Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Alligator Horse
Mar 23, 2013

QuoProQuid posted:

Now someone just needs to make a musical about Henry Clay or Daniel Webster.

The Great Triumviroverrated.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

1994 Toyota Celica
Sep 11, 2008

by Nyc_Tattoo

Tao Jones posted:

ugh I'm just going to write in William Pitt for president as a protest vote, adams is literally caesar

if you're writing in Pitt I'm writing in that charismatic new First Consul of France

karmicknight
Aug 21, 2011

QuoProQuid posted:

The real reason I started this thread was to get a bunch of goons really into musical theatre.

Now someone just needs to make a musical about Henry Clay or Daniel Webster.

I would love the poo poo out of a "gently caress Andrew Jackson" musical.

Yoshifan823
Feb 19, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

karmicknight posted:

I would love the poo poo out of a "gently caress Andrew Jackson" musical.

Ironically enough...

Though I guess based on the wiki summary it's slightly less "gently caress Andrew Jackson" and more "He was probably a bad guy but what if he's not entirely terrible?"

foobardog
Apr 19, 2007

There, now I can tell when you're posting.

-- A friend :)

karmicknight posted:

I would love the poo poo out of a "gently caress Andrew Jackson" musical.

I am from North Carolina originally, so there are three Presidents born there, arguably. Jackson is arguable, because he was born near the border, and claimed to be from the South Carolina side, but legend has it was the North Carolina side. The other two are Polk and Andrew Johnson. So yes, my state is responsible for some of the worst presidents. Of course, every last one of these bastards hosed off to Tennessee for their political careers, but still...

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

foobardog posted:

I am from North Carolina originally, so there are three Presidents born there, arguably. Jackson is arguable, because he was born near the border, and claimed to be from the South Carolina side, but legend has it was the North Carolina side. The other two are Polk and Andrew Johnson. So yes, my state is responsible for some of the worst presidents. Of course, every last one of these bastards hosed off to Tennessee for their political careers, but still...

Hey don't spoil elections that haven't happened yet :mad:

Bryter
Nov 6, 2011

but since we are small we may-
uh, we may be the losers

foobardog posted:

I am from North Carolina originally, so there are three Presidents born there, arguably. Jackson is arguable, because he was born near the border, and claimed to be from the South Carolina side, but legend has it was the North Carolina side. The other two are Polk and Andrew Johnson. So yes, my state is responsible for some of the worst presidents. Of course, every last one of these bastards hosed off to Tennessee for their political careers, but still...
Could be worse. Could be Ohio.

Rogue Copter Pilot
Apr 12, 2005

a dead whale or a stove boat

Yoshifan823 posted:

Ironically enough...

Though I guess based on the wiki summary it's slightly less "gently caress Andrew Jackson" and more "He was probably a bad guy but what if he's not entirely terrible?"

I was in this over the summer. I got to be VP Martin Van Buren. It's a very fun, funny, high energy musical.

QuoProQuid
Jan 12, 2012

Tr*ckin' and F*ckin' all the way to tha
T O P

Thank you all for voting. In what is becoming known as the Revolution of 1800, John Jay has been elected President. His ascension is thought to be the result of a rare Hamiltonian-Jeffersonian alliance and Jay's intent to serve only a single term. In a humiliating demotion, His Elective Majesty Mr. John Adams has become Vice President. The relationship between the two men is, understandably, strained.

This role reversal also has many wondering if it might be time to reform the Electoral College. Making the runner-up Vice President seems like a recipe for disaster.



RESULTS BREAKDOWN

Most popular candidates:

1. John Jay – 65 votes (73%)
2. John Adams – 45 votes (50.6%)
3. Aaron Burr – 34 votes (38.2%)
4. Thomas Jefferson – 19 votes (21.3%)
5. Charles Cotesworth Pinckney – 15 votes (16.9%)

Most popular tickets:

1. John Adams / John Jay – 26 votes
2. Aaron Burr / John Jay – 22 votes
3. Aaron Burr / John Adams – 9 votes
4. John Jay / Charles Cotesworth Pinckney – 9 votes
5. Thomas Jefferson / John Jay – 8 votes
6. Thomas Jefferson / John Adams – 6 votes
7. John Adams / Charles Cotesworth Pinckney – 4 votes
8. Thomas Jefferson / Charles Cotesworth Pinckney – 2 votes

Most popular parties:

1. Federalist Party – 125 votes (70.2%)
2. Democratic-Republican Party – 52 votes (29.8%)

QuoProQuid has issued a correction as of 18:07 on Dec 13, 2015

QuoProQuid
Jan 12, 2012

Tr*ckin' and F*ckin' all the way to tha
T O P

ELECTION OF 1804

:siren: Click here to vote in the Election of 1804! :siren:



