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Maduro and Diosdado must be planning their escape right now
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Dec 8, 2015 18:47
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Freddy Guevara said on an interview with VTV shortly before the election that he found it telling that the National Assembly did not call for investigations into the case of Cilia Flores' nephews, or the allegations that the Banca Privada D'Andorra was laundering drug money for PDVSA. It's only a matter of time before investigative committees are formed and dirty laundry starts coming to light. There's more than a handful PSUV officials (Hugo Carvajal and Diosdado Cabello to name two, both of whom won seats on Sunday) sweating buckets right now. I've heard talk that RCTV, the beloved television station Chavez closed in (2008, I think?) might be coming back. Exciting times in Venezuela.
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Dec 8, 2015 18:54
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Chuck Boone posted:Freddy Guevara said on an interview with VTV shortly before the election that he found it telling that the National Assembly did not call for investigations into the case of Cilia Flores' nephews, or the allegations that the Banca Privada D'Andorra was laundering drug money for PDVSA. Will Con El Mazo Dando get renewed for another season? I need closure after Diosdado proclaimed his undying love for the plastic club, not knowing that it was actually the club's evil twin sister 
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Dec 8, 2015 19:02
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Chuck Boone posted:Freddy Guevara i love venezuelan names
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Dec 8, 2015 20:18
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Mans posted:i love venezuelan names And that name is pretty much closer to the Venezuelan equivalent of "John Smith" compared to what some can come up with. This is a nation where composite names and misspelled foreign ones are so common it has led some idiot working on the birth certificates department to accept Yubiritzaida as a valid name (albeit a very joked one for a good reason). Chuck Boone posted:Freddy Guevara said on an interview with VTV shortly before the election that he found it telling that the National Assembly did not call for investigations into the case of Cilia Flores' nephews, or the allegations that the Banca Privada D'Andorra was laundering drug money for PDVSA. Speaking of that time period, if it's anything like when Capriles first took control of Miranda's government and started uncovering all the cases of scamming through public projects done during Diosdado's time as a governor (and that was a giant laundry list he couldn't be prosecuted against because he played a big role in a Assembly that was in his favor), I can see a lot of PSUV figures starting to say their prayers because if there were something among the first things the Assembly is gonna do, that would be to investigate where at least a quarter of what "suddenly disappeared" from the National Dollars Reserves actually went...
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Dec 8, 2015 21:54
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I think that Diosdado and Maduro don't have anywhere to run. The only place I can think is Bolivia but I don't think anyone else would really take them.
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Dec 9, 2015 03:46
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Why not Cuba?
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Dec 9, 2015 03:55
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Sinteres posted:Why not Cuba? Cuba's trying to improve relations with the US.
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Dec 9, 2015 05:28
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Sinteres posted:Why not Cuba? With the role they are playing in the Colombian Peace Process and their overtures to the United States I see it very unlikely.
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Dec 9, 2015 05:29
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Also BTW Maduro said on a Cadena today that he is not going to let the Opposition free Leopaldo Lopez. Sooooooo.... He also said that he's going to have troops protect Chavez grave...for absolutely no reason. edit: Also Here is more on the maybe, potential, who knows??!?!!? actions of the Venezuelan Military according to rumour. El Nuevo Heraldo is usually a decent source for news. They've broken some big stories about rape by the US Military in Colombia in the past. Also apparently the MUD is going to use some of it's power to change the editorial lineup on ANTV one of the (mostly) government run television stations in the country. This is probably a essential part of undoing Chavez's damage; bringing back opposition views to the airwaves. CalmDownMate fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 06:41
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punk rebel ecks posted:I never got the bus driver criticism. He hasn't been a bus driver in thirty years. That's the last thing I'd criticize the PSUV on. Obviously someone that drove buses is not smart enough to be president. It's classist bullshit and it makes me mad everytime I hear it. So what if the guy didn't graduate from Harvard and had to work since little to make a living? I mean the dude is a total moron but that has little to do with him being an ex bus-driver. Well, maybe the CO2 inhaling didn't help. CalmDownMate posted:Also BTW Maduro said on a Cadena today that he is not going to let the Opposition free Leopaldo Lopez. Sooooooo.... I doubt he can do much against that. By the way, I think it needs to be said that Lopez' wife, Lilian Tintori, was probably a giant asset in MUD's victory. She was campaigning pretty hard, stepping inside barrios and speaking with the people there, showing that the MUD does care about venezuelans as a whole. Without her I doubt the MUD would have pulled such an amazing victory. We're still feeling a happy buzz about the elections. Might be that I'm still a bit drunk and full with Hallacas. It's really odd to finally get some happy news from back home.
