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Blasphemeral posted:Some of the people of this thread are subtly expressing their frustration at the current state of society by suggesting anyone could be one of the paranoid freaks. That's cool. I just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed him openly discussing how great Donald Trump is or something.
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Dec 10, 2015 16:30
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Butcher was raised fundamentalist christian and it does show through in the books. Scientists are arrogant and narrow minded fools who just can't handle things outside their worldview, while somehow at the same time, religious faith is a humble, powerful thing that deserves utmost respect. It's a common strain of fundamentalist cognitive dissonance. More generally, the series has a pretty conservative bent. Harry loves his guns. The government tends to be corrupt and/or obstructionist. Still, Butcher does seem like a pretty chill guy. I would be shocked if he harbored some secret hatred for Muslims. A lot of his characters are kind of sketchy stock characters, but I think that comes down to the book's pulpiness and Butcher's shortcomings as a writer. I don't think it comes from Butcher having a particular racist worldview.
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Dec 10, 2015 16:48
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Wittgen posted:Butcher was raised fundamentalist christian and it does show through in the books. Scientists are arrogant and narrow minded fools who just can't handle things outside their worldview, while somehow at the same time, religious faith is a humble, powerful thing that deserves utmost respect. It's a common strain of fundamentalist cognitive dissonance. More generally, the series has a pretty conservative bent. Harry loves his guns. The government tends to be corrupt and/or obstructionist. On the other hand, religion is surprisingly cosmopolitan in the Dresden-verse. Instead of specifically needing a Christian crucifix to ward off a Black Court vampire, convicted faith in anything will do. Harry uses his fundamental belief in magic itself. When Christian angels show up they're treated pretty much like any other supernatural entity, maybe just a bit older than some of the other. Then there's Odin popping up too. So yeah, the Dresden Files treats religion and faith positively, but it's not an exclusively Fundamentalist Christian stance.
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Dec 10, 2015 16:53
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Gygaxian posted:Well, I'm a white Mormon from Utah, so you tell me. Okay, Im sure there are books for you that have a diverse cast and not a lot of "Tropey" things. But Dresden files is made out of tropes and was started by Jim literally using bad tropes his teacher told him not to use. This thread gets weird at times where we circle around "Dresden files is misogynistic" or "Dresden files has bad female representation". It gets a bit tiring and the arguments are getting old. I just like reading about a wizard throwing fireballs and putting in the occasional star wars quip.
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Dec 10, 2015 17:15
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Coming back to Dresden looking for a new book, and found the 'Dresden file' link in the op. Did I really gloss over all the books, or is the Harry in a sexual relationship with Thomas thing just a 'two people in a single bedroom apartment, yeah gay' thing?
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Dec 11, 2015 02:53
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It's a false assumption yes. Also because Thomas is an incubus.
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Dec 11, 2015 02:57
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At one point in White Night, Harry sneaks into Thomas' apartment to check on him. Security notices him and calls the cops, so Harry pretends he's Thomas' boyfriend so that they'll just throw him out without making legal trouble for burglary or whatnot. Harry's cop friends learn about this and give him poo poo about it. So, yeah, there actually was an incident where he told the Chicago PD that he and Thomas were an item. Khizan fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 03:04
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Wittgen posted:Butcher was raised fundamentalist christian and it does show through in the books. Scientists are arrogant and narrow minded fools who just can't handle things outside their worldview, while somehow at the same time, religious faith is a humble, powerful thing that deserves utmost respect. It's a common strain of fundamentalist cognitive dissonance. More generally, the series has a pretty conservative bent. Harry loves his guns. The government tends to be corrupt and/or obstructionist. I think you might just be finding what you wanted to find. Bob and Butters are scientists who are curious and inquisitive, Harry himself isn't above setting up experiments and studying magical and mundane subjects. Regular human scientists, just like any other non-magical humans are completely ignorant of the magical world because of how patently absurd it sounds to them just like it would to us if someone really did post an ad in the yellow pages as a wizard. This doesn't have to be a meta-commentary on scientists when its just a useful and quick way to handwave why 'muggles' haven't caught on yet. Religion in the Dresden Files is a double edged sword where gods and faith can either make you warrior-saint like Michael, a literal Jedi like Butters or it can completely gently caress you up turning you into a monstrous abomination like the Denarians, or lead you to despair, self loathing and suicide by demon-assasin Can't argue with "Harry loves his guns" but given the rate at which Dresden finds himself in mortal peril I don't think it's fair to hold that against him. Anybody would be glad to have a handcannon when they're being charged at by the monster-of-the-week.