Background:

Four years after Jefferson’s first election, the United States seems back on track. Adams’s efforts to end the Quasi War have allowed American trade to flow back into Europe, bringing about an economic boom. A ceasefire between England and France has allowed tensions to cool in the United States, ending political agitation. A repeal of most of the Alien and Sedition Acts has allowed printers to reopen, restoring freedom of speech to even the strongest of Federalist strongholds. Jefferson’s purchase of Louisiana has only further bolstered his popularity and many poor farmers are already making plans to settle in the West. Only two dark spots remain on the horizon. First, Native American tribes have threatened to halt American expansion by any means necessary. Second, the constitutional prohibition on the slave trade is set to expire in 1808. Though these events have some worried, the public believes that both issues can be resolved without much dispute.

The only real source of tension in the new republic is the death of Alexander Hamilton at the hands of sitting Vice President Aaron Burr. Spurred by Hamilton’s sabotage of Aaron Burr’s political career, first by preventing his ascension to the Presidency and second by stopping his hijacking of the New York Federalist Party, Aaron Burr challenged Hamilton to a duel. Though many expected the dispute to end without bloodshed, it instead ended with Burr killing Hamilton. The details of this incident are disputed. Hamilton’s supporters allege that Burr shot Hamilton in cold blood after Hamilton signaled his intent to spare Burr. Burr, by contrast, believes that the whole duel was an elaborate suicide. According to Burr, Hamilton realized that the only way to lock Burr out of power was by making him responsible for the death of the “Federalist colossus.”

Whatever the reason, the incident has made Burr a pariah among both the Federalist and Democratic-Republicans. New York and New Jersey have indicted the Vice President on murder charges and have called for his arrest. Burr’s former friends in France and England have refused to shelter him and instead are calling for his death. Burr himself is making plans to flee to New Orleans after his term, so as to start a new life in the West. The Federalist Party is currently in a death spiral, with its two most prominent members now dead or disgraced.

The Candidates:

DEMOCRATIC-REPUBLICAN PARTY CANDIDATES:


Presidential Nominee: Thomas Jefferson
  • Notable Positions:President of the United States, Secretary of State, Ambassador to France, Governor of Virginia, Delegate to the Continental Congress, Author of the Declaration of Independence
  • Party Affiliation: Democratic-Republican Party
  • Biography: Brilliant. Humorless. Cosmopolitan. Slaveholder. Jefferson is a man of contradictions, at once the author of the Declaration of Independence and at the same time a defender of the plantation system. Though his revolutionary zeal and legal brilliance attracts admirers, Jefferson is known for being uncomfortable in public settings. He rarely speaks before crowds, dresses in old-fashioned clothing, and often secludes himself from other people.
  • Platform: Thomas Jefferson has been responsible for several revolutions over the last few years. Under his administration, he has convinced the several states to eliminate property requirements for voting, giving almost all white men the right to vote. Jefferson has also brought about the Twelfth Amendment, repairing a previously broken electoral system. Most recently, Jefferson presided over the purchase of Louisiana from the French. Though some within Jefferson’s party have accused him of violating his principles, the doubling of American territory has proven popular among the common people. Many see the purchase as America’s first step toward becoming an “agrarian republic,” a nation where every citizen will be able to own their own plantation or farm. Jefferson supports wars that will halt “the dangerous extension of the British Province of Canada and add to the Empire of liberty.” He has also brought America one of its first formal military victories against the Barbary pirates. He believes in a military based on the militia system. Jefferson owns slaves, but has suggested that he would support a permanent end to the slave trade when the constitutional prohibition on it expires in 1808.


Vice Presidential Nominee: George Clinton
  • Notable Positions: Governor of New York
  • Party Affiliation: Democratic-Republican Party
  • Biography: A Revolutionary War hero and Governor of New York, Clinton is a powerful force in New York politics. Before independence, he was known for protecting the Sons of Liberty, an act which regularly earned him imprisonment by the British. During the war, he served as New York’s wartime governor and was responsible for coordinating the state’s war effort. His prior opposition to the Constitution has made Clinton a divisive figure outside the state. Hamilton has used his network of printers to spread rumors that Clinton is still opposed to the Constitution and will undo it if given power.
  • Platform: A former Anti-Federalist deeply committed to the small freehold farmers of New York’s countryside, George Clinton is known as the “yeoman politician.” He opposes Hamilton’s economic reforms, as he believes they will give the national government excessive authority over the state and individual. He is fanatically opposed to the British. Clinton would like to see the establishment of a standing army to protect existing territory and to seize British lands. He opposes slavery on a personal basis, but sees the issue as a low priority. He has been non-committal about the slave trade’s end in 1808. He supports renewing American ties with France.


