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CJacobs posted:Something that requires two people to mutually choose to do instead of playing normally warrants a nerf? That's a complete non-issue. The fact that it's possible means nothing. The fact that it was possible means everything actually, whether you choose to believe that or not. It was an exploit and it ruined games. It's not how the game was intended to be played. If you wan't to do that poo poo I'd recommend going onto kf_superperktraining to simulate that experience 
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Dec 9, 2015 19:07
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| # ? May 13, 2024 09:27 |
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Hans was a lot better when his gas was super lethal and his melee was a joke, back in his very first incarnation. The gas was basically instant death if you were in it, and a lot of people complained about it, but as you get better his gas gets easier to dodge, and you can actually be saved by healing through it because it's damage over time instead of all at once, so a good medic could save you if you got caught in it. Because of complaints about the gas though, they neutered the gas bombs and upped his guns, which was not great, those things were hyper-lethal, even worse than his current melee. The new change to his melee being hyper-lethal instead is a very poor fix, especially since after his update history that's now his only dangerous attack. His gas barely hurts you, his guns barely hurt you, his grenades barely hurt you unless you're caught in the middle of all of them at once. So now he's just in this awful place. His guns should do slightly more damage, his melee needs to do half or a third of its current damage, and his gas needs to go back to being the scary lethal weapon that makes everyone just run for it. That was actually a fun fight, way back when this launched. Now, he's just such a pain.
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Dec 9, 2015 19:09
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Plan Z posted:Hans as a concept seems like he's supposed to be a mirror image to Patriarch. Instead of attacking-retreating-attacking, he's just supposed to be on you the whole time. It's a neat choice, but throw in that he's never not attacking, has invincibility frames, and all of his attacks can theoretically one-or-two shot you and come in rapid succession, and you have a boss that you really can't have a strategy for. I wouldn't mind him taken from the game, but I also think he can improve. I do have to say the game has gotten very good after the last few updates, and I hope they're still listening to the people who have been providing the good ideas. It's also important to consider his speed. Even the fastest classes can really only hope to stay just ahead of him, and even then they sometimes fall prey to lunges. A boss that soaks up damage, does a ton of damage himself, and is super-fast seems like an obvious recipe for "thing that people will find frustrating." gnome7 posted:Hans was a lot better when his gas was super lethal and his melee was a joke, back in his very first incarnation. The gas was basically instant death if you were in it, and a lot of people complained about it, but as you get better his gas gets easier to dodge, and you can actually be saved by healing through it because it's damage over time instead of all at once, so a good medic could save you if you got caught in it. I'm on-board with this. The grenades are pretty well-telegraphed, and if you get caught in a big cloud, it's probably because you ran in a direction that was not smart. Even then, it's not a fatal error if you can respond quickly enough. It's also dumb that I can literally wander through gas clouds now with basically no thought because the effect is so marginal. Although I have seen Hans make some absolutely ludicrous mortar tosses. As in, tossing a barrage of grenades over the top of the farmhouse with pinpoint accuracy. That's not cool.
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Dec 9, 2015 19:14
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Hans was great when the closed beta went into EA public beta, and i was fully on board with multiple bosses and didn't miss KF1s Pat for a second. Since then he's been nothing but a stunning display of falling down a stairway of horrible design choices, so my expectations are depressingly diminished.
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Dec 9, 2015 19:26
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Skoll posted:Hey Questioner, what's the deal with that Alienware KF2 promo? Is it a special cosmetic item if you buy a laptop or something? https://na.alienwarearena.com/groups/alienware-twitch-channel/event/alienware-plays-killing-floor-2-w-guest-developer-tripwire
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Dec 9, 2015 19:30
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Foreskin Problems posted:I would like to report no problems keeping players healed during Suicidal Hans. The loss (since that's basically what it is) of the armor repair skill makes healing through FPs and Scrakes a little bit tougher, but it's manageable if you have smart teammates. Yall can carry more than one gun, you know. Can you tell me what I'm doing wrong, then? How exactly do I deal with Hans when I can't outrun him, I can't survive two consecutive melee attacks at 150hp (on loving hard mode when the entire rest of the game is easily managed on suicidal) and I can't damage him enough to enter the next phase before he's killed me? Should I be taking one of the melee attacks on the chin, weapon butting him back, and praying that he decides to not just immediately charge me again after he recovers from his stumble? How do I not be in Hans' grill with the default movespeed? Do I need to abuse geometry to keep him off me? He's getting even better at vaulting staircases so are there map-specific spots that will give a player some breathing room? Seriously, I'd like to know. You're the only person who has recently mentioned Hans is fine, so clearly you know something the rest of us imbeciles don't.
