This is very quick and scattered because I'm distracted, but...builds character posted:It's quite possible I'm misremembering, but my recollection is that the following things that I would characterize as bad happen. The good thing about Worm is that the characters have nuance. 'Real good guys' don't actually exist. Worm's tone is serious and 'grey'. Some good guys are villains, some bad guys are heroes. It's not tragic. It's ambiguous Scion and the Endbringers are about as 'evil' as anything gets. Because Scion is a cosmic entity of literal conflict and the Endbringers are weapons of war dredged into action by the thoughts of a suicidal cripple. You can't truly assign morality to either of them because they're all just doing what they were made to do. Shadow Stalker - the bully - is about the worst it gets because she's needlessly petty and never acknowledges that anything she did was wrong. But Armsmaster is just a narcissistic cop who lets his badge go to his head (the fanbase always forgets that he's an esteemed hero before that all goes down). Eidolon is suicidal and redeems himself by taking on Scion. The Undersiders are said to be bad guys but, excepting Regent (who picks on Shadow Stalker, someone who is worse), what is is that they really do that is so bad beyond picking on the PRT? The ABB and E88 are far worse than them - and they all get defeated. quote:3. Do you mean co-operation vs. competition in the worm vs. humanity sense? Because otherwise I'm not sure I'm seeing it. The reason they win is because Taylor literally takes people and makes them into a bunch of slaves trapped in their bodies as superweapon. It works, so good job saving the world I guess but what makes the argument for tragedy (and for her as a hero) in my mind is that she has to make these huge sacrifices to save a society that was really awful to her. She turns into basically the most badass super villain of them all and she does it for a good cause but she's definitely still clearly in super villain territory. Taylor doing that is the classic 'I'll make you work together for the greater good'. Throughout the story, we see that if people understand each other and work together, they accomplish more than anything they could do alone. It's still not a tragedy. Taylor wins but it's unfortunate that she has to win in such a way that people are scared of her - but for that sacrifice, she gets to basically live in paradise. That's not tragedy. It's like archetypal hero's journey, with the hero unable to return to the old world as they've been forever changed. Was the society that awful to her? As a general rule? Armsmaster was, certainly - and he ended up apologizing and doing his best to atone. Shadow Stalker was - and she shows off her cowardice by running from the final battle. Alexandria was, but she gets killed and basically ends up disowned by the organisation she built. quote:4. Entire worlds die. It starts out with behemoth and your (my, anyway) reaction was wow that is a lot of superheros dropping like flies but it turns out LOL, that's just the warmup to a ton of different alternate earths getting totally torched by scion and even more people we've actually met dying. In between we get a solid slaughterhouse "we're not scion but we're still pretty bad" set of bad guys with a pretty dark storyline. The issue with this is that a lot of the characters who die do no matter. It's essentially the same of saying that Star Wars is a tragedy or sad or dark because nameless characters die. I'd say there are three characters of importance who die during the Behemoth fight, off the top of my head. Dragon, who gets rebooted. Accord, who dies to demonstrate the inability of people to work together in a crisis. And Regent - which just kind of happens and is something we'd see more of if the story was supposed to be what everyone says it is. And yet Regent dies to what, save Imp? quote:5. The ending is very much post apocalyptic because, you know, actual apocalypse. It had a small band trying to do good but the world was still pretty clearly hosed in a ton of different ways and people were being a bunch of bastards. For main characters, you've got taylor not dead but she got to be the super villain and now she's recovering with her not-mom on another world, grue is all sorts of messed up still, regent is dead, tattletale and imp are trying to be good and I forget what bitch is up to. Honestly, of the endings I thought dragons was the happiest. Everyone else is totally screwed in the new world which, I think it's clear, still has a ton of bad guys doing bad things in it. Grue is dead. The world isn't too screwed - towns and cities still exist and the world has Chevalier's Protectorate watching over it all. And they've got Glastig Uaine as Valkyrie. It is apparently post-apocalyptic but we don't really know what the extent of it is beyond 'there are some monsters around, maybe and Teacher and co. are off planning something nefarious'. It's not that bad an ending, not really. Again, this comes down to what Wildbow chose to show - people getting on with their lives and starting new towns without much concern - with what people then go on and ask him about, where there's apparently scary monsters and villains all over the place. quote:6. I must have missed the resurrecting bit. You mean the lady who made them come back as ghosts? Because I don't really think that counts. In Uaine's epilogue - that's Valkyrie, by the way - Clockblocker is seen putting on a new white bodysuit. So, yeah, they've got some way of bringing people back. quote:7. I do agree the epilogues tended to be a lot more upbeat than the rest of it, but the rest of it is jesus-alien and friends kill everybody while humanity is generally awful to each other so it's not like that's a particularly high bar. Although the home-making is pretty upbeat too, in the context of the whole story it felt like something that got built up just so scion and the slaughterhouse nine could knock it all down. See, this is what's interesting. Worm fans are so utterly preoccupied with Scion's endgame plot stuff which is like, what, two arcs of a twenty-something arc story that they just don't really look at how the rest of the story is presented. Things like themes, concepts, character development, the idea that Taylor is an unreliable narrator... It's just so strange. Does a tragic story end on 'upbeat' epilogues? edit: See, you say that Worm indicates that people are lovely to each other. I'd argue that it says that people are generally good - but it is the system that makes them act badly. This is personified in the 'big plot' by how the Entities lay down rules that draw people into conflict and how the Protectorate is set up by Cauldron to promote an army for the apocalypse not justice or peace. If the story was tragic, these systems would win. In Worm, however, all of those big organisations and entities are destroyed, leaving people free. In Defiant's epilogue, he even mentions that he should retire because he's not a good superhero. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Oct 3, 2015 |
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Oct 3, 2015 06:43
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I'm not sure you know what tragedy is. I also don't care to be the one to explain it. In Twig news: I feel like the Duke jumped to conclusions too fast fingering Avis. Does anyone else think that's what's giving Sy that bad feeling?
