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My brother brought up a really good point last night when we were discussing this vis-à-vis Trumps poll bump from his Monday statements. He thinks a lot of this is Islamophobia is driven by the fact that Muslims are easily set apart from society by their dress and actions, and this makes it impossible for many Americans to assume that everyone they meet is just another version of them.
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Dec 10, 2015 19:23
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In case anyone is wondering how this Trump stuff is going down in the UKquote:25 per cent of the British population think that banning Muslims is an "appropriate" policy for the US. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/donald-trump/12041742/Donald-Trump-Muslim-ban-This-is-how-US-and-UK-attitudes-to-Islam-differ.html Interestingly, attitudes amongst voters of the main UK parties comes nowhere near the 65% of Republicans that support Trump's muslim ban; 21% of Labour voters support it vs 30% of Conservative voters. However, 61% of UKIP voters support it. For those not in the know, UKIP is essentially a protest party that appeals almost exclusively to grumpy old pensioners (you know the ones), and holds a whopping great 1 seat in the house of commons, out of a total of 650. UKIP: slightly less racist than Republicans.
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Dec 10, 2015 19:27
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Farage is always scrupulous to use dogwhistles and act like he has no ill will towards immigrants, only towards the policies of their countries of origin. That's what people are missing when they compare Trump to Farage or to Reagan's "states rights" speech or even George Wallace--that stuff is or was all in code, whereas Trump's rhetoric is naked enough for the dumbest racist to understand. Trump's cunning ascertained that he could dominate right-wing media simply by casting off the trappings of coded language.
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Dec 10, 2015 19:43
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Al-Saqr posted:It's really amazing seeing people recycle the same horseshit racial and ethic hatred over and over, it's the biggest damnation of the information and social networking age that even in 2015 people can relive 1800's anti-Chinese/irish/whatever, 1930's anti-Semitism, 1950's Racism, cold war anti-Russian, and the cycle keeps repeating. I will say this and I will keep repeating it, the current climate of hate and insanity against american citizens who's chosen faith is islam in the US has been aided and abetted by unrestrained propagation of the media and entertainment industry against arabs and muslims in general. What we're seeing today Is the natural result of decades of political propagation and agenda driven targeting of muslims by the news cycles and Hollywood, who have gotten away with things they could've never gotten away with had their targets been African American or American jews. In this particular case a not insignificant portion of the blame lies with the absolutely atrocious job that self-appointed spokespersons for Islam have been doing in the media. What do I mean by that? For starters, engaging in incessant victim-blaming (CAIR's press conference where they blamed the San Bernardino shootings on the killer having his beard made fun of made my blood boil and I'm no Trump supporter), aggressively hurling the label of Islamophobia against anyone who criticizes the doctrines or practices of the faith, vociferously rejecting the ideal of free speech (usually with mealy-mouthed talking points about "responsible speech", but sometimes outright rejecting free expression altogether), and, at the core of all this, a steadfast refusal to concede that there is anything about Islam itself that needs to be changed (as opposed to the actions or attitudes of individuals). Among other things, I think that apologists and spokespeople for Islamic communities in western nations need to immediately drop the argument that the latest batch of terrorists committed their crimes because they weren't devout enough, or because they weren't properly raised in a traditional Muslim household, or because they felt alienated from their faith somehow. Whether these arguments are true or not is debatable - but the media figures who make these arguments ought to realize that they really rub secular westerners the wrong way. Not only do they sometimes come across as a roundabout form of victim blaming, but these arguments send the message that the first priority of muslim organizations is protecting the good name of Islam itself (an institution, not a group of people) and winning the culture war against individualism. Such arguments telegraph an expectation that Islamic cultures will not and should not have to give up anything in the pursuit of integration. And as far as the rest of your post - I think you should acknowledge that the MOST damaging media and entertainment portrayals of muslims, the portrayals which gave force to those caricatures cooked up by bigoted hollywood producers, was the non-fictional coverage of the 9/11 attacks (and, before that, Iranian child soldiers being given prayerbooks and sent marching over minefields... beheadings in Saudi Arabia... the destruction of Buddha statues, and so on). It becomes leagues harder to condemn propagandists, even if that condemnation might be justified, when their half-truths are backed up by ongoing real-world horrors.
