually Darklaw using shapeshifting magic! Not going to lie, I thought that's what they were going for with that, too.
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Dec 9, 2015 12:12
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:Not going to lie, I thought that's what they were going for with that, too. For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure it was a deliberate red herring
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Dec 9, 2015 12:21
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:Not going to lie, I thought that's what they were going for with that, too. Me too. It was a very well designed red herring.
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Dec 9, 2015 12:33
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Yup. Fooled me as well. Especially when she vanishes and Eve strolls just after. Anyway, I know why the ending pisses me off while the Layton games endings doesn't: It's more circumvoluted and reliant on gross negligence and coincidences. I can get behind the village being populated by robots or Futur London being a sham because somehow it has less loops to jump into just to work than Labyrinthia. And well, dark storybook ambience that get utterly demolished
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Dec 9, 2015 13:49
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think there's an implicit rule in Ace Attorney that supernatural powers can't be invoked as the solution to an actual mystery, because that sortof defeats the purpose. The only exception to this involved powers whose parameters had been carefully established over the course of three games.
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Dec 9, 2015 13:57
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The secret of PW vs Layton was perfect; the reveal of it was less so--they should have made it so that instead of the Storyteller delivering a massive infodump, Nick would slowly figure the whole thing out over the course of the cross-examinations, as he normally does. The final trial was missing the segment where Nick makes this shocked face and internally monologues "no... it couldn't be... THAT???"
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Dec 9, 2015 14:16
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The dumbest Mia ex machina in the series was in 1-2 where she told you to flip the receipt over. 
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Dec 9, 2015 14:22
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Chieves posted:The dumbest Mia ex machina in the series was in 1-2 where she told you to flip the receipt over.
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Dec 9, 2015 14:26
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Nate RFB posted:Yeah I hated that. Really when I look back on the first game I kind of scratch my head, the first case is the most tutorial of all first cases in the franchise, the second case has a real lovely ending, the 3rd is decent I suppose, and the 4th while ending great has some dumb stuff (the initial culprit just sort of gives up for no reason, losing points on pressing, and having to actually get a game over to proceed). I remember when I played it for the first time the only case I thought was a start-to-finish slam dunk was the added 5th case. Knowing the first Ace Attorney was originally just the first 4 cases, getting that version would've been a little disappointing to me honestly. And then if you want to get technical, the next 3 cases (2-1, 2-2, 2-3) are also not good! Even though I actually kind of like 2-2, I recognize it is bad.
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Dec 9, 2015 16:41
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Volt Catfish posted:Knowing the first Ace Attorney was originally just the first 4 cases, getting that version would've been a little disappointing to me honestly. Uh, 2-2 introduced Pearl, the hell do you mean. Even if I like 2-3, that whole thing with the flying statue is undefendable though, plus I guess if you're not playing the 3DS trilogy Moe's gimmick is far less endearing. Franziska is a really fun protagonist (not character) though, since she's the only one who spends all of her cases pressuring you well past the point where Godot, Klavier, or Blackquill would just kick their legs back or even help you get a Not Guilty.
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Dec 9, 2015 18:12
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Last Celebration posted:Franziska is a really fun protagonist (not character) though, since she's the only one who spends all of her cases pressuring you well past the point where Godot, Klavier, or Blackquill would just kick their legs back or even help you get a Not Guilty.
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Dec 9, 2015 18:14
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Wait, what did the 3DS trilogy do to Moe's gimmick?
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Dec 9, 2015 18:16
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I think it's more that the 3DS version lets you skip text you haven't already seen.
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Dec 9, 2015 18:17
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franziska rules i've also never actually played 1-5 past the opening because my save got corrupted or something like that
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Dec 9, 2015 18:26
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Davincie posted:franziska rules Honestly, the last part of the final trial is probably my high point of the series. Phoenix isn't just lucky, he's clever as hell and taking down the villain feels so earned.
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Dec 9, 2015 18:38
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Clever Phoenix is always good
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Dec 9, 2015 19:11
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1-4 was really good. For all the faults it has it established all the final case bullshit we've come to know and loveNate RFB posted:Basically the same sort of thing that Umineko did I suppose.
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Dec 9, 2015 19:30
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Irony Be My Shield posted:1-4 was really good. For all the faults it has it established all the final case bullshit we've come to know and love Also the discovery that the only force more powerful than Von Karma's perfection complex is, in fact, Larry Butz.
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Dec 9, 2015 19:37
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I found an old list of gripes I had about Professor Layton vs. Phoenix Wright that I posted somewhere else (not Reddit, I swear). Man, I loved hating and theorizing about that game. Spoilered in bits & pieces for readability. Espella wanders into the lives of Professor Layton and Luke, bringing them absolutely nothing but misfortune for nearly the entire game. For reasons that were never made clear to me aside from "cute little girls always get the benefit of the doubt," they continue to defend/support her even though bad things happen wherever she goes and she herself admits that she is the cause of those bad things. She turns out not to be the evil witch who's ruining the townspeoples' lives, but no one actually knows this for sure until the very very very end of the game. The gang has no reason to believe that Espella is good, but they relentlessly stand by her even after she is linked to several people's deaths. A few times, Luke and Maya something like, "She just CAN'T be an evil witch! She's too nice!" Like, uh...she got you sucked into another dimension through a book and the entire town distrusts her, but she can't be evil? Uh... Labyrinthia has a witch problem, to the point that they have witch trials and drop people into flaming pits for witchcraft. Why, then, does the entire town seem to accept without hesitation that Luke can talk to and understand the speech of animals? Granted, in this canon, only female people can be witches, but there's a trial in which a witness who was thought to be male turned out to be a witch living in hiding. Luke is young enough to be similarly androgynous, but no one suspects a thing. Okay then. Professor Layton is turned into a gold statue by witches, and Maya accidentally is dropped into the pit of fire after being cleared of witchcraft. Later on (but not that much later), the two meet up in the forest and are accosted by the Great Witch & some strange creatures known as Shades. This led me to believe that Layton and Maya had died and were in purgatory (not that farfetched considering that the ghost of Maya's older sister Mia was a prominent character in at least one Phoenix Wright game), and that Labyrinthia was either heaven or hell. That would have been WAY too interesting.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:14
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Believing in your super suspicious seeming client is the foundation of this series though
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Dec 9, 2015 22:21
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Especially when they and everyone around them is convinced of their guilt.
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Dec 9, 2015 22:23
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