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Oct 3, 2015 07:36
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Pavlov posted:I'm not sure you know what tragedy is. I also don't care to be the one to explain it. "A play dealing with tragic events and having an unhappy ending, especially one concerning the downfall of the main character." What, exactly, is Taylor's downfall? What, exactly, makes the ending as presented unhappy? Why are the events tragic or sad, given that almost every single character ends up better off then they started? What is Taylor's tragic flaw that causes her downfall? You will be penalized if you draw from anything outside the text of Worm. It's okay to admit you're wrong, no one will judge you. If you compare Worm to any of the great tragedies, or any story that is really seen as tragic in recent history, the idea that Worm is anything approaching a tragedy is laughable. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith is a better executed tragedy than anything in Worm. It's a struggle to think of any part or character in Worm that one might think of as tragic. Mannequin, maybe. Panacea's attempt to fix her sister...? Weld? However, if you're intent on parroting lines to win obscure Internet literature debates in some childish attempt to make something seem more 'adult' then, sure, I guess it's a tragedy. If Wildbow wanted to write a tragedy then, honestly, it was an abject failure on his part.
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Oct 3, 2015 07:56
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poo poo i cant just enjoy something on the internet anymore is he still writing that sequel i would like to see a bit more
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Oct 3, 2015 09:13
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Pavlov posted:In Twig news: I feel like the Duke jumped to conclusions too fast fingering Avis. Does anyone else think that's what's giving Sy that bad feeling? Yeah, I'm with you here. I mean, I'm pretty sure the Birdwatcher (I love Sy's names for the antagonists) will turn out to be guilty, but I feel like she's going to be a cover for a deeper plot. In particular, I find it very interesting how the Duke is never referred to by name; the way he's always called the Duke really makes him feel like another of Sy's named antagonist monsters...
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Oct 3, 2015 09:52
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On the other hand, referring only by title is very appropriate for this time. I do agree that the Duke is just a little too eager here to see the action.
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Oct 3, 2015 11:16
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Milky I really don't care to get in a slapfight over it. Re Twig: Are you guys suggesting the Duke is in on the plot? That would be kind of strange given he's one of the people the rebels are trying to overthrow. Regardless, I'm really loving loving the Duke's character so far.
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Oct 3, 2015 17:36
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Pavlov posted:Re Twig: Are you guys suggesting the Duke is in on the plot? That would be kind of strange given he's one of the people the rebels are trying to overthrow. Regardless, I'm really loving loving the Duke's character so far. Oh. Oh dear. One of the Lambs is going to wind up assassinating the (fake) Duke and tried for it, and one of them will be executed for it, and that's the push they need to get themselves on the other side.
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Oct 3, 2015 21:37
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Pavlov posted:Milky I really don't care to get in a slapfight over it. Concession accepted.
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Oct 3, 2015 22:31
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thespaceinvader posted:I'm suggesting that the Duke has at some point before the current events been killed and replaced. And as I've been writing that last sentence, it's become very obvious how that could have worked... Interesting theory. But I'd think that assassinating, and especially replacing, royalty would be pretty hard given what we know about them. If the rebels (do they have a name yet?) are really that capable, I'm surprised they haven't practically won yet.
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Oct 3, 2015 23:17
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Pavlov posted:Interesting theory. But I'd think that assassinating, and especially replacing, royalty would be pretty hard given what we know about them. If the rebels (do they have a name yet?) are really that capable, I'm surprised they haven't practically won yet. They HAVE, it's just no-one is aware yet.
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Oct 3, 2015 23:33
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Oh god Jamie The Duke is terrifying. And there are more like him, apparently.  No wonder people are afraid of the Crown.
