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Maxwell Lord posted:You are literally making up bad stories you think Moffat will write to prove your point that he's a bad writer. Because pretending would be bad but a more convoluted less believable reason would be better? Ok, sure. Just don't say you weren't warned. Also I didn't say he was a bad writer, he's just lazy and he can do better, because we've seen it.
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Dec 9, 2015 10:43
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Crosspeice posted:The Daleks (yeesh, spelunking and dalek politics are pretty bad) The spelunking stuff is pretty poorly paced, and watching Ian poo poo on the idea of pacifism is very much a sign of the times it was made. The actual Daleks themselves are incredible though, I still get a chill watching them. Have you seen The Dalek Invasion of Earth? It's very highly regarded and I think holds up excellently. Cerv posted:The run through of the loop we see in Heaven Sent was very clear that was not the first, and that the Doctor had no memory of the previous thousands of loops. He does make a comment after realizing what is happening, when begging "Clara" to give him permission to give up, where he says that he remembers "how it feels". So not so much,"I remember all my previous iterations" so much as,"I recall the agony of remembering and the pain of death and I know I (through each iteration) will have to experience that cumulatively billions of more times if I don't give up" - at least that's how I took it. But he DOES do it. Because he's one hell of a bird 
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Dec 9, 2015 10:57
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Saying "I love having adventures!" at the start of each episode doesn't make her the Doctor's equal. Lottery of Babylon posted:"Gonna spend the next hour getting owned relentlessly by the Master, wow I'm just like the Doctor!" quote:"I know, this time I'll actually try to do something Doctor-ish!" *commits suicide* quote:"Oops, stuck in the wrong time zone for this entire episode. Guess I'd better sit here and wait for the Doctor to fix everything. We're equals btw" Attitude Indicator posted:Also using Pynchon and Lynch to disprove the point is a bit off, since they are considered outsider masters of their crafts. rules don't apply to Lord Lynch & Pynch, man! There's a pretty strong argument that rules don't apply to Moffat in TV writing in general, but the idea that he needs handbook tips to write Doctor Who, a category of writing which he's had more success in writing than anyone else alive, is bizarre.
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Dec 9, 2015 11:51
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I came across this bit of text about the General's regeneration in Hell Bent being transphobic:quote:I meant to add there was enough plausible deniability for Moffat to step back and say 'I'm just adding to canon lore here', and hey I guess it worked. But for me the whole "craggy white dude gets a big reveal moment when he's... Now a young black woman!" Ta da, 'sorry, ma'am' line and all reeked of Moffat smirking at the criticism he's reviewed over race/gender in regeneration. Like oh here's your sop, I'll make him a black woman won't that be cute? I'm really struggling to see exactly how it's transphobic, exactly. This was written by a white, cis, straight male., so I'm not sure he can be an arbiter of what is/isn't.
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Dec 9, 2015 12:15
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josh04 posted:There's a pretty strong argument that rules don't apply to Moffat in TV writing in general, but the idea that he needs handbook tips to write Doctor Who, a category of writing which he's had more success in writing than anyone else alive, is bizarre. Moffat has written some really good episodes, yes. That doesn't mean he's flawless and above criticism.
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Dec 9, 2015 12:25
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The_Doctor posted:I came across this bit of text about the General's regeneration in Hell Bent being transphobic: That scene was pretty ham fisted (in that it didn't need the snark from the post regeneration General) but I think you have to tie yourself in knots to interpret it as transphobic.
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Dec 9, 2015 12:33
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Jerusalem posted:The spelunking stuff is pretty poorly paced, and watching Ian poo poo on the idea of pacifism is very much a sign of the times it was made. The show making GBS threads on pacifism was great, one of the best parts of the episode, second only to them exploring the alien landscape in the first episode and any bit of Dalek society/Daleks interacting with eachother. But then I think we've had this exact argument before in either this or another Who thread.
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Dec 9, 2015 12:43
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The_Doctor posted:I'm really struggling to see exactly how it's transphobic, exactly. This was written by a white, cis, straight male., so I'm not sure he can be an arbiter of what is/isn't. CIS? I took it as nothing more than the type of comedy you’d hear in a sitcom-type setting.
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Dec 9, 2015 12:50
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CobiWann posted:CIS? Cisgender
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Dec 9, 2015 12:57
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I liked that the line implied that the General's past regenerations had all been female and that her 10th regeneration had been the only male one.
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Dec 9, 2015 12:59
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The scene's not that bad to me, even if it doesn't do things as smoothly as it could. It's got the same problem as a few other instances with Moffat; he's sort of institutionally discriminatory, mostly towards women, but he doesn't mean to be and he genuinely seems to try not to be. They're just sort of well-meaning missteps by someone who's a little bit further behind the times than he wants to be.
