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fart blood posted:This whole thing is so absurd. Obviously Abigail Fisher sucks and I hope she loses, but there's a good reason people are allowed to sue in constitutional cases like this even if the issue is moot by the time it reaches the Supreme Court, and that reason is Roe v Wade. If you lose standing the instant enough time passes for a remedy to be impossible, then women can never challenge state abortion restrictions ever because you ain't getting before the Supreme Court in less than 9 months.
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Dec 11, 2015 17:53
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So this all basically began because a mediocre white person demanded admission to the school that turned her down because they had a policy of evaluating people on qualities beyond SAT/ACT/GPA and somewhere along the line someone with This bullshit about schools having to exclude non-academic factors is like poo poo the stereotypical libertarian systems "engineer" yaps about while he's handling service tickets all day. Universities are incubators of culture too, but I guess STEM are the only things worth going to school for.
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Dec 11, 2015 21:39
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Hey if you can't point to a meritocractic, objectively measurable and independently responsible factor for my selection/non-selection, I should be able to sue because that's reverse discrimination. What do you mean the school I went to has a much higher per-capita budget, teaching staff and facilities so that means the guy that got the same grades as me is more deserving? I can't control the school I went to! It's not my fault I had advantages which managed to propel me to the same testing levels as some darkie! Why should he get the place instead of me?
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Dec 12, 2015 03:25
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SedanChair posted:What kind of personality does Kennedy have? I only ever get the impression that he is a simpleton who is titillated by the historical significance of his own cowardice and lack of principles. I don't think it's entirely appropriate to call any of the Supreme Court justices simpletons. (That's why Harriet Miers didn't get confirmed!  )He's certainly pretty boring outside of the SC. Big on prison reform but does absolutely nothing else interesting.
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Dec 12, 2015 03:58
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MrNemo posted:What do you mean the school I went to has a much higher per-capita budget, teaching staff and facilities so that means the guy that got the same grades as me is more deserving? I can't control the school I went to! It's not my fault I had advantages which managed to propel me to the same testing levels as some darkie! Why should he get the place instead of me? - Justice Scalia, responding on petitioner's behalf. GreyjoyBastard posted:I don't think it's entirely appropriate to call any of the Supreme Court justices simpletons. (That's why Harriet Miers didn't get confirmed! He teaches law courses in Austria between sessions, according to Wiki. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Dec 12, 2015 |
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Dec 12, 2015 04:12
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fart blood posted:This whole thing is so absurd. Interestingly I'm sure the discourse about the potential consequences was very similar since at the time quotas were pretty much the only form of affirmative action. If Fisher wins I imagine you'll see something similar to post prop-209 California -- race-conscious admissions have been technically illegal here since the 90s, but the public universities still maintain offices of affirmative action. They just focus on stuff like outreach efforts while the admissions committees use fuzzier admissions criteria such as heavily weighting an essay prompt about how you've overcome adversity in your life circumstances.
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Dec 12, 2015 10:41
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ShadowHawk posted:Well it worked for Bakke, who ended up attending UC Davis law school after suing in exactly the same fashion. This is basically what I think. Universities generally want to be more diverse (and the ones that don't probably aren't using AA anyway so this case doesn't affect them), and college admissions have enough subjectivity in them and big enough applicant pools that you could easily meet diversity targets without straying too far from the hard numbers and without having an official affirmative action policy.
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Dec 12, 2015 16:24
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Haven't minority student populations at UC schools fallen though?
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Dec 12, 2015 16:26
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Not sure universities give a poo poo about diversity outside of AA being foisted on them.
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Dec 12, 2015 16:41
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Badger of Basra posted:Haven't minority student populations at UC schools fallen though? It shifted around - more Chinese and less poorer minorities is the trend I remember. I think white actually remained mostly the same - there was some local joke that support for ending affirmative action dropped somewhat when (white) people realized that it wouldn't actually mean more white students. I'm not sure about american-born Chinese vs PRC vs Taiwan though, so an increase in foreign students could be hiding in the data. http://www.cpec.ca.gov/StudentData/StudentSnapshot.ASP?DataReport=UCEth http://opa.berkeley.edu/uc-berkeley-fall-enrollment-data
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Dec 12, 2015 16:41
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shrike82 posted:Not sure universities give a poo poo about diversity outside of AA being foisted on them. I know promoting women in engineering is a big thing right now, but when the average gender ratio is about 80% men, that's fairly understandable.