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Oct 15, 2015 07:11
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And he is only 16th in line for the Crown. Immortal god-king for final boss fight?
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Oct 15, 2015 07:18
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twig 6:13: Jamie.  and here we all thought it was going to be Gordon!
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Oct 19, 2015 18:40
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Soo was this the Dukes punishment for sy or just a experimental failure?
Saros fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Oct 23, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 19:52
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Saros posted:Soo was this the Dukes punishment for system or just a experimental failure? I took it to be option A)
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Oct 23, 2015 17:57
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Twig 7.8: Well that got interesting fast!
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Nov 9, 2015 13:52
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Nettle Soup posted:Twig 7.8: Well that got interesting fast! Sy has basically gone full Blake, at this point.
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Nov 9, 2015 15:54
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Twig 7.12: In Which Helen Becomes Even More Uncomfortable
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Nov 20, 2015 16:58
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Twig is really good at the moment. Like, really good. I'm having such a great time with it. Helen is proper creepy though.
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Nov 20, 2015 20:07
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Helen is great. I can't help but notice that Helen seems to be the only instance of a fully alien intelligent mind we've seen made so far. Makes me wonder if Helen is the academy's first real shot at it. If she is then her adult mind might be something even they're not fully prepared for. Looks like some foreshadowing for Helen becoming too monstrous to really ignore.
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Nov 20, 2015 20:32
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7.15+ Twig is a little bit heartbreaking sometimes. It also feels a little like, at least to me, that Sy kind of abandoned Jamie. He didn't try and watch over the new one, he just avoided it. There's no recognition, because this time he wasn't there. Also thinking back over how far Twig has come so far, 7.15 seems a really low number!
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Nov 26, 2015 15:17
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Nettle Soup posted:Also thinking back over how far Twig has come so far, 7.15 seems a really low number! Yeah, to think, at arc 7 in Pact Blake had just fallen into the abyss for the first time.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:31
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Milky Moor posted:edit: Similarly, I think I remember Wildbow stating why the chance of victory went up after Saint did that thing he did. Not because that Dragon wouldn't have a DT guy fight Jack Slash but because of something else which was less interesting because, again, it takes a character trait (Dragon's compassion and benevolence) and disregards it for some act of plot reason. I know this post is from months ago, but I started reading this thread a while ago and it got me thinking about (and re-reading) Worm. I couldn't remember it ever being explicitly stated exactly why Saint made the numbers go up, but I thought (not sure if it needs to be spoiled) that it was explicitly stated by Cauldron that while initial casualties would be higher, it was actually better for Scion to kick things off sooner rather than later because there'd be more capes around to fight him. If that was the case, and my memory is kind of hazy about a lot of the ending parts, then at the time Saint hit the kill switch wasn't Jack being closed in on? I remember the text implied they were pretty much about to catch him, in which case he wouldn't be around 2 years later to set things off early. This would fit both initial casualties being higher and an ultimately higher chance of success. I may be completely off base but I can't remember it ever being outright stated why, but I also read Worm like 6 months ago, much of it in the wee hours of the morning, so I may have invented words whole-cloth here.
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Dec 6, 2015 08:39
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Because she wouldn't have tried to contact Lisette (Kevin Norton's friend, and Scion's-human-buddy successor), who might have been able to shift things at the turning point (see the interlude). Also, probably because Saint could presumably aid with controlling Dragon tech without her pesky restrictions.
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Dec 6, 2015 09:45
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:Because she wouldn't have tried to contact Lisette (Kevin Norton's friend, and Scion's-human-buddy successor), who might have been able to shift things at the turning point (see the interlude). Also, probably because Saint could presumably aid with controlling Dragon tech without her pesky restrictions. 1. That's such a stupid reason. Unbelievably stupid. Somehow Dragon not contacting Lisette would change things when actually contacting Lisette did sweet gently caress all. 2. Saint was failing at controlling Dragon's systems and Dragon's restrictions were all broken at that point anyway.
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Dec 6, 2015 09:57
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Yeah I'm gonna pretend I got it right on this one. Unless somehow deciding to fly around the world a few times before doing a bit of continental remodelling was super duper critical to the end, I don't see how Lisette achieved anything at all. That's dumb as poo poo, and there are way more interesting options that are way less dumb.
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Dec 6, 2015 15:17
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Dragon being shut out puts more pressure on Taylor and forces her into the position where she kills Zion. Just like literally every other event that happens in the entire story.