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Dec 9, 2015 13:01
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Emerson Cod posted:I liked that the line implied that the General's past regenerations had all been female and that her 10th regeneration had been the only male one. That wasn't implied as much as outright stated
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Dec 9, 2015 13:03
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…this is a thing now? Wow. I feel like I’m becoming the old man who yells at a cloud.
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Dec 9, 2015 13:17
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Rhyno posted:There's still a large group who refuses to believe that Missy is really the Master since we saw no on screen regeneration. Well, heck, we never saw a single frame of Christopher Eccleston's face when John Hurt supposedly regenerated into him, so obviously there's a second missing, secret regeneration between War and Nine which not even the Doctor knows about.
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Dec 9, 2015 13:18
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CobiWann posted:…this is a thing now? It's a term that's started being used over the last few years. Personally I've got no issue with it, since it's the sort of thing that you're going to need a neutral term for in certain discussions.
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Dec 9, 2015 13:22
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RunAndGun posted:True, but that Rory was the same Rory for the entire 2000 year span. There was no continuity break, unlike the Transporter Copies... True, but plastic Rory wasn't really Rory at all. At no point did a real live Rory interact with plastic Rory. Plastic Rory was an Auton with delusions of Rory-ness.
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Dec 9, 2015 13:45
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Cleretic posted:It's a term that's started being used over the last few years. Personally I've got no issue with it, since it's the sort of thing that you're going to need a neutral term for in certain discussions. Basically, because any rationale to categorise something as 'normal' by default weakens the other positions as abnormal.
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Dec 9, 2015 13:45
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The_Doctor posted:Basically, because any rationale to categorise something as 'normal' by default weakens the other positions as abnormal. On one hand, it’s good to have a term like this. I’m a believer in “better to talk about things than shove them under the rug and pray they go away.” "Neutral" rather than "normal" works well in this regard. On the other hand, it’s weird to consider yourself somewhat socially progressive (again, I’m the worst modern-day Republican ever) and come across a new term for a topic. On the third hand, it’s really weird to have a conversation like this come up because of a throwaway comedic line in the middle of a dramatically heavy episode. With obvious heavy handed exceptions (The Happiness Patrol) I never looked too deeply at politics or social discussions within the show.
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Dec 9, 2015 13:51
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Cerv posted:The run through of the loop we see in Heaven Sent was very clear that was not the first, and that the Doctor had no memory of the previous thousands of loops. He said he thought he was forgetting something, and then when he sees the diamond wall he remembers "bird" and it all falls into place: DOCTOR: That's when I remember! Always then. Always then. Always exactly then! I can't keep doing this, Clara! I can't! Why is it always me? Why is it never anybody else's turn? BLACKBOARD: How are you going to win?? DOCTOR: Can't I just lose? Just this once? Easy. It would be easy. It would be so easy. Just tell them. Just tell them, whoever wants to know, all about the Hybrid. I can't keep doing this. I can't! I can't always do this! It's not fair! Clara, it's just not fair! Why can't I just lose? BLACKBOARD: No! DOCTOR: But I can remember, Clara.You don't understand, I can remember it all. Every time. And you'll still be gone. Whatever I do, you still won't be there.
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Dec 9, 2015 13:59
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qntm posted:Well, heck, we never saw a single frame of Christopher Eccleston's face when John Hurt supposedly regenerated into him, so obviously there's a second missing, secret regeneration between War and Nine which not even the Doctor knows about. Yes we did?
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Dec 9, 2015 14:35
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Cliff Racer posted:Be warned, the animated reconstruction of Reign of Terror is.... not good. It's distractingly bad. The Invasion's animated bits weren't great, but at least they kept the style the show had at the time.
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Dec 9, 2015 15:09
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Rhyno posted:Stupid dorks! If Guy Gardner can be a woman ANYONE can. I know you're talking about your avatar, but the current version of this incident is... not good, to be honest. Giffen and JMdM are trying to backpedal and fix it, but god did they start off with some ham-fisted jokes that were, at best, sexist, and at worst transphobic AND sexist.
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Dec 9, 2015 16:21
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2house2fly posted:He said he thought he was forgetting something, and then when he sees the diamond wall he remembers "bird" and it all falls into place: This bit in Hell Bent is especially telling: DOCTOR: Well, I can't be the Doctor all the time. I think I've almost got it. I think this is it. CLARA: Tell me what they did to you. Tell me, what happened to the Doctor? The Time Lords snap the Doctor's sanity in half just to get a confession out of him. They abuse him horribly until he is forced to completely dissociate himself from the Doctor persona. That only makes sense if he actually remembers every moment of his torture.