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Dec 10, 2015 22:59
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Oh yeah, shadow puppet masters CAIR with their vast influence in politics and the media
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Dec 10, 2015 23:09
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Mulva posted:My brother brought up a really good point last night when we were discussing this vis-à-vis Trumps poll bump from his Monday statements. He thinks a lot of this is Islamophobia is driven by the fact that Muslims are easily set apart from society by their dress and actions, and this makes it impossible for many Americans to assume that everyone they meet is just another version of them. that's not a good point, as it relies on stereotyping and racial discrimination. this is like saying that antisemitism is driven by broad brimmed hats and big noses. sorry that your brother is stupid
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Dec 10, 2015 23:26
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Popular Thug Drink posted:that's not a good point, as it relies on stereotyping and racial discrimination. this is like saying that antisemitism is driven by broad brimmed hats and big noses. sorry that your brother is stupid Also that, except for a specific subset of Muslim women (the ones who wear hijab), there's no such thing as "Islamic" clothing. I'm guessing the vast, vast majority of Muslims in the US dress in the exact same manner as anyone else.
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Dec 10, 2015 23:43
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PT6A posted:Also that, except for a specific subset of Muslim women (the ones who wear hijab), there's no such thing as "Islamic" clothing. I'm guessing the vast, vast majority of Muslims in the US dress in the exact same manner as anyone else. Except for Islamic clothing, there is no Islamic clothing.
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Dec 10, 2015 23:55
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Nonsense posted:Fredericksburg is for lovers Jesus cheist. Mulva posted:My brother brought up a really good point last night when we were discussing this vis-à-vis Trumps poll bump from his Monday statements. He thinks a lot of this is Islamophobia is driven by the fact that Muslims are easily set apart from society by their dress and actions, and this makes it impossible for many Americans to assume that everyone they meet is just another version of them. This reminds me of that old joke: Q: How do you know if somebody is a vegetarian? A: They'll tell you! (Except for all the ones that don't, giving you a false perception of them consisting solely of a very vocal minority) SMILLENNIALSMILLEN fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 00:01
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Liberal_L33t posted:In this particular case a not insignificant portion of the blame lies with the absolutely atrocious job that self-appointed spokespersons for Islam have been doing in the media. What do I mean by that? For starters, engaging in incessant victim-blaming (CAIR's press conference where they blamed the San Bernardino shootings on the killer having his beard made fun of made my blood boil and I'm no Trump supporter), aggressively hurling the label of Islamophobia against anyone who criticizes the doctrines or practices of the faith, vociferously rejecting the ideal of free speech (usually with mealy-mouthed talking points about "responsible speech", but sometimes outright rejecting free expression altogether), and, at the core of all this, a steadfast refusal to concede that there is anything about Islam itself that needs to be changed (as opposed to the actions or attitudes of individuals). Are you talking about this press conference from his attorny? Because I wouldn't say that you're characterizing those remarks very accurately at all. quote:Among other things, I think that apologists and spokespeople for Islamic communities in western nations need to immediately drop the argument that the latest batch of terrorists committed their crimes because they weren't devout enough, or because they weren't properly raised in a traditional Muslim household, or because they felt alienated from their faith somehow. Whether these arguments are true or not is debatable - but the media figures who make these arguments ought to realize that they really rub secular westerners the wrong way. Not only do they sometimes come across as a roundabout form of victim blaming, but these arguments send the message that the first priority of muslim organizations is protecting the good name of Islam itself (an institution, not a group of people) and winning the culture war against individualism. Such arguments telegraph an expectation that Islamic cultures will not and should not have to give up anything in the pursuit of integration. This sure is a lot of words without any specific examples of what you're talking about. quote:And as far as the rest of your post - I think you should acknowledge that the MOST damaging media and entertainment portrayals of muslims, the portrayals which gave force to those caricatures cooked up by bigoted hollywood producers, was the non-fictional coverage of the 9/11 attacks (and, before that, Iranian child soldiers being given prayerbooks and sent marching over minefields... beheadings in Saudi Arabia... the destruction of Buddha statues, and so on). It becomes leagues harder to condemn propagandists, even if that condemnation might be justified, when their half-truths are backed up by ongoing real-world horrors. Sure. But if there was an entire media channel and a political party dedicated to publicizing every heinous and evil thing done by Christians and claiming that every abortion clinic bomber in America, every group like Lord's Resistance Army in Africa and the people from Westboro Baptist Church were all part of a vast international conspiracy bent on seizing control of western civilization then you could probably stoke up some equally serious anti-Christian sentiment, especially if we imagine some bizzaro world universe where Christians aren't a religious majority. The fact is that the genuinely evil and heinous acts committed by Muslims aren't particular special or noteworthy in the grand scheme of things. It just happens to be the Muslims are committing their atrocities on a patch of real estate with a lot of geopolitical value to America and it's allies. With the resources of Fox News and the Republican Party and the larger conservative movement you could make just about any group look terrible by simply reporting all the stuff they do repeatedly.
