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Humans Among Us posted:Did they rename Malign Gateway or are yall just freestylin? Freestylin' because I always forget the name. And somehow got fixated on the description. 
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Dec 9, 2015 20:17
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Sage Grimm posted:Stealth is not useless in extended. It's actually amazing anywhere that's not Hell (has a tendency of dropping enemies directly on top of you) and Ziggurats (small arenas). You can lose particularly nasty enemies by breaking Line of Sight faster which makes kiting techniques better if you aren't being noisy every step of the way. And you can sneaky sneak the runes right out from underneath the named princes which is better for your score than trying to kill them. I wasn't trying to say stealth was useless at all. The whole kit got significantly worse all of the sudden is what I meant, though I suppose I wasn't too clear on that. My most recent character in extended trained stealth to 20ish and I was glad for it for all of the reasons you mentioned. And yeah, I learned my lesson on shortblades from that run. Still, I feel that's another skill that loses most of its value in extended, though I admittedly haven't given it another shot since.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:24
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World Famous Whore posted:
So this flat-out makes armour less encumbering, so it's easier to wear heavier armour than your strength would allow if you'd like, or cast in leather like you were in robes? (Though I guess leather has ER 4 so you'd need another rank of it, first.) I like it. Is it Ds only or can you get it off potions too?
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Dec 9, 2015 20:36
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While I don't think of Sigmund as scary anymore, I was being facetious when suggesting he needed to be buffed. Anyways, he apparently doesn't stand to be insulted like that, because he just tore me a new one for my insolence. You're the splat king, Siggy. I'm sorry for suggesting otherwise. please don't hit me with a +4 scythe of venom while you're Mephitic'd again Dee Ehm fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 21:14
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Dee Ehm posted:please don't hit me with a +4 scythe of venom while you're Mephitic'd again Ha, someone wasn't very careful. He splatted a kobold assassin last night after I curare needled him. Confuse early is so very deadly. Matlock Birthmark fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 22:02
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I'd still like to see some kind of hex set-up spell. Awhile ago I typed up the idea for a spell that was basically flaming cloud but instead of fire damage, it would make monsters standing in it take a big -MR hit and lose a pip of resistance for fire, ice, poison and elec. Call it circle of malediction. Why not make a level 9 hexes spell that has a big scary debuff when it passes an MR check, but also does a much more minor effect that never fails? Or how about a hexes/fire/poison spell that MR check enchants a monster to radiate fire damage and get inner flame, and each turn the effect can automatically spread to any monster standing adjacent. Fever outbreak spell.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:15
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The only reason Sigmund doesn't seem that scary is because Grinder exists. They're both complete fuckers when they spawn at their earliest points.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:20
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I need some caster advice. Against all odds, my DEFE is still alive at L7 but I'm feeling like he's pretty poo poo against anything with FR. So basically, this is the first time I've gotten anywhere with a caster and I don't really know how to proceed. He currently has the following spells: Flame Tongue, Conjure Flame, Sticky Flame, Fireball, Mephitic Cloud, Bolt of Fire, Conjure Ball Lightning, Poison Arrow and Poison Cloud. I also have the books Lehudib's Handbook of Dusty Damage, Flames, Clouds, Ice, Maledictions, Sif Muna's Disquisition on Fire and Intoxication, Vaciel's compendium of Arcane Weapons and Book of the Dragon. What kind of spells should I be looking for to round out my abilities?