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Dec 9, 2015 16:51
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Mind Loving Owl posted:Anyway, why exactly was the Sisterhood of Karn there at all? And am I the only one confused by why a race of time travellers would be into prophecies? I think part of it was to bookend this series with her. I can't remember if she was in the first episode, but she was definitely in the prologue to the first ep: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-fFyrxbSes (if this in blocked in your country let me know and I'll try and re-upload it somewhere, it kinda fills in quite a few plot gaps) She's also a great actress, and that's never a bad thing. anastazius fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 17:04
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2house2fly posted:He said he thought he was forgetting something, and then when he sees the diamond wall he remembers "bird" and it all falls into place: This line is especially interesting. Out of context, "I can remember it all. Every time." sounds pretty definitive. But it's juxtaposed against "You don't understand." Who, precisely, doesn't understand? "Clara" is a figment, onto which he's projecting (part of) himself. Is he saying a part of himself doesn't only resist the conclusion (it clearly does) but also doesn't even understand the argument? More broadly, the whole scene is occurring in an imaginary TARDIS, with an imaginary companion. While the line sounds pretty definitive on its own, it's contextualized in a lot of fantasy, ambiguity and metaphor. It's quite reasonable to interpret "remembering" as metaphorical, too -- as him abruptly realizing what's going on (including the hysteresis, hence "always then" and "every time"), and being hit with the enormity of what he's already sacrificed, and what he's already committed himself to sacrificing, right the hell now. You can, of course, interpret it the more literal way you have, which leaves less wiggle room. My opinion: It's deliberately vague. If forced to place bets, I'd assume he only figuratively "remembers," because it doesn't demand that I make up rules about how the teleporter works to get his memories in the next iteration. But I don't think the text wants to definitively answer this question. e: BTW, one thing I love so much about Heaven Sent is that it supports thinking this hard about it. I think Hell Bent has good moments, but way less coherence. You can drill much further into Heaven Sent, and, like the Doctor, it never cracks. pgroce fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 17:46
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Cliff Racer posted:The show making GBS threads on pacifism was great, one of the best parts of the episode, second only to them exploring the alien landscape in the first episode and any bit of Dalek society/Daleks interacting with eachother. But then I think we've had this exact argument before in either this or another Who thread. The Daleks at least shows some understanding that war sucks and is traumatic, and there's a faint sense of tragedy at the climax with the last Dalek pleading to be saved. Compare to The Dominators, which really is just "War! It's fantastic!"
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Dec 9, 2015 18:28
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The dying Doctor is in the same room as the Doctor in the teleporter very briefly. We've seen in the past and most recently in Day of the Doctor that he can psychically share thoughts with past and future incarnations. It's possible that he gets it in just a quick burst as the previous version dies, with Bird triggering the memory.
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Dec 9, 2015 18:43
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anastazius posted:I think part of it was to bookend this series with her. I can't remember if she was in the first episode, but she was definitely in the prologue to the first ep: I really do like her, it's just the actual in universe reason for being in the finale is kind of murky. They certainly don't do much with her.
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Dec 9, 2015 19:16
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Cliff Racer posted:The show making GBS threads on pacifism was great, one of the best parts of the episode, second only to them exploring the alien landscape in the first episode and any bit of Dalek society/Daleks interacting with eachother. But then I think we've had this exact argument before in either this or another Who thread. Thankfully you're not trying to defend the entire episode devoted to crossing a 'chasm' that I could walk across without changing stride.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:32
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josh04 posted:It's actually pretty much the definition! The fifth doctor sacrificed himself to save his companion. He didn't kill himself for no gain in a situation where nobody had to die. If your benchmark for being Doctor-ish is "dies" and "doesn't do anything useful", then every random one-off redshirt the Doctor meets is just like the Doctor. Tom Baker in the Five Doctors is the exception, not the rule -- the vast majority of the time he's saving people by doing Doctor-ish things. Clara... doesn't do that. She has one failed attempt in the Girl Who Died and that's it. Moffat clearly wants her to be Doctor-ish, but is unwilling to actually let her resolve even a minor crisis, ever. Her greatest success on that front was, what, not being shot by the cybermen for five minutes until her boyfriend rescued her?
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Dec 9, 2015 20:38
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CobiWann posted:…this is a thing now? Cisgender has always been a thing. Its just the antonym of transgender. Barry Foster posted:Yes we did? We saw Hurt's face start to de-age (beard disappearing, wrinkles fading), but it wasn't explicitly Eccleston's face. That plus the Ears comment makes it pretty drat obvious that there's not another regeneration hiding between War and 9 though.