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Dec 9, 2015 08:56
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What are the odds of something being pulled to compromise the election results before they go into effect?
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Dec 9, 2015 09:55
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themrguy posted:What are the odds of something being pulled to compromise the election results before they go into effect? Seems to me that the election is done and cemented. There's nothing between the law that they can do to not lose control of the Assembly. Diosdado Cabello did say that (spanish) they would choose the new members of the supreme court before leaving the Assembly. I don't think it's going to be that big of a deal since once the MUD is in control of the Assembly they can destitute members of the Supreme Court. That said, I guess it's just more work for them to deal with, and I doubt they're going to just swipe the Supreme Court as a whole in order to name their own judges. Diosdado is probably trying to delay himself from facing charges.
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Dec 9, 2015 10:32
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Obviously someone that drove buses is not smart enough to be president. It's pretty clear that selecting leaders based on their willingness to kill people on behalf of Hugo Chavez has played a big part in putting Venezuela where it is. Creating a system where the poor have the ability to go to college and become technocrats is good. Taking bus drivers and bodyguards who never graduated high school and just putting them in charge of the economy is bad. Maduro's career is sort of emblematic of the difference between a rational welfare state and basket case socialism, so it's pretty relevant to Venezuela's larger problem.
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Dec 9, 2015 11:09
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Maduro was recently praising how they got an illiterate woman become a doctor in just 3 years, I'm sure she's an amazing doctor and all those other extra years students have to spend in non-PSUV schools are just fluff.
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Dec 9, 2015 11:36
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I mean, the issue is qualification. Obviously someone that has had the chance to study abroad and what not will probably be more qualified, but I don't really see a problem with someone that came from a much humble background leading a country that mostly comes from a similar background, IF he's capable. Obviously this would be an exceptional person and not... Maduro, who is certainly Special but not in the adequate way. El Hefe posted:Maduro was recently praising how they got an illiterate woman become a doctor in just 3 years, I'm sure she's an amazing doctor and all those other extra years students have to spend in non-PSUV schools are just fluff. Who was it that said that "if there's no paracetamol being produced in the country, we'll plant our own paracetamol plant and harvest it"? It's one of my favorite chavist quotes. On pair with "they are spying on us using the DirecTv antennas".
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Dec 9, 2015 11:59
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M. Discordia posted:It's pretty clear that selecting leaders based on their willingness to kill people on behalf of Hugo Chavez has played a big part in putting Venezuela where it is. Creating a system where the poor have the ability to go to college and become technocrats is good. Taking bus drivers and bodyguards who never graduated high school and just putting them in charge of the economy is bad. Maduro's career is sort of emblematic of the difference between a rational welfare state and basket case socialism, so it's pretty relevant to Venezuela's larger problem. I still don't see how any of that has to do with the guy's occupation thirty years ago. CalmDownMate posted:edit: Also Here is more on the maybe, potential, who knows??!?!!? actions of the Venezuelan Military according to rumour. El Nuevo Heraldo is usually a decent source for news. They've broken some big stories about rape by the US Military in Colombia in the past. Interesting. Can anybody else can chime in on El Nuevo's reliability?