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Dec 11, 2015 04:17
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Exmond posted:Okay, Im sure there are books for you that have a diverse cast and not a lot of "Tropey" things. But Dresden files is made out of tropes and was started by Jim literally using bad tropes his teacher told him not to use. Oh, sure, I love the Tropey and pulpy nature of the Dresden Files, I really do. I love the quips Harry does, and I don't even mind his "white knight" thing (though it really gets overemphasized at times). I really like Butters as a character, even though he's kind of like Weird Al as a mortician. I'm a big fan of Nicodemus, the Knights of the Cross, Marcone, and the fairies. I also really like the Kemmlerites as a whole, even though they're kind of pulpy as well. But I just think there's some bits where Butcher gets lazy with tropes and stereotypes. But when he rejects or tones down the stereotypes, I feel like his characters really pop. Like Shiro being an accidental Baptist. Or the Billy Goats Gruff with the Eldest being the smallest and friendliest. Or Sanya, the Black Russian atheist. I don't know about the "is Butcher a fundamentalist or pro-science" thing, I think if you equate wizards as scientists, he comes down on the side of science pretty well, though respectful towards religion (and considering Harry has met several god-like beings, he probably should be fairly respectful).
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Dec 11, 2015 04:43
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420 Gank Mid posted:I think you might just be finding what you wanted to find. Bob and Butters are scientists who are curious and inquisitive, Harry himself isn't above setting up experiments and studying magical and mundane subjects. Regular human scientists, just like any other non-magical humans are completely ignorant of the magical world because of how patently absurd it sounds to them just like it would to us if someone really did post an ad in the yellow pages as a wizard. This doesn't have to be a meta-commentary on scientists when its just a useful and quick way to handwave why 'muggles' haven't caught on yet. It's not a meta-commentary. It's a commentary. Dresden literally spends pages ranting to Butters about how people are too narrow minded and arrogant to accept that maybe magic exists. But when a religious person believes what they believes no matter the evidence, that's noble. The whole "people believe what they want to" was a quick hand wave of muggles not catching on in Buffy, but in the Dresden files, there's a lot more "these sheeple are deluding themselves." To be clear, I'm not saying that the books are somehow secretly fundamentalist Christian screeds. I'm just saying that this element of the books clearly shows the influences of Butcher's fundamentalist upbringing. It's not the specifics so much as a general mindset which matches up pretty well.
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Dec 11, 2015 09:41
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Wittgen posted:It's not a meta-commentary. It's a commentary. Dresden literally spends pages ranting to Butters about how people are too narrow minded and arrogant to accept that maybe magic exists. But when a religious person believes what they believes no matter the evidence, that's noble. The whole "people believe what they want to" was a quick hand wave of muggles not catching on in Buffy, but in the Dresden files, there's a lot more "these sheeple are deluding themselves." Fair enough, but its not like Dresden/Butcher has some kind of vendetta against science or rationalism. Also it's hard to argue that a character like Michael still even has faith. You'd have to be a deaf blind idiot to live the life he has had and still hold any rational doubt about the existence of a higher power at your back who rewards you for living your life up to certain standards of behavior. You know... "God" stuff Sidenote: my one big gripe about religion in the Dresdenverse is why Sanya has always had the most nonsensical character gimmick of being an atheist/agnostic ex-Denarian and Knight. Sure he can argue that he doesn't know for sure if the divine providence he experiences multiple times a day is actually an intelligent nigh-omnipotent being, or he could say that that being doesn't have to be the central figure of any human religious mythology, but at that point he's just gotten to obnoxious amounts of semantics.
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Dec 11, 2015 11:15
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Again, I'm not saying anything as extreme as Butcher having a vendetta against science. I'm saying he has a bad conception of science, and since it's bad in the same way fundamentalist's conception of science is bad and he was raised a fundamentalist, it's pretty easy to see where it came from. Specifically, it's clear that he thinks scientists reject supernatural claims out of narrow mindedness or arrogance or some inability to cope with facts that don't fit their worldview. People do reject claims for these reasons. Humans are generally bad at changing their beliefs. But scientists are better at changing their beliefs about the world, not worse. This is kind of complicated by the fact that magic is real in the world of these books, but then again, isn't that the crux of the issue? Everything I've seen makes it seem like Butcher honestly believes that if magic did exist, scientists wouldn't believe in it. This is completely false. If magic existed, scientists would believe in it full stop. I think Sanya is totally justified in not having faith in the "white god." It's clear that human will has profound power in the Dresdenverse, and worship is willful. Other gods also clearly exist. If I was in Dresdenverse, I would believe that there were was a powerful magical being that corresponded to the Christian God, but I wouldn't have faith in him like Michael does. I wouldn't worship him. I wouldn't believe whole heartedly he was an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient person who was utterly good and loving and the only hope for my soul but also would infinitely torture me if I messed up. I'd think he was a big magical faith battery.