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Dec 12, 2015 16:43
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shrike82 posted:Not sure universities give a poo poo about diversity outside of AA being foisted on them. It probably varies from admissions department to admissions department but I would guess that they do, especially since affirmative action has never been required to my knowledge, only permitted, and that private schools are pretty much wholly unaffected by this jurisprudence (though a policy shift in public schools certainly bears on them, it just doesn't bind them).
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Dec 12, 2015 16:47
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shrike82 posted:Not sure universities give a poo poo about diversity outside of AA being foisted on them. Did you know that many universities in states that have explicitly banned AA still practice it as closely as they can? Not everyone is a bigot, Friend. Also I just learned the same man, stockbroker Edward Blum, that bankrolled Shelby County is bankrolling Fisher. He's apparently launched dozens of similar cases over the years. What a horrid human being.
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Dec 12, 2015 16:51
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shrike82 posted:Not sure universities give a poo poo about diversity outside of AA being foisted on them. They do if the football team walks out!
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Dec 12, 2015 16:51
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AA has been illegal for Michigan public schools for a few years now, and Black enrollment in particular is in a death spiral right now at the U of M. The university has been steadily piling on tuition costs for years, and if you combine that with the ludicrous housing market in Ann Arbor, you end up with a school that is pretty clearly trying to attract the rich white kids from Grosse Pointe and West Bloomfield and doing its level best to keep Black kids from Detroit out.
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Dec 12, 2015 17:40
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Welp nevermind then, I guess my experiences were not the norm
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Dec 12, 2015 17:46
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Bel_Canto posted:AA has been illegal for Michigan public schools for a few years now, and Black enrollment in particular is in a death spiral right now at the U of M. The university has been steadily piling on tuition costs for years, and if you combine that with the ludicrous housing market in Ann Arbor, you end up with a school that is pretty clearly trying to attract the rich white kids from Grosse Pointe and West Bloomfield and doing its level best to keep Black kids from Detroit out. This is interesting, especially since if I recall correctly a lot of the drive for the statewide ban (which I think was also a referendum versus legislative action) was a lot of grousing about out of staters.
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Dec 12, 2015 18:16
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I bet there are at least a few college administrators who wish they could do straight up quotas. It would make accommodating the demands of the recent campus protests a lot easier.shrike82 posted:Not sure universities give a poo poo about diversity outside of AA being foisted on them. Also I'm pretty sure most AA programs are voluntary. UT isn't going to be happy if theirs gets taken away.
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Dec 12, 2015 18:37
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There are definitely SOME universities who legit care about student diversity, probably because they recognize that it's good for business. Probably a minority of them though.
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Dec 12, 2015 18:40
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How is it good for business? I guess schools could spin international students paying out of state fees as a form of diversity but I doubt that's what people mean by it,
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Dec 12, 2015 18:43
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alnilam posted:There are definitely SOME universities who legit care about student diversity, probably because they recognize that it's good for business. Probably a minority of them though. Or, less cynically, people in the field of education administration are genuinely interested in the effective administration of education. The research is pretty clear that A) race is one of the factors that is useful to consider when identifying the students that would receive the greatest marginal benefit of admission, and B) a diverse student body is good for everybody. Insulating white kids in segregated enclaves manufactures graduates that don't know how to work or interact with people who don't look like them. Plus, younger generations actually value diversity, so a diverse student body is value proposition. This is a pretty radical change from previous generations (see: any story on educational desegregation for the past 100 years).