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Dec 9, 2015 14:24
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punk rebel ecks posted:Interesting. Can anybody else can chime in on El Nuevo's reliability? I've used it as a source in my work before. What's also important to point out is that this story has been reported by some really reputable journalists in Venezuela, including Nelson Bocaranda. There is one fact that makes me believe the story (or a less dramatic version of it) is true. On Sunday, after voting hours were extended until 7:00 PM, tensions shot up. People started to get really worried that the fraud had started. 7:00 PM came and there was no announcement from the CNE; then, 8:00 PM. No one knew what was going on. Were voting centers closed? Were some still open? There were pictures and videos on Twitter of buses full of people trying to get into voting centers, and things weren't looking good. Some time before 10:00 PM, Vladimir Padrino Lopez appeared on television. He said that there was "total peace" in the country, that the army was out ensuring that nothing out of the ordinary would happen, and that there had been "insignificant" disturbances but that the army had dealt with them in order to maintain order. I didn't think too much of it at the time because I was so nervous waiting for the CNE announcement, but I wonder if that speech he gave was a message to PSUV militants to not try anything funny, or to Venezuelans in general that the army had their back.
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Dec 9, 2015 14:46
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So, what do you think really happened?
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Dec 9, 2015 15:12
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Chuck Boone posted:I've used it as a source in my work before. What's also important to point out is that this story has been reported by some really reputable journalists in Venezuela, including Nelson Bocaranda. I hadn't thought about it that way before, I saw the announcement as well but dismissed it as another quirk of a country with a hard-on for the military "Oh, of course, we need a bunch of guys in green to come out and say that everything went fine". Anyway, if Bocaranda reported it as well, it's pretty much certain they had their hand in it one way or the other. It's pretty sad that a lot of my friends here are attributing our victory to their intervention rather than the hard work of the MUD witnesses, though, those guys were freaking heroes defending every last vote. On another note, last night Maduro delivered what may have been the most incoherent speech of his presidency up to date, right from the site of Chavez's grave. It included gems such as the following: "I am Hugo Chavez, yes, I am Hugo Chavez! If I have to defend the workers of ANTV myself, I will do so." "I am in the right, I have the moral authority, I have the truth and I'll go forward. It's not a matter of majorities or minorities." "The economic war drove you to vote against yourselves. It was a mistake, you made a mistake." "I was going to build 500.000 homes, but I don't think I can anymore because you withdrew your support." He also let it slip that they knew the results of the election at 9 PM on Sunday, that they're going to be changing their cabinet, and at one point Maduro (while reading tweets in the air), mistakenly read out one that simply said "Maduro, suck it"  On the topic of vetoing the Amnesty Law, I think the smartest thing the opposition could do once they're sworn in would be not to seek a recall referendum right away; the country is in the middle of a major crisis and a recall would dominate the discussion for quite a while. Let Maduro hang himself when he attempts to block legislation designed to get us out of this hole (as he is sure to do) and then move in for the kill, by then the government will have lost its deathgrip on the media and nobody's going to stick his neck out for him.
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Dec 9, 2015 15:21
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Labradoodle posted:On the topic of vetoing the Amnesty Law, I think the smartest thing the opposition could do once they're sworn in would be not to seek a recall referendum right away; the country is in the middle of a major crisis and a recall would dominate the discussion for quite a while. Let Maduro hang himself when he attempts to block legislation designed to get us out of this hole (as he is sure to do) and then move in for the kill, by then the government will have lost its deathgrip on the media and nobody's going to stick his neck out for him. I disagree with this, I think having Maduro and Co still around and holding power would just mean that anything the MUD tries to achieve is going to be faced with heavy opposition. I mean, I understand your point, but I think getting rid of him now instead of later would be more beneficial even if it's another taxing period for the country. Don't give Chavism time to turn the hard times ahead into an argument against the opposition ("They haven't done anything! things are getting worse!") and ride the wave until Chavism is demolished in all three (yes, three, I'm old school) branches of the government.
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Dec 9, 2015 15:36
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I disagree with this, I think having Maduro and Co still around and holding power would just mean that anything the MUD tries to achieve is going to be faced with heavy opposition. I don't think he's going to make it anywhere near to the end of his term in 2019, I'm just concerned what happens with the public opinion if they feel that the MUD is just concerned about seeking revenge for the past years. But then again, it may be a moot point; if Maduro continues to put his foot in his mouth at the accelerated pace of these past few days, it may just be that everyone from both sides agrees on the single issue that the guy's got to go as soon as possible.