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Dec 9, 2015 19:51
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Yeah I'd like to know how a support is "correctly" getting punished for having the raw nerve to be a class that's slower than Hans' charge and thus literally incapable of not getting killed when the dice rolls "Hans wants to melee you now" I'd also like to laugh at the idea that this situation is an edge case. because lmao.
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Dec 9, 2015 19:55
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Changed my steam name to ONE IN THE PIPE in honor of the greatest boss in KF
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Dec 9, 2015 19:56
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Bring back Farty Hans.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:02
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She Bangs the Drums posted:Bring back Farty Hans.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:13
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She Bangs the Drums posted:Bring back Party Hans. Do this instead.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:23
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I always got the impression that Hans original design, with the especially lethal gas grenades, was to try to break up the party and focus players down, IE break up defenses and team synergy. His current design cuts to that in an incredibly unfun way by just straight up murdering people in 5 seconds or less. Tone Hans melee down considerable, drop 75% of the damage. However give hands the ability to target a player and make it visible and audible. Make a character selected glow, make the player selected hear their character give an audible reaction to being chosen. Hans should prefer targets furthest from other players. Have Hans get bonuses for successful melee strikes, like 10% a hit. At 20 damage a hit, this means 2 damage to his next strike, then 4 damage, then 6 damage, etc. Can still be terrifyingly lethal, but not instant death garbage. Make Hans way more easy to stumble, to knock him out of continuous melee strikes. Heck I'd design it in a way that successive rapid hits of any type causes hands to break away from melee; Tada, Commando is useful against a boss. Everything done for melee is done for guns, mechanically speaking, with variables changed accordingly. Make (Green) gas grenades way more lethal, similar to initial incarnation. Add Orange gas grenades; getting caught in it would deactivate player skills temporarily, making players more vulnerable to Hans. In cases of drops in HP or Armor, only maximums change. Hans should preferentially melee or chase after targets affected by Orange Gas. Hans should then be a running battle since fighting it out in the room will get a party broken up, and Hans seeking weak or isolated players. Change his damage so it builds up over time, and make it easy to break him out of it as well, so either a skilled player or team can save those targeted. This was my dumb idea.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:24
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Simpler suggestions are probably preferable, if only because I'd rather not see Tripwire add months of design when "more dangerous gas grenades, less dangerous melee" is probably perfectly sufficient.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:39
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Make Hans gas grenades dangerous sure, but keep away from instant death if geometry fucks you from escaping the cloud in 0.2 seconds, while giving it a much longer (but low damage per tick) DoT after effect for getting tagged. You get hosed up, but in a manageable way (more time to needle, more time for medics to dart you) instead of binary "Did you not get hit in the first place yes/no" live or die design mindset if you get stuck trying to jump over a shin height railing that Zeds are allowed to simply teleport over again. Boss attacks shouldn't be a joke but also slipping up all of loving once meaning death from full health in the span of 3 seconds or less is always bullshit in a prolonged multi phase battle unless you are playing Pro Brag On The Internet Difficulty. We already have explosive grenades for spike get hosed up damage. Making the gas grenades just a more colorful instant death if you don't/can't move fast enough isn't needed or bringing variety to the fight.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:53
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Simpler suggestions are probably preferable, if only because I'd rather not see Tripwire add months of design when "more dangerous gas grenades, less dangerous melee" is probably perfectly sufficient. This sounds great! If only there were some sort of way to test this. Maybe some sort of beta, early access build...hmm.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:56
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Simpler suggestions are probably preferable RoadCrewWorker posted:delete hans  OneDeadlyBum posted:This sounds great! If only there were some sort of way to test this. Maybe some sort of beta, early access build...hmm. 
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Dec 9, 2015 21:20
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She Bangs the Drums posted:how do you bop him out of his rush? When Hans is rushing the hitbox for his head tends to stick out the most, I don't know if you play zerker but depending on your movement is how you'll swing, if you moving forward you do an overhead smash, strafing is side to side swings, moving back is like a diagonal swing. Anyway when Hans is rushing you can time your melee hit to smack him in the head and knock him on hiss before he actually hits you, pretty sure this is only viable with zerker though since I'm proccing smash when I do it. As for the nades, that's actually a good idea, the reasons his nades where so insanely lethal was largely due to the inability to see them, that's not an issue anymore so I feel they can buffed again.
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Dec 9, 2015 21:39
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Section Z posted:Make Hans gas grenades dangerous sure, but keep away from instant death if geometry fucks you from escaping the cloud in 0.2 seconds, while giving it a much longer (but low damage per tick) DoT after effect for getting tagged. Even the explosive grenades are a lot weaker now, saw a guy standing quite close to at least three of them on Hard, close enough to get knocked around a bit but he survived albeit with a sliver of health left. And that is a quite clearly telegraphed attack with a delayed damage spike and red markers on the floor. Sure Hans melee charge is also telegraphed after a fashion but in this case there's very little you can actually do about it which is the real problem. Big damage spikes should be telegraphed and avoidable enough that they don't become more frustrating than fun. Like the Hans fight currently is.