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Dec 9, 2015 23:25
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Well you've got Poison Arrow so that'll eventually be your go to for something that's resistant to your main form of attack. But if you're level 7 you're in the early game; you aren't going to be worried about fire resistance on anything except Crimson Imps and those can be kited away. Everything else will be Flame Tongued or convinced to firewalk through your Conjure Flames until you have enough MP to throw around Fireballs all willy nilly. Or if you want to be MP conservative you slap them with Sticky Flame and back away.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:33
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^^ gotta imagine he means Lair 7 Half of those are random books, but they all sound like conjuration spellbooks. Seems like you've got quite a few different flavours of attack spells. The usual new player DE trap is never putting some xp into fighting, dodging and stealth. If you hit ! in the skill screen it will show you the relative cost of training skills, and you can see that getting a handful of levels in each of those can actually be pretty cheap compared to pumping your spell skills up even higher.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:33
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Unimpressed posted:What kind of spells should I be looking for to round out my abilities? Pretty noob here, but what are you casting skills looking at right now? That said, and not knowing what spells the Randart books contain, you might consider Dazzling Spray in that Book of Maledictions. It's a much less noisy alternative to mephetic, and you wouldn't have to worry about FR with it either. Dazzled monsters are also a lot less threatening. Plus, as an FE, you're probably going to be upping Conjurations anyway.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:34
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resistentialism posted:^^ gotta imagine he means Lair 7 Oy, I'm dumb. Even then, I'd be hard pressed to think of anything in the main dungeon that'll be difficult to put down with enough Fireballs thrown at it until you've got literal dragons running around. But regardless, Poison Cloud to open if they're not poison resistant, Poison Arrow if they're beefy and alone, liberal application of Fireball otherwise. If they're still moving and adjacent to you, Sticky Flame and back away.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:41
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Hey, everyone talking about new and exciting powers for Hexes or Translocation or whatnot, I would like to remind ya' that Poison still caps at Spell Level 6 and is still the true worthless skill to put points in.Prism posted:So this flat-out makes armour less encumbering, so it's easier to wear heavier armour than your strength would allow if you'd like, or cast in leather like you were in robes? (Though I guess leather has ER 4 so you'd need another rank of it, first.)
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Dec 10, 2015 00:25
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World Famous Whore posted:Hey, everyone talking about new and exciting powers for Hexes or Translocation or whatnot, I would like to remind ya' that Poison still caps at Spell Level 6 and is still the true worthless skill to put points in. I have always wondered why the poison magic school didn't get access to some spells that do acid damage and cause corrosion. It seems like a natural progression of the poison school.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:33
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Matlock Birthmark posted:I have always wondered why the poison magic school didn't get access to some spells that do acid damage and cause corrosion. It seems like a natural progression of the poison school. Because according to the devs and the official list of ideas that will never be implemented, poison being useless in late-game / extended is good design, poison arrow is already a great spell, poison fulfills its role in the game and adding acid to it would negate the point of it not being useful later on. That said, ideas on the 'never ever' have made it in the game before.
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Dec 10, 2015 01:01
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Dee Ehm posted:Because according to the devs and the official list of ideas that will never be implemented, poison being useless in late-game / extended is good design, poison arrow is already a great spell, poison fulfills its role in the game and adding acid to it would negate the point of it not being useful later on. Huh. So it's intentional that an entire spell school sucks? Well, that sounds like a pretty poo poo explanation. But since I have never had a character make it into extended, I certainly can't comment. Matlock Birthmark fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 01:04
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Dairy Power posted:Honestly, this would be my favorite roguelike if the extended game (and Zot) didn't make so many cool options just outright worthless. My first character to ever reach Zot was a Vampire Enchanter and I was super disappointed when I realized that my stealth, hexes, and short swords were suddenly almost useless. I understand that debuffs can trivialize encounters sometimes, but the way it is now is just not fun imo. Thanks for this. I am literally now playing an unarmed combat/stealth Vampire Monk that I just bought a hexes book for that I thought could possibly go somewhere. Now I'm crying a little.
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Dec 10, 2015 01:06
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SlyFrog posted:Thanks for this. I am literally now playing an unarmed combat/stealth Vampire Monk that I just bought a hexes book for that I thought could possibly go somewhere. Hexes aren't useless though! They die off especially hard in extended, since a lotta scary stuff is immune to MR, but even in Depths / Zot / Vaults Tukima's Dance and Confuse will have plenty of targets. Most extremely dangerous monsters can see invisible, but invis is nearly a free rune in Shoals / Spider. Darkness reduces your line of sight, and what you can't see, can't see you. Dischord is at the top end of spells, but in large packs, its got a good chance of turning a number of monsters against each other, even those with high MR. The splash spells in Hexes are nice too. Dazzling Spray and Fulminant Prism are useful for most of the game, Metabolic Englaciation slows everything in line of sight that doesn't resist cold regardless of MR, Summon Mana Viper can help defang enemy casters with their antimagic branded attacks, and Silence will stop Ancient Liches and Greater Mummies both from casting at all. Spectral Weapon is also amazing but you can't make spectral fists.