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Dec 11, 2015 11:50
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420 Gank Mid posted:Fair enough, but its not like Dresden/Butcher has some kind of vendetta against science or rationalism. Well maybe not science but against a skeptical outlook and rationalism... Maybe. It's also hard to keep the character of Dresden separate from the author but as a reminder the one "skeptic" character the series has had was a literal monster.
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Dec 11, 2015 12:46
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Sorry to derail the religion chat but I've been relistening to the audio books and while listening to Changes something stood out. spoiled for Changes major plot point and ending. When the Eebs kidnap Harry, while they think he is knocked out they mention the red king will never promote them to lords of outer night because they are not of the first Mya. Does this mean that they are a different bloodline and not subject to the bloodline curse that wiped out the red court? They also were in the never never (with the Erl king) did Jim say if they show up again? It is constantly mentioned in the book they are long term planners not quick to action. Oroborus fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Dec 12, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 14:20
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Your spoiler tags didn't work, fyi
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Dec 11, 2015 14:34
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Oroborus posted:Sorry to derail the religion chat but I've been relistening to the audio books and while listening to Changes something stood out. I'm not sure what etiquette is for older works, so I'm spoiling just in case. I think it means they were not of a particular ruling class of the Mayan before they were turned. It's more a prejudice of their *human* sides cultural background, not the lineage of the vampire that turned them. All vampires are directly related to the Red King. And remember, it was only the vampiric part that was destroyed by the curse. It specifically mentions that most crumble to dust because of the sudden accumulation of age. There were still some that reverted to completely human after the curse because they were young enough. Plus the Eebs were last seen being swarmed by goblins. They dead. And if not, I don't think you can dodge curses by being Faerie.
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Dec 11, 2015 14:34
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flosofl posted:Plus the Eebs were last seen being swarmed by goblins. They dead. And if not, I don't think you can dodge curses by being Faerie. Counterpoint: Which is more likely, that the Eebs are one-off villains who get unceremoniously killed "offscreen", or that they show up later down the line hungry for vengeance at the worst possible moment for Harry? Of course they're still alive.
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Dec 11, 2015 15:01
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The Eebs are Spanish conquistadors, they aren't Mayan at all. Their point was that if you don't look like an 85 IQ Guatemalan peasant you can't reach the highest levels of the Red Court. Human racism, not magical bloodline stuff.
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Dec 11, 2015 15:46
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Wittgen posted:Again, I'm not saying anything as extreme as Butcher having a vendetta against science. I'm saying he has a bad conception of science, and since it's bad in the same way fundamentalist's conception of science is bad and he was raised a fundamentalist, it's pretty easy to see where it came from. Specifically, it's clear that he thinks scientists reject supernatural claims out of narrow mindedness or arrogance or some inability to cope with facts that don't fit their worldview. People do reject claims for these reasons. Humans are generally bad at changing their beliefs. But scientists are better at changing their beliefs about the world, not worse. I thought the stuff about scientists (which is really only in the first couple books) was mostly a not-very-serious World of Darkness reference. I don't think Butcher is actually anti-science.
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Dec 11, 2015 18:11
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Exmond posted:This thread gets weird at times where we circle around "Dresden files is misogynistic" or "Dresden files has bad female representation". It gets a bit tiring and the arguments are getting old. It's sort of weird to say that because Dresden Files itself deals with those issues. You can argue it deals with them poorly but it is a literal ongoing oft-mentioned plot point that one of Harry's flaws is that he's got women issues. If the author wants to bring up the idea then you kind of can't avoid talking about it because it is part of the book. When Harry has a weird conversation about gay people with a fairy queen then you can't really avoid going "wait, what about gay representation in Dresden?" after that.
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Dec 11, 2015 18:35
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ImpAtom posted:It's sort of weird to say that because Dresden Files itself deals with those issues. You can argue it deals with them poorly but it is a literal ongoing oft-mentioned plot point that one of Harry's flaws is that he's got women issues. If the author wants to bring up the idea then you kind of can't avoid talking about it because it is part of the book. Eh, I don't really see him bring it up. Harry dealing with women in an chivalry-first/proper manners doesn't seem to be misogynistic to me. Can someone explain what "Death of the author" means? I feel like the way I read books is either along that path, or against I. I don't consider harry's actions to be Jim Butchers actions, if that helps.