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Dec 9, 2015 21:52
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Alteisen posted:When Hans is rushing the hitbox for his head tends to stick out the most, I don't know if you play zerker but depending on your movement is how you'll swing, if you moving forward you do an overhead smash, strafing is side to side swings, moving back is like a diagonal swing. I play zerker quite a bit now. I am only at level 17 though so i haven't procced Smash yet. Does anyone know what the cool down on a stumble for Hans is?
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Dec 9, 2015 21:58
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Section Z posted:Make Hans gas grenades dangerous sure, but keep away from instant death if geometry fucks you from escaping the cloud in 0.2 seconds, while giving it a much longer (but low damage per tick) DoT after effect for getting tagged. Now I feel vaguely bad about giving you so much poo poo about the Backup 9mm because this is a good post in pretty much every particular. Well done internet poster Section Z, well done.
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Dec 9, 2015 22:10
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Psion posted:Now I feel vaguely bad about giving you so much poo poo about the Backup 9mm because this is a good post in pretty much every particular. Well done internet poster Section Z, well done. You totally should have given me poo poo, I'm occasional good ideas that have to be filtered through a large amount of incoherence. Even if I am glad my obsession with the Backup talent helped questioner ID why knives were doing less damage on headshots, at least. It feels like "High damage" overall isn't the main issue as much as the "Blink and you died" speed the damage is dished out. Considering that applies to people who can't really handle Suicidal, just as much as the HoE pros dipping down to Hard for a fun night out only to get chumped by Hans. My comments on "What to do with Gas Grenades" is as much to try and make it stand out compared to explosive grenades anyways. If standing in the cloud would only kill you if you stayed in it for 5+ seconds like a moron, but it's DoT did a notable amount of grand total damage you would still want to avoid the thing, and it would be a viable threat keeping your needle and medic's attention you couldn't just ignore. Keep that poo poo dangerous but give you more leeway to recover from a single mistake, basically.
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Dec 9, 2015 22:18
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http://steamcommunity.com/games/232090/announcements/detail/758092451869228548quote:Stability: Another hotfix, nothing big.
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Dec 9, 2015 22:37
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Leave his current melee damage at X but split it into Y+Z=X. His melee charge opens with him throwing a syring at his target full of poison. Their screen has an effect so they know they've been poisoned and they glow green or something so teammates know it too. A side effect of the poison is a TON of adrenaline (to help aid the spread to your extremities!  ) and so you now run as fast as Hans. The poison quickly DoT's you for Y damage and if he catches you he hits for Z, totalling his current X. Since the targeted player now moves as fast as Hans they should have a guaranteed escape from the melee damage provided they don't get caught on geometry or catch trash or do a bad turn. It also fulfils the idea of forcing players into a moving fight. Mainly though it makes his super lethal attack a skill-based mitigation that is a relatively low skill. Can you run? Good, you shouldn't die.
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Dec 9, 2015 22:46
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what I'm reading is a lot of you think Hans should have damage which acts similarly to bloat bile: does a shitload of hp damage but it's DOT and you can mitigate it with a syringe or medic darts. I'm okay with this. I'd also be down for LuciferMorningstar's correctpost: LuciferMorningstar posted:Simpler suggestions are probably preferable, if only because I'd rather not see Tripwire add months of design when "more dangerous gas grenades, less dangerous melee" is probably perfectly sufficient. (the two aren't that different tbh) also if all else fails I want server administrator controls or a mutator or something to force Patriarch to always be the boss. I've fought him a grand total of twice, and if I have to roll the dice on facing Hans at the end of a wave I'd much rather not bother. Let me force Patriarch so I can get used to how to handle him and, y'know, maybe be able to provide valuable (or not so valuable) feedback on his balance too. And/or actually have fun with a boss fight, god forbid that ever happen  Psion fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 22:57
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So according to Yoshiro, the drop rates for KF2 hats are working as intended.
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Dec 9, 2015 22:59
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Skoll posted:So according to Yoshiro, the drop rates for KF2 hats are working as intended. did he say what the rates are? e: no quote:To my knowledge the drop rate is working as intended. The team will be tweaking and changing it as things move forward and we receive feedback on the system. (http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=114494&page=4) Psion fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 22:59
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I really don't care about the stupid drops but i hope the rate is like one item every 3 months.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:07
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Apparently this boycott KF2 or whatever group is still a thing. It's still incredibly stupid but the comments on the group page are something magical. People are begging black hat hacker groups to attack the game and company, making demands from Tripwire like they're holding the president's daughter hostage, and my personal favorite:quote:New positive review on the store page popped up! Don't let it to mess up with the true image of the current state of the game. Thumb it down!