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Dec 10, 2015 01:45
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PArrow is as powerful as LCS against the vast majority of poo poo in the game, except cheaper to cast, dead silent, longer range, and at like a quarter the EXP cost. No, it's not amazing for killing Cerebov, but it will win you the game all by itself and along the way you can get whatever other school you want (because you have tons of free EXP due to your primary spell being cheap) and kill Cerebov with that. It's not even "useless in late-game," it ruins stone giants and tengu reavers and draconians and storm dragons and orb guardians. It's just that Crawl players have this weird obsession with a) sacrificing early-game power for late-game power, and b) hyper-focused single-facet builds. See: Chei, statue form, UC, nagas, level 9 spells. If it doesn't help you do megazigs, it's trash. Poison Magic is a good school, but its primary virtue is that it crushes the early/mid-game, so of course everyone considers it worthless. Now, Poison Magic does have problems, but they're not that it lacks big flashy high-level spells. The biggest problem is that OTR and VBolt are kinda crappy, so it's a long hard road to PArrow. Also, of course, it involves mind-numbing amounts of kiting. You can basically say all of the above about Hexes too. megane fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 01:47
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megane posted:Poison Magic is a good school, but its primary virtue is that it crushes the early/mid-game, so of course everyone considers it worthless. Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the distinction in this argument is the spell school vs the spells themselves. Poison has some great spells, but Poison Magic the school isn't worth investing XP in. Most of Poison's spells are also Conjuration spells, and leveling Conjuration will give you far greater benefits to spells you'll use through the whole game. So why ever invest anything in Poison Magic? The spells will still be very effective during the window they are useful. Matlock Birthmark fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 02:02
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The biggest problem with Poison is there is no point in putting more then 8-10 levels in it, because even then Poison Arrow is Poison/Conjuration and Conjuration is the obvious one you should focus on. Poison is an exp trap. I say this as someone who likes poison too. I enjoy using OTR to do an early Orc run. I just think it needs something late game to convince me that after 6 or so levels I shouldn't turn it off.
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Dec 10, 2015 02:04
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Matlock Birthmark posted:Now please correct me I'm wrong, but I think the distinction in this argument is the spell school vs the spells themselves. Poison has some great spells, but Poison Magic the school isn't worth investing XP in. Most of Poison's spells are also Conjuration spells, and leveling Conjuration will give you far greater benefits to spells you'll use through the whole game. So why ever invest anything in Poison Magic? The spells will still be very effective during the window they are useful. Getting 3 Pois/7 Conj is considerably cheaper in XP than 10 Conj; 5 Pois/5 Conj is cheaper yet, and won't hurt you at all in the long run, since in the long run, the cost of getting a skill to 5 is... a couple of dragons's worth of XP, maybe. While you're still using poison, you absolutely should be training it as much as conj.
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Dec 10, 2015 02:09
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Poison arrow is a strong spell but there are lots of strong single target spells. Plus even if you want to use it you can do so with a conjurations focused build. The question I ask myself when it comes to poison magic is "why would I ever use this?". I can't think of a good answer. Cause its not actually significantly better in the early and mid game than a bunch of other builds. There are plenty of monsters that ignore poison entirely, and the venom mage class is useless against them when they don't have poison arrow's irresistible damage. Your best starting spell is mephitic cloud, but there are better classes that start with it as well. So why would I ever want to start as a venom mage? I don't think venom mages even have a noticeably better winrate than other magic classes, despite supposedly having a stronger early game. EDIT: There's also the fact that the design philosophy "be mostly useless outside of one spell later on" is pretty drat boring, which I think is one of the main reason people suggest expanding on it more. Its not a fun school to use when your options become so limited. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 02:12
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PleasingFungus posted:Getting 3 Pois/7 Conj is considerably cheaper in XP than 10 Conj; 5 Pois/5 Conj is cheaper yet, and won't hurt you at all in the long run, since in the long run, the cost of getting a skill to 5 is... a couple of dragons's worth of XP, maybe. While you're still using poison, you absolutely should be training it as much as conj. I think the problem is that you are going to get more Conj anyway to get to higher tier spells like OoD or whatever, so in the end you were going to get that Conj 10 ANYway so why do more than a little poison?