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Dec 12, 2015 18:55
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Again, there's a lot of false assumptions being made e.g., younger people being in favor of diversity/AA. Haven't there been surveys showing skepticism on the part of millennials about AA? A survey conducted by MTV asked 3,000 Millennials ages 14 to 24 their thoughts on race-related issues, including affirmative action for college acceptance, in May. And what it found was seemingly paradoxical: 90 percent of Millennials surveyed “believe that everyone should be treated the same regardless of race,” yet 88 percent opposed affirmative action.
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Dec 12, 2015 19:04
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shrike82 posted:Again, there's a lot of false assumptions being made e.g., younger people being in favor of diversity/AA.  That's not paradoxical though. Plenty of people see AA as being a leg-up and not an equalizer and for those people believing in equality while being against AA is a consistent viewpoint.
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Dec 12, 2015 19:16
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Yeah, I'd be extremely hesitant about putting forward a narrative where younger generations are more likely to value diversity, or even if they do, to support policy. If anything, younger Millennials seem less likely to be on board with tangible efforts to further diversity. Then again, surveying (in part) fourteen year olds seems like a great way to generate noise. Of course, it's not a coincidence that the whole conversation has to be framed around diversity.
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Dec 12, 2015 19:18
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Evil Fluffy posted:
Given that I still hear people talk about AA in terms of quotas, such attitudes are not surprising. I don't think I could trust an MTV poll to represent educated views on the topic. UTs form of AA could easily be replaced but would always have to walk a delicate line in terms of reporting that is unnecessary and burdensome.
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Dec 12, 2015 19:26
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It'd be cool to see the fallout of AA being killed in university campuses/admissions in terms of seeing the student demo changes. Obviously the black population would go down but there'd be second order effects on stuff like Asians.
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Dec 12, 2015 19:27
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Forever_Peace posted:B) a diverse student body is good for everybody. Insulating white kids in segregated enclaves manufactures graduates that don't know how to work or interact with people who don't look like them. And again, this is what's pushed a lot in engineering education these days. A side effect of globalization is the idea that you'll have to meet and interact with people from around the globe.
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Dec 12, 2015 19:30
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Aren't STEM programs heavy on Chinese and Indians? Again, what are people defining as diversity?
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Dec 12, 2015 19:31
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shrike82 posted:Aren't STEM programs heavy on Chinese and Indians? Again, what are people defining as diversity? It depends heavily on the school, the program, and what exactly you mean by STEM. Typically for engineering there's decent non-white representation, but very little traditional minority representation (i.e., black & Hispanic), and abysmal gender ratios. In more pure science fields there's a better gender ratio but traditional minorities are still kinda hosed.
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Dec 12, 2015 19:36
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shrike82 posted:It'd be cool to see the fallout of AA being killed in university campuses/admissions in terms of seeing the student demo changes. Not really sure "cool" is the word. shrike82 posted:Aren't STEM programs heavy on Chinese and Indians? Again, what are people defining as diversity? Typically, race-conscious programs are targeted at what schools call "underrepresented minorities," which can vary a lot based on how particularized schools are willing to get (some are more particularized than others). For example, Asian Americans may not be included, but if a school digs deeper it may include Vietnamese and Hmong-descent applicants. Hispanic applicants may be included broadly, but similarly if broken down further Cuban-Americans may not be included.
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Dec 12, 2015 19:43
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Badger of Basra posted:I bet there are at least a few college administrators who wish they could do straight up quotas. It would make accommodating the demands of the recent campus protests a lot easier. It's really easy to imagine a future where AA is banned and yet colleges are harangued (including by people who were against AA!) for a lack of diversity.
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Dec 12, 2015 20:45
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Bel_Canto posted:AA has been illegal for Michigan public schools for a few years now, and Black enrollment in particular is in a death spiral right now at the U of M. The university has been steadily piling on tuition costs for years, and if you combine that with the ludicrous housing market in Ann Arbor, you end up with a school that is pretty clearly trying to attract the rich white kids from Grosse Pointe and West Bloomfield and doing its level best to keep Black kids from Detroit out. Uh, how exactly is it in a death spiral when it's remained almost unchanged? Now while I'd prefer U of M's numbers be different (less white) than what they are, the numbers don't exactly bear out your assertion. And again, how exactly is Ann Arbor's housing and rental prices, already historically one of the highest in Michigan and with the financial crash driving up rental prices across almost the entire country, the machinations of the school to keep blacks out? Rising tuition price is not just a thing at Michigan, it's endemic to higher ed as a whole. Now while it's just the public face, Michigan makes a good front of diversity and inclusion, and my interaction with the school and staff lead me to give them the benefit of the doubt. Especially when compared to your wild claims that don't stand up to scrutiny.