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Dec 11, 2015 18:58
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Exmond posted:Eh, I don't really see him bring it up. Harry dealing with women in an chivalry-first/proper manners doesn't seem to be misogynistic to me. Characters literally call him a misogynistic pig for doing it. There's some element of humor to it but it's also clear that it's an actual 'thing' too. The latest book has his trusted friend pointing out how Harry's behavior has changed and he isn't treating Murphy in that way anymore while framing it as a positive. This doesn't mean it is Butcher's viewpoint but the fact that Butcher is introducing this invites discussion about what the book is saying and presenting. If a character goes "this character is misogynistic" then the end result is that it invites the question "are they right?" That doesn't necessarily mean that Butcher is saying that but books can also say things without the author intentionally meaning to. It also doesn't mean you should be a dick and go "Jim Butcher hates women, the scummy pig!!" or anything.
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Dec 11, 2015 19:05
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Exmond posted:Eh, I don't really see him bring it up. Harry dealing with women in an chivalry-first/proper manners doesn't seem to be misogynistic to me. Death of the author means that what an author intends to get across in their work is not the only valid interpretation of that work. For example, Tolkien might not have been a racist but his LOTR stuff uses much of the same rhetoric and imagery as literal white supremacists, so it's not strange to see them latch onto it.
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Dec 11, 2015 19:50
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jivjov posted:On the other hand, religion is surprisingly cosmopolitan in the Dresden-verse. Instead of specifically needing a Christian crucifix to ward off a Black Court vampire, convicted faith in anything will do. Harry uses his fundamental belief in magic itself. When Christian angels show up they're treated pretty much like any other supernatural entity, maybe just a bit older than some of the other. Then there's Odin popping up too. At some point I hope someone writes an article about the Catholic Church in fantasy. Whenever authors need an exorcist or a Real Priest, they're always a catholic, even when the author's own background isn't.
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Dec 11, 2015 20:01
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:At some point I hope someone writes an article about the Catholic Church in fantasy. Whenever authors need an exorcist or a Real Priest, they're always a catholic, even when the author's own background isn't. I am tangentially reminded of the wonderful scene in Paul Cornell's London Falling where the police bring in various clergy to try to get hold of some holy water, and none of the clergy in question (I believe a C of E vicar, a rabbi and an imam) are at all impressed. (No idea if that needed spoiling but I like to err on the side of caution, and also to make my posts read like a redacted CIA document.)
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Dec 11, 2015 20:07
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:At some point I hope someone writes an article about the Catholic Church in fantasy. Whenever authors need an exorcist or a Real Priest, they're always a catholic, even when the author's own background isn't. There's also the historical background for the other side of the matter: local folklore and myths and superstitions a lot of standard fantasy tropes is based on has been actively fought and suppressed by the Catholics, often turned into a straight good/evil dichotomy: think vampires and crosses. The story is already there, it's played, told and taught and we're all just tapping into it. docbeard posted:I am tangentially reminded of the wonderful scene in Paul Cornell's London Falling where the police bring in various clergy to try to get hold of some holy water, and none of the clergy in question (I believe a C of E vicar, a rabbi and an imam) are at all impressed.
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Dec 11, 2015 20:51
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anilEhilated posted:I think it's the tradition. These guys had two thousand years of continued existence, defined a huge part of European history and have a super freakin' stylish and mysterious HQ in the Vatican and is hypothetical coffers full of who-knows-what secrets - if anyone knows what's up with the God business, it's gotta be them, right? That's all part of it certainly, and there are narrative conventions too, but I think it's also that Catholicism televised well. All those high church rituals and stained glass and ornate vestments. Catholicism is a very theatrical religion with lots of rituals that write scenes themselves. You want to do an exorcism? The Catholics have the screenplay already written out for you.. Nuns, too. And well established charities, so you can have poor orphans etc.
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Dec 11, 2015 20:58
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All that stuff is why I don't think it's that interesting that Catholicism is the 'default fantasy Christianity'. It has the pageantry and the history and the story. What else are they going to use? Generic American Protestantism? Anglican stuff? That weird Pentecostal tongue-speaker poo poo? None of that would play half as well as Catholicism does.