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Dec 9, 2015 21:12
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To my Santee: Part I of your gift is on the way from Amazon UK. Part II is in the mail from the US, but it should get there before Christmas!
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Dec 9, 2015 21:13
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Lottery of Babylon posted:The fifth doctor sacrificed himself to save his companion. He didn't kill himself for no gain in a situation where nobody had to die. It was probably Flatline.
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Dec 9, 2015 21:14
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Lottery of Babylon posted:The fifth doctor sacrificed himself to save his companion. He didn't kill himself for no gain in a situation where nobody had to die. I think there's a difference between Doctor-ish and replacing the Doctor. Clara never replaces the Doctor, but she is capable of standing her ground in a bunch of really dangerous situations. Most tellingly, she does so by bluffing, lying and taunting, just like the Doctor would do. Deep Breath, Flatline or The Girl Who Died just as examples. Of course she can't invent a device that defeats two-dimensional creatures or reverse engineer a Mire helmet. That would be ridiculous. She does save Ashildr and Rigsy, though. Face the Raven somewhat undermines Clara's sacrifice by having the Doctor solve the whole thing against all odds. Notably, Clara still takes the fatal gamble to immediately ensure Rigsy's safety, finds the most important witness to the crime, and accepts her pointless death without regret. If she hadn't been there, the Doctor wouldn't have solved the crime, and Rigsy would have died.
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Dec 9, 2015 21:21
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Cliff Racer posted:The show making GBS threads on pacifism was great, one of the best parts of the episode, second only to them exploring the alien landscape in the first episode and any bit of Dalek society/Daleks interacting with eachother. But then I think we've had this exact argument before in either this or another Who thread. I believe we have, yes. I understand your argument, I just still find the anti-pacifism stuff a trifle unsettling. Maybe I'd have to watch again, but I recall it being treated like the Thals are in the wrong for even wanting peace with their ancient enemy - maybe that's being unfair of me, but considering that the Thals are the descendants of survivors of a war where both sides almost wiped out all life on their planet, the fact that they've eager for peace and reconciliation was something I would have liked to have been embraced.
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Dec 9, 2015 21:24
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Lottery of Babylon posted:The fifth doctor sacrificed himself to save his companion. He didn't kill himself for no gain in a situation where nobody had to die. Clara thinks and acts and bluffs like the Doctor, but she can't back it up with being an immortal alien supergenius like he can. She's capable of filling his role and holding her own, right up to the point where the situation demands specific knowledge and/or a magic wand. That's why the half-dozen or more episodes where this is a major plot point all end with the Doctor looking like "this behaviour is going to get you killed". And he's right, it gets her killed.
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Dec 9, 2015 21:33
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Jerusalem posted:I believe we have, yes. I understand your argument, I just still find the anti-pacifism stuff a trifle unsettling. Maybe I'd have to watch again, but I recall it being treated like the Thals are in the wrong for even wanting peace with their ancient enemy - maybe that's being unfair of me, but considering that the Thals are the descendants of survivors of a war where both sides almost wiped out all life on their planet, the fact that they've eager for peace and reconciliation was something I would have liked to have been embraced. That twist was cut for time and budgetary reasons but it would have made a huge difference. We'd probably look back at the Daleks now as a one-off monster like the Voord or the Quarks.
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Dec 9, 2015 21:37
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Tempo 119 posted:Clara thinks and acts and bluffs like the Doctor, but she can't back it up with being an immortal alien supergenius like he can. She's capable of filling his role and holding her own, right up to the point where the situation demands specific knowledge and/or a magic wand. That's why the half-dozen or more episodes where this is a major plot point all end with the Doctor looking like "this behaviour is going to get you killed". And he's right, it gets her killed. In the end, it always gets the Doctor killed too. But he has a plot mechanism for coming back from the dead.
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Dec 9, 2015 21:39
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jivjov posted:We saw Hurt's face start to de-age (beard disappearing, wrinkles fading), but it wasn't explicitly Eccleston's face. That plus the Ears comment makes it pretty drat obvious that there's not another regeneration hiding between War and 9 though. Nah, the last few frames have Eccleston's eyes and forehead and that. Not that it's a big deal either way, of course. EDIT - check it out Barry Foster fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 21:40
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Barry Foster posted:Nah, the last few frames have Eccleston's eyes and forehead and that. Not that it's a big deal either way, of course.  That's amazing. Doctor Who has so much care put into it, nowadays!
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Dec 9, 2015 21:46
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