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Dec 16, 2015 09:53
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The Warszawa posted:Yeah, I'd be extremely hesitant about putting forward a narrative where younger generations are more likely to value diversity, or even if they do, to support policy. If anything, younger Millennials seem less likely to be on board with tangible efforts to further diversity. It doesn't help that school segregation has been increasing recently: you've got a bunch of white kids who have never been around a black kid being polled.
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Dec 16, 2015 14:09
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:It doesn't help that school segregation has been increasing recently: you've got a bunch of white kids who have never been around a black kid being polled. I wonder how the polling now would compare to the 50s (pre-desegregation) and 70s, i.e., does resegregating impact opinion.
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Dec 16, 2015 14:47
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OniPanda posted:Uh, how exactly is it in a death spiral when it's remained almost unchanged? Now while I'd prefer U of M's numbers be different (less white) than what they are, the numbers don't exactly bear out your assertion. And again, how exactly is Ann Arbor's housing and rental prices, already historically one of the highest in Michigan and with the financial crash driving up rental prices across almost the entire country, the machinations of the school to keep blacks out? Rising tuition price is not just a thing at Michigan, it's endemic to higher ed as a whole. Dude, a drop from 7.2% of the student body to steadily below 5% is not "staying the same." And the university is perfectly able but not willing to push for better enforcement of tenant laws, and has insisted on adding mandatory meal plans to the cost of living in university housing, making that a lovely option for poor students, a disproportionate number of which are students of color. I've lived here for three and a half years now and repeatedly spoken to members of admissions: they're admitting plenty of Black students, but enrollment has tumbled disproportionately to the drop in admissions.
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Dec 20, 2015 21:23
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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/07/us/top-alabama-judge-orders-halt-to-same-sex-marriage-licenses.htmlquote:ATLANTA — The chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court, Roy S. Moore, on Wednesday ordered probate judges in the state not to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, a move that could cloud the carrying out of the United States Supreme Court decision that legalized same-sex unions.
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Jan 7, 2016 00:35
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Luther Strange sounds like a name you'd run across in a goddamn Kojima game.
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Jan 7, 2016 00:42
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/07/us/top-alabama-judge-orders-halt-to-same-sex-marriage-licenses.html This is just weird, because I'm not sure what ability the Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court actually has to order Probate Judges to do anything. Yes, he technically oversees the entire court system, but Probate Judges are elected officials, and they don't serve at the pleasure of the Chief Justice, they serve six year terms unless impeached. So, if they disobey Roy Moore's order, what's the consequence. He can't do anything about it. I suppose Roy Moore could file a complaint with the state ethics commission if probate judges disobey him, but that seems unlikely, given that last time Roy Moore tried to stand up to a federal court order the state ethics commission removed him from office.
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Jan 8, 2016 01:39
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Not My Leg posted:This is just weird, because I'm not sure what ability the Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court actually has to order Probate Judges to do anything. Yes, he technically oversees the entire court system, but Probate Judges are elected officials, and they don't serve at the pleasure of the Chief Justice, they serve six year terms unless impeached. So, if they disobey Roy Moore's order, what's the consequence. He can't do anything about it. Upon looking this up, I have learned that Alabama probate judges do not need to be lawyers. Ok then.
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Jan 8, 2016 02:03
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eviltastic posted:Upon looking this up, I have learned that Alabama probate judges do not need to be lawyers. Ok then. Neither do federal judges, including US Supreme Court justices, technically. (All of the Supreme Court justices have been - I can't say for sure if all district/circuit court judges have.)
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Jan 8, 2016 02:19
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