FEDERALIST PARTY CANDIDATES:


Presidential Nominee: Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
  • Notable Positions: Minister of Finance, Ambassador to France, Delegate to the Constitutional Convention
  • Party Affiliation: Federalist Party
  • Biography: Charles Pinckney is a nationally-respected leader who participated in the Revolutionary War and the Constitutional Convention. The eldest son of a prominent South Carolina planter, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney was tutored in London and studied law at Christ Church College in Oxford. Despite his loyalist upbringing and a long career serving colonial government, Pinckney joined the Patriot cause. Between 1789 and 1795 he declined presidential appointments to the U.S. Army, Supreme Court, Department of War, and Department of State. Instead, he accepted a position as Ambassador to France, where he helped defuse the XYZ Affair. Pinckney is known for being extremely scrupulous, refusing to pay bribes to facilitate negotiations.
  • Platform: With Adams’s retirement and Hamilton’s death, Pinckney is viewed as the last great candidate of the Federalist Party. Known as a “High Federalist,” Pinckney supports siding with Britain and declaring outright war against France. He believes in the need for a stronger, secularized national government that can preserve the ideals of the Revolution. He supported the Alien and Sedition Acts and believes legislators should serve without pay. Pinckney is a large slaveowner and opposed the immediate abolition of the slave trade at the Constitutional Convention. It is unknown whether he will support the slave trade’s ban when the current prohibition on it expires in 1808. He believes slavery to be integral to the economy of the South.


Vice Presidential Nominee: Rufus King
  • Notable Positions: United States Senator from New York, Diplomat to the United Kingdom, New York State Assemblyman, Director of the Bank of the United States, Delegate at the Constitutional Convention
  • Party Affiliation: Federalist Party
  • Biography: Rufus King is known as that other Federalist. The son of a Massachusetts farmer/merchant/lumberjack/sea captain, King had a pleasant childhood until an angry mob ransacked his childhood home in a fit of revolutionary passion. The incident proved to be a formative experience for King, who went on to the Constitutional Convention to condemn Jeffersonian populism and (eventually) the destruction of the Articles of Confederation. Working closely with Alexander Hamilton, King helped prepare a final draft of the United States Constitution and used his oratory to ensure its ratification. Though King has struggled in politics, he does have the respect of prominent people within both major parties. He is also a friend of Francisco de Miranda, a little-known revolutionary and South American dissident.
  • Platform: Having been personally affected by mob violence, King believes in a strong central government that will be vigilant against threats, both inside and out. The national government must have the power to act against mob violence, as it did during the Whiskey Rebellion. It must also be strong enough to raise and control a large national army, so as to avoid conquest or a military coup. King believes that the United States should not align itself with European powers, but seek to end their domination of North and South America. He views Hamilton’s economic reforms as essential to the country’s future. King supports halting the expansion of slavery but is willing “to suffer the continuance of slaves until they can be gradually emancipated in states already overrun with them.” He strong favors an end to the slave trade when the constitutional prohibition on it expires in 1808.

QuoProQuid has issued a correction as of 16:16 on Dec 13, 2015

Ibogaine
Aug 11, 2015
I liked the previous system that gave the vice presidency to the runner up a lot, since it kept presidents in check and kept them from simply putting up a "secretary" to their own "elected king".

Anyway, I went for Jefferson/Clinton. At least they want to end the slave trade and want to improve ties with the nation that will undoubtedly win the war in Europe: France. Let's face it, Napoleon Bonaparte is an unstoppable force of nature and in fact a manifestation of the world spirit, to quote a German philosopher.

Still, I am slightly miffed that I can't vote for an Adams this time.

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012

BREADS
Pinckney/King ’04

Now that Hamilton, pbuh, is no longer with us, no one can accuse Pinckney of being a puppet.

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 15, 2013




Jefferson/Clinton, though more like "against" vote for Pickney/King, rather than outright "for" vote.

WrightOfWay
Jul 24, 2010


I'm annoyed that I have to vote for a slave owner but Pinckney is horrible in every single way so Jefferson it is.

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.
This new voting system is dumb, I want King/Clinton >:|

GlyphGryph has issued a correction as of 16:25 on Dec 13, 2015

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
Hooray for John Jay :unsmith:

I guess I'll vote for Pinckney and just pray and hope he gets killed allowing Rufus to be president

the paradigm shift
Jan 18, 2006

vv whoops abstain then, or writing in Satan.

in case I wasn't clear my final position is Satan/King 1804

the paradigm shift has issued a correction as of 18:19 on Dec 13, 2015

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

the_paradigm_shift posted:

Pinckney/King mostly for the alt-history aspect and I'll be damned if I vote for a slaveowner

I've got some bad news....