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Dec 6, 2015 16:17
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Milky Moor posted:1. That's such a stupid reason. Unbelievably stupid. Somehow Dragon not contacting Lisette would change things when actually contacting Lisette did sweet gently caress all. It's what the #parahumans IRC came up with. And Dinah didn't create prophecies, she created predictions. Lisette failed , but ultimately it was Jack having a conversation which motivated Scion to experiment with the total extermination of all humans in the multiverse. Is that not at least equally stupid? Not that I think it is in either case. Saint yanking Dragon's chain probably helped motivated her to unchain more, quicker. Not to mention, as a power addict, he engineered Teacher's release, who presumably contributed to Scion's downfall, even if he did go rogue immediately after and take Contessa et al. with him. Also what's the spoiler policy in this thread?
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Dec 6, 2015 19:58
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I don't think it's necessary to spoil Worm discussions at this point.
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Dec 9, 2015 13:09
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Gitro posted:I know this post is from months ago, but I started reading this thread a while ago and it got me thinking about (and re-reading) Worm. I couldn't remember it ever being explicitly stated exactly why Saint made the numbers go up, but I thought (not sure if it needs to be spoiled) that it was explicitly stated by Cauldron that while initial casualties would be higher, it was actually better for Scion to kick things off sooner rather than later because there'd be more capes around to fight him. But they're wrong in their assumptions, which is Worm in a nutshell really. Capes fighting Scion isn't what stops him in the end and never really could have. What they needed was someone to convince Scion there was nothing worth living for. The numbers changing were all in aid of someone having that realization and executing that plan. The more they believed they could beat him through conventional fighting, the less chance they had of actually succeeding. Maybe that's why more capes initially would have been better, not because they'd stand a chance of winning but because it'd become obvious much quicker than they'd inevitably lose fighting him. Fans fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 13:24
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Don't think about it too hard. Worm's got a lot of things, particularly relating to the big setting stuff like that, that need to be cleared up. Especially everything from Slaughterhouse 9000 onwards. For example, don't point out that Tinkers work differently towards the beginning of the story than they do towards the end. The whole thing with Tattletale remarking that Armsmaster's power only works on technology in his immediate vicinity, like he has some kind of reality-warping power that affects technology, as opposed to the 'alien tech knowledge' it became later.
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Dec 9, 2015 13:34
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I don't think this has been recced before. Heretical Edge is a pretty interesting web-serial that apparently updates Tuesdays and Fridays. quote:When Felicity ‘Flick’ Chambers boards the bus for the first day of her junior year in high school, the most important thing on her mind is how to make everyone else take the school newspaper as seriously as she does. As a self-styled investigative reporter, she’s spent years picking through the monotony of her small town to find those few dark spots that make for compelling articles. I like it. Feels like a strange mix of Bleach (invisible monsters, neat weapons, group that hunts them down) and Harry Potter (school that teaches magic ... and monster slaying). (It's just the series that pops to mind first, OK, but it's pretty clearly urban fantasy).
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Dec 9, 2015 20:13
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Sweet idea, but good lord this first chapter is awkwardly written.
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Dec 9, 2015 21:16
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Nettle Soup posted:Sweet idea, but good lord this first chapter is awkwardly written. ? The idea is incredibly prosaic.
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Dec 10, 2015 10:54
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She used the word "motion" three times in two sentences. She uses "Drawled" "gestured" "replied" and is awfully fond of "shrugged" all in an attempt to avoid the use of the word "said", and I had to stop like, three times and read back just to work out what the hell the sentence meant. Not knowing the American school system, I also assumed when it said "school starts tomorrow" that she was about 11, as in my mind that's about the age where you care about the school paper. If this is a new school, which they're implying it is, how does she even know it has a paper! quote:“Eh,” I shrugged. “I have my moments. This time? Nah, it wasn’t hard to figure out. You made it way too complicated. It was bound to blow up on you sometime.” It's driving me up the wall, she does this for every single spoken sentence, but I'll give it a few chapters to see if it improves, the start of Worm is pretty ropey too, but not this bad. Nettle Soup fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 14:28
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A lot of adverbs, too.
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Dec 10, 2015 14:37
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So, WIldbow is beginning to put serious thought to editing Worm. By asking people on Reddit to rate every arc between 1 - 5 on a numerical scale. And then asking them to be prospective editors because he doesn't want to explain things to a professional editor. 
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Dec 18, 2015 13:25
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Milky Moor posted:So, WIldbow is beginning to put serious thought to editing Worm. You've gotta be loving joking. One of the worst things Wildbow can do is listen to his fanbase. He's already shoulder-deep in that poo poo given what he does with Word of God comments on the setting. Worm needs major revision but is already at a pretty good level, and the only part I wouldn't trust a professional editor with is writing the bridge where Skitter becomes part of the Protectorate.
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Dec 18, 2015 13:30
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Part of what I'd remove from Worm: Skitter's constant navel gazing. 'My strength was this and I was good at this and this is why I'm awesome, and here's why they're poo poo at this.' Equally, removing that would not convey that Skitter is self-absorbed and wants control.
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Dec 18, 2015 13:34
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