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Dec 11, 2015 00:05
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Helsing posted:you could make just about any group look terrible by simply reporting all the stuff they do repeatedly.  Global Terrorism Index Report 2014, Institute for Economics and Peace
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Dec 11, 2015 00:27
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I mean you'd have to shoot up a fuckload of abortion clinics to make it as easy to get comparably mad at Christians. edit: I also know this has nothing really to do with domestic terrorism here I don't think there's any problem in the States, it's just that I think it's silly to pretend like you can just as easily make Christian Terrorists or whoever look as bad right now considering An Enormous Boner fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 00:30
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An Enormous Boner posted:I mean you'd have to shoot up a fuckload of abortion clinics to make it as easy to get comparably mad at Christians. It's really cute how how you cite statistics of how areas where there has been an ongoing socio-political implosion and disarray that's been going on for decades has violence in them, what a shock. Let me guess its not due to any geopolitical goings on or anything nuanced like that. These are also areas where I assure you western and eastern governments have had much bigger death counts under their belts either directly or indirectly through their proxies) is this proof that American Muslims should be eyed with suspicion? Also Helsing please don't waste your time with Liberal_L33t, he's a psycho who actually believes in military fascism, thinks denying democracy to entire people's in the Middle East is a good thing and has no problems with mass murder against innocent people because 'Muslims'. Someone without even a baseline of belief in human rights isn't worth your time. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 00:45
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blowfish posted:I'll just repeat myself and say that people are, have always been, and always will be idiots and assholes.  and like they're attempting to tell people "But I'm not one of them."I realize that probably wasn't your intention but this sentiment has kind of started to get under my skin. It's as useless as "thoughts and prayers" in the wake of people getting murdered.
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Dec 11, 2015 00:58
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Al-Saqr posted:It's really cute how how you cite statistics of how areas where there has been an ongoing socio-political implosion and disarray that's been going on for decades has violence in them, what a shock. Let me guess its not due to any geopolitical goings on or anything nuanced like that. These are also areas where I assure you western and eastern governments have had much bigger death counts under their belts either directly or indirectly through their proxies) Does that somehow make them not terrorist acts perpetrated by Islamist groups? Do they not count?
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Dec 11, 2015 00:59
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An Enormous Boner posted:Except for Islamic clothing, there is no Islamic clothing. You're right, there's obviously no racism against Muslim men nor against Muslim women who don't wear hijab. Trump's call was to ban all hijab-wearers only, right?
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Dec 11, 2015 00:59
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PT6A posted:You're right, there's obviously no racism against Muslim men nor against Muslim women who don't wear hijab. Trump's call was to ban all hijab-wearers only, right? My point was that you should have just kept the second sentence in the post I was responding to and dropped the first. An Enormous Boner fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 01:02
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Al-Saqr posted:It's really cute how how you cite statistics of how areas where there has been an ongoing socio-political implosion and disarray that's been going on for decades has violence in them, what a shock. Let me guess its not due to any geopolitical goings on or anything nuanced like that. These are also areas where I assure you western and eastern governments have had much bigger death counts under their belts either directly or indirectly through their proxies) is this proof that American Muslims should be eyed with suspicion? Criticizing Islam as a religion doesn't entail "suspecting" everyone who practices it. Please understand this, thread. Please
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Dec 11, 2015 01:23
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Average Bear posted:Criticizing Islam as a religion doesn't entail "suspecting" everyone who practices it. Please understand this, thread. Please well it would be nice if people would put forth some criticisms of islam rather than just generally ill founded bigotry "what, i can't criticise islam" is a synonym for "i'm not racist, but"
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Dec 11, 2015 01:26
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No it loving isn't.