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Dec 9, 2015 23:09
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Theta Zero posted:Apparently this boycott KF2 or whatever group is still a thing. It's still incredibly stupid but the comments on the group page are something magical. People are begging black hat hacker groups to attack the game and company, making demands from Tripwire like they're holding the president's daughter hostage, and my personal favorite: I can't even imagine caring enough about this poo poo to monitor Steam reviews and then write up a call-to-arms.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:11
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Require More Fire posted:I can't even imagine caring enough about this poo poo to monitor Steam reviews and then write up a call-to-arms. Grognards gonna grog.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:12
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Require More Fire posted:I can't even imagine caring enough about this poo poo to monitor Steam reviews and then write up a call-to-arms. People did it for Payday 2 post-micro; any negative review got upvoted by the hundreds and any positive review got tanked. Didn't even matter why or what the explanation was - thumbs up or thumbs down determined whether or not the swarm was gonna vote for you. I'm not surprised to see it here. 
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Dec 9, 2015 23:15
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The design philosophy that resulted in Gunslinger should be the guiding principle by which any further developments are judged. It's the proof of concept for KF2. It just works and it's fun.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:34
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Simpler suggestions are probably preferable, if only because I'd rather not see Tripwire add months of design when "more dangerous gas grenades, less dangerous melee" is probably perfectly sufficient. I'm not sure just scarier gas and weaker melee is sufficient though, as once you got a team working at all Hans in his initial incarnation could turn into a loving joke of a boss that was a slog just because of his numerous phases. He still wouldn't be anywhere near as fun as the Patriarch, and thus he wouldn't be solved as an issue with the game. You'd still groan at getting Hans, except "oh man I sure can't wait for this boring protracted fight we can't possibly lose anyway. Can I just get my EXP and move on?" I dunno, maybe make Hans phases mean something, let him pull skill/passives from players when he absorbs them from health, either disabling it for the fight or even using it to augment himself. That last one would also have some strategy involved in who he takes and also makes each fight with him a little less predictable and different each time. Either way, something has to fundamentally change in the Hans fight because he is currently designed in every aspect as the worst. Also 4 gunslingers and 2 medics make Hans a joke right now once properly leveled, since the Gunslingers can just kite the fucker forever when he goes melee.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:50
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I found out how to properly kill Hans
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Dec 10, 2015 00:01
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For some reason Hans has a tendency to hit himself with his own grenades on Farmhouse. I guess it's because it's a more open map than the others?
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Dec 10, 2015 00:03
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right now the only viable tactic to kill Hans is for him to kill himself glad to see you got your twirl down. She Bangs the Drums fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 00:27
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hahahahaha this is good. This is really good. FaustianQ posted:He still wouldn't be anywhere near as fun as the Patriarch, This situation would be about 10000000000x better than the current problem with Hans so given the choice between the two, there is no choice Psion fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 00:38
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FaustianQ posted:I'm not sure just scarier gas and weaker melee is sufficient though, as once you got a team working at all Hans in his initial incarnation could turn into a loving joke of a boss that was a slog just because of his numerous phases. He still wouldn't be anywhere near as fun as the Patriarch, and thus he wouldn't be solved as an issue with the game. You'd still groan at getting Hans, except "oh man I sure can't wait for this boring protracted fight we can't possibly lose anyway. Can I just get my EXP and move on?" With the art of Exploding Hats this was also the issue for me in KF1. I actually forgot how to fight Patty properly since all I ever did in KF1 was pipebomb stacking and making hats out of them. It still was a better fight then Hans, if an exploit requires your whole team to cooperate in a team coop game, then unless you're heavily abusing level geometry, that's not an exploit. Still I have poo poo luck with coin tosses it would appear, cause I got to fight Patty in KF2 precisely once. Since the patch it's Hans City all day long, not making me feel more inclined towards him in the least. If anything I notice more how bullshit he is, like he's now killing people in one hit in his second phase onwards. Every other thing in the game is sweet as gently caress, now that I got down the mechanics behind Zed Time extending. We should probably make a thread with our ideas on the official TWI forums, so that someone with actual pull would see them. With all due respect to Questioner, but he's kinda on the rear end-end of the game change chain  This is also great. Keep this in.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:42
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Alienware is doing their twitch thing in about 10 minutes. https://na.alienwarearena.com/groups/alienware-twitch-channel/event/alienware-plays-killing-floor-2-w-guest-developer-tripwire supposed to be giving out in game items? No idea. Just a heads up
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Dec 10, 2015 00:53
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You should be able to knock Hans' grenades back him to with your weapons.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:53
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