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Dec 9, 2015 15:48
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Do you really think people would see this act of "vengeance" as something negative? Because in my experience, seems to be the #1 thing on everyone's mind: to send every Chavist leader packing. Obviously that's not the idea, since vengeance will do very little to alleviate the country's pressing issues. But I think that the best the MUD can do is get that over with and avoid future complications. Besides, no matter what, there will still be scarcity, there is still going to be a staggering amount of crime and violence, and there's still plenty of corruption to deal with. The only immediate impact the MUD can hope for in order to show that they are coming in strong is to shake the pillars of the corrupt government and get Maduro and Diosdado into trial. We'll see what happens, 2016 is going to be quite a year.
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Dec 9, 2015 16:08
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It makes me wonder if anyone's tried to institute socialism in a country without a charismatic leader like Hugo Chavez, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Mao, etc. because charismatic leaders (a) go against the whole idea of socialism and (b) seemingly inevitably become tyrants. And now Venezuela has Maduro, who is a charismatic leader wannabe.
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Dec 9, 2015 16:35
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Do you really think people would see this act of "vengeance" as something negative? Because in my experience, seems to be the #1 thing on everyone's mind: to send every Chavist leader packing. You're probably right. I think the underdog mentality just runs deep in me after all the electoral defeats haha, I'm going to have to adjust to the fact that we're not a minority anymore.
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Dec 9, 2015 16:59
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Mans posted:i love venezuelan names This page has a list of all of the candidates who appeared on ballots on Sunday along with all the winners. Notable names: Mairalbert Barrios, Zulay Aguirre, Stalin Gonzalez, Genkerve Tovar (!!), Yamelis Herrera, Anniany Tigrera, Leybys Barrientos, Lesbia Castellano, Blagdimir Labrador, Bussy Galeano, Bozo Marco, and Loengri Matheus. I really want to change my forums name. punk rebel ecks posted:So, what do you think really happened? The story that I've heard circulated the most is that Maduro, Cabello, Vladimir Lopez et al. were in their führerbunker in Fuerte Tiuna and that Cabello pulled a gun on Vladimir Lopez at some point. I first heard that story on Sunday night before the election results were given at midnight. I think that as they were considering their options Maduro and Cabello asked Padrino Lopez if he was in, and he said "no", which I guess is the gist of the Nuevo Herald article after all. Labradoodle posted:It's pretty sad that a lot of my friends here are attributing our victory to their intervention rather than the hard work of the MUD witnesses, though, those guys were freaking heroes defending every last vote. This reminds me of an argument I've heard and read from pro-PSUV folks who are saying, "See? You won the election. Didn't you say Venezuela was a dictatorship?  " That doesn't mean that Maduro doesn't lean heavily to authoritarianism, or that fraud didn't happen/wasn't planned. The MUD won despite lots of fraud and horrendous attempts to undermine the democratic process. Woolie Wool posted:It makes me wonder if anyone's tried to institute socialism in a country without a charismatic leader like Hugo Chavez, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Mao, etc. because charismatic leaders (a) go against the whole idea of socialism and (b) seemingly inevitably become tyrants. And now Venezuela has Maduro, who is a charismatic leader wannabe. This is a good question. It also gets back to the "Is Venezuela a socialist country, or a kleptocracy trying to pass as one?" discussion.
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Dec 9, 2015 18:01
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Hugoon Chavez posted:and ride the wave until Chavism is demolished in all three (yes, three, I'm old school) branches of the government. Chuck Boone posted:This reminds me of an argument I've heard and read from pro-PSUV folks who are saying, "See? You won the election. Didn't you say Venezuela was a dictatorship? Chuck Boone posted:This is a good question. It also gets back to the "Is Venezuela a socialist country, or a kleptocracy trying to pass as one?" discussion. I believe that socialism continuously fails because rather than focusing on "how do I give the general population as much power as possible?" it focuses on "how do I give the government as much power as possible?" These are two very VERY different things. I don't even believe that a socialist country of the former has even been established and such politics have only been flirted with. If you want I can go into more detail to what I mean. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 18:16
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punk rebel ecks posted:How many branches of government does Venezuela have? Five, on paper. For the longest time, it really only had one branch, and it was born in Sabaneta.