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Dec 11, 2015 22:45
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Exmond posted:Eh, I don't really see him bring it up. Harry dealing with women in an chivalry-first/proper manners doesn't seem to be misogynistic to me. The argument for it being misogynistic is saying that it stems from a "women are helpless and need to be protected" mentality. What you make of that is what you make of it (and I'm intentionally making no commentary on whether I think the argument is right or not because I really, really don't want that derail, and please, please folks don't start that derail), I just wanted to explain the reasoning behind the idea that Harry's chivalry-first stuff is misogynistic. Right or wrong that's where the idea comes from, as best I know. Magres fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 22:55
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Khizan posted:All that stuff is why I don't think it's that interesting that Catholicism is the 'default fantasy Christianity'. It has the pageantry and the history and the story. What else are they going to use? Generic American Protestantism? Anglican stuff? That weird Pentecostal tongue-speaker poo poo? None of that would play half as well as Catholicism does. Plus, I'm pretty sure the Rite of Exorcism is still considered a sacramental act in the Roman Catholic Church (but not an actual sacrament itself).
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Dec 11, 2015 23:14
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That kind of thing is part of what I meant by 'pageantry'. The liturgy, the Latin Mass, rites of exorcism, the vestments, the churches, it's all very picturesque. That aside, the Catholic buildings are just cooler. I mean, the Catholic church around here is an old stone building with the steeple and a bell and old wood floors, and it's called Saint Victor's. The Methodist church is a big box with metal siding and that industrial carpet flooring. It's called "Townname Methodist Church". St Victor's is the kind of place where you'd prepare to face a vampire. Townname Methodist is where you'd go for a bake sale
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Dec 12, 2015 00:06
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Jim butcher being a white midwesterner attempting to write a series set in an actual, diverse, multicultural city and attempting to write characters who aren't white midwestern Christians is not a sin. But uuhhh it's okay to admit that he's really not the best person suited for it, and these pulpy books have flaws. Please think of what the future will say about your post history on somethingawful, when it comes to light that you wrote 10000 words defending Harry Dresden's latest 2 page description of a woman that fails to mention anything besides what she's wearing and how her figure looks in it.
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Dec 12, 2015 02:53
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Gilok posted:Your spoiler tags didn't work, fyi Incredibly sorry for any new readers, posted before i ran to work should have checked.
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Dec 12, 2015 03:28
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Up Circle posted:Please think of what the future will say about your post history on somethingawful, when it comes to light that you wrote 10000 words defending Harry Dresden's latest 2 page description of a woman that fails to mention anything besides what she's wearing and how her figure looks in it. I'm actually willing to give Butcher the benefit of the doubt there, since I don't remember the character descriptions in Codex Alera being like that.
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Dec 12, 2015 04:21
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Silver2195 posted:I'm actually willing to give Butcher the benefit of the doubt there, since I don't remember the character descriptions in Codex Alera being like that. None of the other DF pov characters or the Cinder Spires do either. It's just Dresden.
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Dec 12, 2015 06:10
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It's an interesting dichotomy. Harry Dresden is a huge goon who looks at tits and asses and that's what he notices and mentally comments on. It is obvious from Butcher's other POV characters (both in Dresden and out) that he can write characters that don't do this, and from there we can extrapolate that Butcher doesn't treat women like Harry Dresden's male gaze would suggest. But...it's still a whole lot of boobs and butt talk every time that Harry meets or re-encounters a female character.
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Dec 12, 2015 06:17
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flosofl posted:Plus, I'm pretty sure the Rite of Exorcism is still considered a sacramental act in the Roman Catholic Church (but not an actual sacrament itself).
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Dec 12, 2015 10:43
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flosofl posted:Plus the Eebs were last seen being swarmed by goblins. They dead. And if not, I don't think you can dodge curses by being Faerie. Actually, wasn't there a situation where Harry said he actually could dodge a curse by hiding in the Nevernever? I seem to recall that.
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Dec 12, 2015 12:10
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Vicissitude posted:Actually, wasn't there a situation where Harry said he actually could dodge a curse by hiding in the Nevernever? I seem to recall that. Yes. I cannot remember which book it was, but When Elaine and one of the fairie ladies had captured him in the Nevernever, Elaine used the fact that he couldn't death curse them if they left the Nevernever to get everyone to leave so Harry could escape. Plus, there is a spot or two somewhere else where he says he could, but risking an unknown jump into the Nevernever at the time was an absolute last resort. I think the first time he said it, his Godmother was still after him as well so he definitely didn't want to do it. I don't think it works on everything, but it is possible. Really risky and hard to do though.
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Dec 12, 2015 19:39
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Right, right, and it would also foil tracking spells, but something with a more potent connection would probably leap the veil and get him anyway.
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Dec 12, 2015 22:26
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