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Dec 10, 2015 02:14
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Still think Poison should get a Spell lvl 7 or 8 form of Virulence. While it won't guarantee that I will stick it out with Poison it actually makes it a possibility.
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Dec 10, 2015 02:17
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Thanks for the replies. Yes I am in Lair 7 and it just seems that Poison Arrow is a bit underwhelming. Lightning balls work well, but I have no eElec so they're scaring the poo poo out of me. Anyway, I'll keep going and see. For those who asked, my current magic skills are conj 11.8, charms 5.8, fire 14, air 7.8, poison 8.7 and also I have 6.5 fighting and 12.1 dodging, so haven't been neglecting the defensives. Is it worth skilling up armour as a caster?
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Dec 10, 2015 02:19
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Ramc posted:I think the problem is that you are going to get more Conj anyway to get to higher tier spells like OoD or whatever, so in the end you were going to get that Conj 10 ANYway so why do more than a little poison? Well part of the reason is going to be the time value of your experience points: getting to the spell power/success rate of 5/5 or 10/0 is going to be much faster with the former distribution, especially if you have a good poison apt, and the early game is so much harder than the late game that the earlier killing power is probably worth more to your win rate or turn count than delaying your ability to cast Firestorm or whatever.
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Dec 10, 2015 02:26
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i've been enjoying poison arrow a hell of a lot more with the monster rPois changes
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Dec 10, 2015 03:00
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rchandra posted:Dismissal/regen got their penalties changed. It'll be live tomorrow. Heads up that the regen change appears broken. Rather than attuning when you reach full health, the amulet only attunes if you put it on when you're already at full health. E: Quick correction that this may only be an issue if you have no MP regen, so mainly Pakellas worshipers. It does not appear to be a general problem. Not My Leg fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 03:32
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megane posted:The biggest problem is that OTR and VBolt are kinda crappy, so it's a long hard road to PArrow. OTR is pretty great for VMs at least, and VBolt is still a bolt and only level 5 so it's good for any conjurations-type without one. The only real problem with poison is that you sometimes have to press away from monsters. There's also the resistance situation - a lot of rP enemies also resist ice and/or necromancy so those diversifications don't work.
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Dec 10, 2015 03:59
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Unimpressed posted:Thanks for the replies. Yes I am in Lair 7 and it just seems that Poison Arrow is a bit underwhelming. Lightning balls work well, but I have no eElec so they're scaring the poo poo out of me. Anyway, I'll keep going and see. I'd suggest focusing heavier on Conjuration of your spell schools since you're going blasting. Most if not all single target damage spells are affiliated to that school so it'll help in that underwhelming feeling you're experiencing. And yes, lightning balls are terrifying.  I tend to skill armour only when I find some good randart in scale/chain or when I switch to some of dragon armours.
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Dec 10, 2015 04:36
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Ramc posted:I think the problem is that you are going to get more Conj anyway to get to higher tier spells like OoD or whatever, so in the end you were going to get that Conj 10 ANYway so why do more than a little poison? You do it so that you can kill monsters better, and not die. It's pretty hard to use OoD if Nessos murks you first! Not My Leg posted:Heads up that the regen change appears broken. Rather than attuning when you reach full health, the amulet only attunes if you put it on when you're already at full health. Works for me when I test - can you give me more details on how you're triggering the bug? PleasingFungus fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 04:52
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Internet Kraken posted:Poison arrow is a strong spell but there are lots of strong single target spells. Plus even if you want to use it you can do so with a conjurations focused build. The question I ask myself when it comes to poison magic is "why would I ever use this?". I can't think of a good answer. My answer might be "it basically gets you a free rune if you get Spider". Poison magic absolutely wrecks a majority of Spider's threats, it's cheaper and easier to get some of that skill than hugely buff up something else, and that gives me more time/xp to grab something else. Unimpressed posted:Is it worth skilling up armour as a caster? Barring something like a robe of the archmagi, yes. I hate wearing anything much lighter than ring without a really compelling reason. I mean, you can. Plenty do. I just like having some sturdiness, and make it a priority.