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Dec 11, 2015 01:29
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Average Bear posted:No it loving isn't. The bad things about islam are pretty much the same bad things in christianity and judaism.
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Dec 11, 2015 01:31
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Average Bear posted:No it loving isn't. it's ok, there there. i know it hurts, realizing that there are no criticisms of islam that aren't just criticisms of various muslims you don't like for one reason or another. you'll get through this (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 11, 2015 01:33
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Also, I'd love to hear how criticising the religion of Islam (I mean the actual religion, not what's going on in conflict zones you don't have any clue about) justifies in any conceivable way making American Muslims targets of mass hatred, discrimination and racism, and how that prevents people from standing up for their fellow citizens.
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Dec 11, 2015 01:33
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Capn Payne posted a manifesto from ISIS to support his point that Islam has actual doctrine that can be used to radicalize people and people just hand waved that as bigotry. An actual Shi'ite posted his input on conservative Islam and no one responded because they couldn't just call him racist. Nobody can actually debate and learn anything here because dissenting opinions, rather than rebuked, are just dismissed with lower case posting.
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Dec 11, 2015 01:34
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Average Bear posted:Capn Payne posted a manifesto from ISIS to support his point that Islam has actual doctrine that can be used to radicalize people and people just hand waved that as bigotry. An actual Shi'ite posted his input on conservative Islam and no one responded because they couldn't just call him racist. Nobody can actually debate and learn anything here because dissenting opinions, rather than rebuked, are just dismissed with lower case posting. You think the others don't?
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Dec 11, 2015 01:35
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Popular Thug Drink posted:well it would be nice if people would put forth some criticisms of islam rather than just generally ill founded bigotry I think people have! The problem is, if you criticize scripture, people will correctly point out that scripture is often irrelevant to practice and the vast majority of Muslims don't support things like lopping off hands and stoning people. If you criticize abhorrent cultural practices done in the name of Islam with no justification from the Quran or hadith, people will rightly point out that it has nothing to do with Islam. There's no criticism that can't be handwaved away, it seems. I completely agree that the current level of Islamophobia in North America and Europe is worrying, to say the least, but I think it's unfair to say that no one has offered substantive criticism of Islamic practices. Of course, if you're looking for a criticism which applies to all Muslims, you will be unlikely to find one because every person practices their religion differently and comes from a different cultural background.
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Dec 11, 2015 01:35
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Al-Saqr posted:Also, I'd love to hear how criticising the religion of Islam (I mean the actual religion, not what's going on in conflict zones you don't have any clue about) justifies in any conceivable way making American Muslims targets of mass hatred, discrimination and racism. Where are you making this connection?!?!
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Dec 11, 2015 01:35
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Average Bear posted:Capn Payne posted a manifesto from ISIS to support his point that Islam has actual doctrine that can be used to radicalize people and people just hand waved that as bigotry. An actual Shi'ite posted his input on conservative Islam and no one responded because they couldn't just call him racist. Nobody can actually debate and learn anything here because dissenting opinions, rather than rebuked, are just dismissed with lower case posting. ah yes ISIS, pope of islam, demonstrates that islam is fundamentally bad i'm glad though that you took the brave step of voicing your disagreement with murder, torture, executions, sex slavery, etc. it was very brave of you to stand up and say, I am against the villans called ISIS PT6A posted:Of course, if you're looking for a criticism which applies to all Muslims, you will be unlikely to find one because every person practices their religion differently and comes from a different cultural background. yes, yes, keep going... and then what? don't stop now. what comes after you realize everyone practices islam differently and that religions are open to interpretation? boner confessor fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 01:36
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It would be really nice if criticisms of various elements of Islamic scripture or widespread practices weren't taken to the extreme where assholes paint "gently caress Muslims" all over a transit station. I don't think you can find a sane person who would disagree with that; even Hitchens or Dawkins.