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Dec 9, 2015 19:00
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Chavez invented a fuckton of new ministries and political entities in order to have more subordinates answering to him. This backfired after he died (probably before) and it just created a giant network of corruption an bureaucracy that was constantly at ends with itself. Until now every single power was in theory a puppet of the president, who by the Constitution should be one of the powers and not the supreme ruler, but well.. As for names, my mom is a lawyer and once had to write a document for a Mr "Jack Nicholson Perez" yes Jack Nicholson were his first and middle name. I've also met Zuleidamar, Yojason, Odette, and heard about a baby named Ronaldo Messi.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:45
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When it comes to names the worst I've heard so far is Leidisnay
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Dec 9, 2015 21:28
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This is a clip from the speech Labradoodle mentioned Maduro gave last night, along with a juicy bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmsQm05-Ztoquote:Maduro: The homes. You already said it. The homes. I wanted to build 500,000 homes next year. I'm doubting that now. It's not because I can't build them - because I can - but I asked for your support and you didn't give it to me. I asked for your support and you didn't give it to me. Whip out your phone and play that video the next time someone tries to tell you the PSUV cares about anything but stealing as much as possible.
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Dec 9, 2015 21:44
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Chuck Boone posted:This is a clip from the speech Labradoodle mentioned Maduro gave last night, along with a juicy bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmsQm05-Zto What a piece of poo poo
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Dec 9, 2015 21:46
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The election fuhrerbunker story is giving me serious flashbacks to the Big Sri Lankan Election. Delighted that it looks like Venezuela decided to follow in their footsteps and not throw a coup.
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Dec 9, 2015 22:01
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Pffft. Cuban names are more ridiculous.
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Dec 9, 2015 22:13
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Obviously someone that drove buses is not smart enough to be president. For what it's worth I was just making a dumb seat -> seat joke and agree with you that there's plenty of actual issues to criticize instead.
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Dec 9, 2015 22:27
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Mozi posted:For what it's worth I was just making a dumb seat -> seat joke and agree with you that there's plenty of actual issues to criticize instead. It's fine, it's just an argument that I've heard a bunch of times, totally serious, and it irks me. Chuck Boone posted:This is a clip from the speech Labradoodle mentioned Maduro gave last night, along with a juicy bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmsQm05-Zto Such a loving scum. I mean, nothing new, but being so obvious about it is what makes me angry. And there are still a bunch of people there applauding him literally having a tantrum and withholding homes as hostages for blackmail.
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Dec 9, 2015 22:45
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CalmDownMate posted:Also apparently the MUD is going to use some of it's power to change the editorial lineup on ANTV one of the (mostly) government run television stations in the country. This is probably a essential part of undoing Chavez's damage; bringing back opposition views to the airwaves. Interesting because because the government just handed over control of ANTV to the workers. http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Venezuelas-State-owned-Media-Channel-Grants-Ownership-to-Workers-20151208-0045.html quote:Executive control over Venezuela’s state-owned media channel ANTV will be transferred to the hands of workers, President of the National Assembly Diosdado Cabello announced on Tuesday. Obviously this would prove to be an obstacle for the opposition to get more right-wing, conservative voices on the airwaves.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:11
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Interesting because because the government just handed over control of ANTV to the workers. Yep Maduro is illegally taking a government entity that was created to allow their congress to speak to the people and gifting it to people who have no right to it just so he can prevent any opposing views from appearing in the media. And people say hes not a authoritarian.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:28
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Obviously this would prove to be an obstacle for the opposition to get more right-wing, conservative voices on the airwaves. Indeed? Funny how they give control to "the workers" only when they are about to lose their own control of the media!
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Dec 10, 2015 00:31
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Nah, that can't be right. The PSUV would never use workers as pawns in a political game.
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Dec 10, 2015 01:09
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