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Dec 10, 2015 05:38
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I guess my main problem with Poison magic; its boring. Its not fun to use because it only has one or two decent spells for later on. I think its a design problem when a school is so much less interesting than all the other ones. I've never been excited by the potential prospect of branching into poison magic. Getting a free ticket through one rune branch doesn't make me want to use it.PleasingFungus posted:You do it so that you can kill monsters better, and not die. It's pretty hard to use OoD if Nessos murks you first! That's a weird example to use given Nessos is vulnerable to meph cloud, thus you only need a very minor poison magic investment to trivialize him.
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Dec 10, 2015 05:48
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Don't forget that poison arrow only exists in one rare book. Better hope the floor god or Vehumet are kind to you, otherwise you're gonna have a really awful time in lair. VM is like the one start where I do orc before lair, because good loving luck killing black mambas/spiny frogs/hydras as a VM without PArrow. Ps you don't really need any poison skill for PArrow if you have Vehumets bonus and the other two good poison spells are conj/air/pois so you should just get air magic instead, a school full of good spells. e: I also don't think "it's an easy spider clear" is that true either. Emperor scorpions and ghost moths both have rP. Being able to kill all the smaller spiders easily is nice but that's really not the same thing. Darox fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 05:55
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Darox posted:Don't forget that poison arrow only exists in one rare book. Better hope the floor god or Vehumet are kind to you, otherwise you're gonna have a really awful time in lair. VM is like the one start where I do orc before lair, because good loving luck killing black mambas/spiny frogs/hydras as a VM without PArrow. A blowgun and 5 throwing skill does the same thing.
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Dec 10, 2015 06:11
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As others have said, I've never seen that it was worthwhile to invest in the Poison Magic skill given that there are few good poison spells that can't be cast with actually-good spell schools anyway. Yeah, it takes a little longer to get mephitic cloud castable off pure conj or conj/air rather than conj/air/poison, but so what? It's a little harder to win a fight if you don't quaff heal wounds halfway through, too, but I still make every effort to avoid doing so. There should be high-level poison spells that blast things with acid.
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Dec 10, 2015 06:52
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Internet Kraken posted:I guess my main problem with Poison magic; its boring. Its not fun to use because it only has one or two decent spells for later on. I think its a design problem when a school is so much less interesting than all the other ones. I've never been excited by the potential prospect of branching into poison magic. Getting a free ticket through one rune branch doesn't make me want to use it. Yeah this is really the problem, it has spells that are useful but honestly insanely boring conceptually. Ignite poison is the only thing that is really 'cool' in the whole skill tree, which is a shame because there's a lot you could do with poison and acid.
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Dec 10, 2015 06:54
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I'm not really willing to claim that poison is "boring" in a way the other, good spell schools are not. I mean, you couldn't even call poison magic boring in comparison to other, good skills, or strategies, or items, or anything. Like, fireballs? Swords? Armor? Yaaawn. But they're good the whole game. Poison doesn't need creative, quirky spells any more than fire or ice do. It just needs good ones. There's nothing wrong with a skill being good all game rather than good early and bad later. Most of the skills people do use are good all game. When do Fighting or Conjuration or Charms fall off in effectiveness in comparison to their early usefulness? Never. Like, I seriously have no idea how people say with a straight face that poison attacks are super good early on when the Lair exists.
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Dec 10, 2015 06:59
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Ferrinus posted:I'm not really willing to claim that poison is "boring" in a way the other, good spell schools are not. I mean, you couldn't even call poison magic boring in comparison to other, good skills, or strategies, or items, or anything. Like, fireballs? Swords? Armor? Yaaawn. But they're good the whole game. That's true, and I really don't like how leveling Poison Magic generally doesn't fall into the 'would a reasonable good player do this?' category of actions. Like why? What are you actually getting out of Poison Magic that you wouldn't get out of just leveling something else? If we're speaking frankly, it's not even close to 'yeah this exp is wasted but it's soOOoOO good early on' as a spell school.
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Dec 10, 2015 07:05
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