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Dec 11, 2015 01:39
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PT6A posted:It would be really nice if criticisms of various elements of Islamic scripture or widespread practices weren't taken to the extreme where assholes paint "gently caress Muslims" all over a transit station. I don't think you can find a sane person who would disagree with that; even Hitchens or Dawkins. Yeah but only because gently caress Muslim culture would be too long to spray paint on a bus bench.
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Dec 11, 2015 01:40
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Popular Thug Drink posted:it's ok, there there. i know it hurts, realizing that there are no criticisms of islam that aren't just criticisms of various muslims you don't like for one reason or another. you'll get through this What are you doing?
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Dec 11, 2015 01:44
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Popular Thug Drink posted:yes, yes, keep going... and then what? don't stop now. what comes after you realize everyone practices islam differently and that religions are open to interpretation? So, because religions are open to interpretation and everyone follows slightly different practices, there can be no criticism of concepts which are reasonably widespread in the Islamic community and have some degree of support from either the Quran or hadith? You know you're setting an unreasonable standard, right? However, it should be very clear that any criticism of Islam (or any religion) does not by any stretch of the imagination apply to every single person that practices that faith. I can criticize large sections of the Catholic church for protecting a bunch of childfuckers as a matter of policy; that doesn't mean I'm criticizing any person who identifies as Catholic for promoting child abuse, or even blaming every person in the church hierarchy. Likewise, my disagreements with certain parts of the Qu'ran and hadith, and the actions of certain Muslims, should not be taken as evidence that I hold those things against every Muslim. Only a legitimate crazy person would do that (like Donald Trump).
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Dec 11, 2015 01:44
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Panzeh posted:The bad things about islam are pretty much the same bad things in christianity and judaism. In my opinion as a secular Jew, Islam has more going for than Judaism. The Torah is filled with stories about Jewish leaders being told to go and annihilate a civilization, subjugate the survivors and eliminate it's religion. Islam actually goes out of its way to recognize pre-existing monotheistic religions, explicitly calls them co-religionists, and mandates religious freedom.
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Dec 11, 2015 01:48
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Panzeh posted:The bad things about islam are pretty much the same bad things in christianity and judaism. And the funny thing is that there's a clear rhetorical double standard between Islam and those two, even if it involves otherwise hated people. Like, in the Freeper thread when those people act like monsters you'll see people say something to the effect of "those aren't real Christians!" even though they're performing exactly in line with some of the religious teachings of Christianity (yes, the Old Testament is part of your religious teachings or else you would have chucked it away already). Take that same sort of person, but make them Muslim. Now the response becomes "you can't say they're not a real Muslim, they're following the teachings of their religion!"
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Dec 11, 2015 01:52
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PT6A posted:So, because religions are open to interpretation and everyone follows slightly different practices, there can be no criticism of concepts which are reasonably widespread in the Islamic community and have some degree of support from either the Quran or hadith? so what widespread concepts do you find troubling
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Dec 11, 2015 01:54
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Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Religious conservatism is a minority in the west. It's a parasite I'd like to be rid of. In the shittier parts of the Middle East, it's a very strong political force, and the people living there suffer for it.
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Dec 11, 2015 01:55
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Average Bear posted:Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Religious conservatism is a minority in the west. Under what standard? The one where a Christian party rules in Germany, or the one where we just had a mass shooting at an abortion clinic in the US?
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Dec 11, 2015 01:58
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The "Christian" part of that party is vestigial. Most Christians aren't shooting up abortion clinics.
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Dec 11, 2015 02:01
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computer parts posted:And the funny thing is that there's a clear rhetorical double standard between Islam and those two, even if it involves otherwise hated people. Exactly this. There isn't really anything I could ever do to convince those people "It's not real Islam," Or whatever because their minds are pretty made up from whatever their interpretation of The Quran is(if they've even read it).
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Dec 11, 2015 02:01
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I think trying to say who is and isn't a "real" member of a religious group is a losing exercise, and it only gets more and more absurd as you approach denying or at least minimizing the religious conviction of someone who literally blows themselves and others up over it.
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Dec 11, 2015 02:01
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