QuoProQuid
Jan 12, 2012

Tr*ckin' and F*ckin' all the way to tha
T O P

the_paradigm_shift posted:

vv whoops abstain then, or writing in Satan.

Sorry, but the Marquis de Sade is constitutionally ineligible for the office of president.

the paradigm shift
Jan 18, 2006

QuoProQuid posted:

Sorry, but the Marquis de Sade is constitutionally ineligible for the office of president.

Only becomes a concern if he wins, correct?

Empress Theonora
Feb 19, 2001

She was a sword glinting in the depths of night, a lance of light piercing the darkness. There would be no mistakes this time.
Two slaveholders this time. :smith: Voted for Jefferson, but really we should be voting to tear this awful nation to the ground.

Alfred P. Pseudonym
May 29, 2006

And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss goes 8-8

What a godawful slate of candidates. King is the only one I would want to vote for, but Pinckney just sucks.

oystertoadfish
Jun 17, 2003

voted federalist, it's what hamilton would've wanted

Lord Cyrahzax
Oct 11, 2012

Federalists only.

:colbert:

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.
Was there anyone else notable running in this election that just didn't receive any electoral votes, or was this really all there was?

karmicknight
Aug 21, 2011
Welcome folks, to lovely Slate of Candidates Era.

Corpse of Hamilton (pbuh)/Rufus King 1804.


GlyphGryph posted:

Was there anyone else notable running in this election that just didn't receive any electoral votes, or was this really all there was?

Candidates are just going to get worse until the gently caress Andrew Jackson Alliance begins to give us options again.

These Democratic-Republicans will do what His Elective Majesty Mr. Adams couldn't do, destroy the Republic.

QuoProQuid
Jan 12, 2012

Tr*ckin' and F*ckin' all the way to tha
T O P

GlyphGryph posted:

Was there anyone else notable running in this election that just didn't receive any electoral votes, or was this really all there was?

Jefferson's massive popularity, the Democratic-Republican control of the press, and logistical restrictions in challenging either of the two parties really discouraged any third parties. The tertium quids are making some noise about Jefferson betraying his ideals via the Louisiana Purchase and Compact of 1802, but they aren't at the point where they are willing to challenge their party leader.

As we move through the Era of Good Feelings, there's not going to be a lot of candidates to challenge the Democratic-Republican consensus.

Octatonic
Sep 7, 2010

What's been interesting to me about this thread is that the United States, despite its aristocracy's original intent to not have parties and sort of elect among themselves, has been relegated to two party dominance for basically its whole existence. When the war of 1812 goes down, the Federalists basically disappear, and the Democratic-Republicans split into the Whigs and Democrats, right? Is there really ever a meaningful alternative for more than an election cycle or so?

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
the previous four elections?

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.
So one thing that's a big deal in the modern day political equation is primaries. In a way, primary's have become the "real" election between all of the actual US voting blocks, with the general being something of a run off between the two chosen coalitions. In some elections this has obviously mattered more than others.

When did primaries start being a thing? Previous to this we obviously had a number of people running, but it feels like it's gonna be 1v1 for Presidents from here on out, but especially once we get into recent history there's gonna be some people that would have had a real chance of winning if they'd been voted for in the primaries. Are we just gonna ignore that and stick to generals or what?

Octatonic
Sep 7, 2010

Raskolnikov38 posted:

the previous four elections?

Those have all been Democratic-Republicans vs Federalists though? Unless you mean the first one in which it was Washington (who considered himself above it all but was basically a Federalist) and a bunch of also-rans from the same party. In what universe are you seeing a multi-party system?

Octatonic has issued a correction as of 21:55 on Dec 13, 2015

oystertoadfish
Jun 17, 2003

in a few weeks we'll see the first, relatively informal system of party nomination collapse; a few cycles later the national convention becomes formalized, but the methods used by the states to nominate their delegates to that convention continue to be very murky and controversial. in the early 20th century primaries are a Progressive reform, with the 1912 election seeing a dozen states bind its delegates to the winners of a 'presidential preference primary'. in the next few cycles up to 20 states used the primary, then it went back to a dozen for the 30s-'68 era. in that time there was a mix, then, of primaries more or less as we know them and backroom politics deciding a state's nomination.

'68 saw some really violent and controversial scenes at the democratic national convention and that party made a concerted effort to broaden the use of the primary. the republicans followed along and primaries decisively took the upper hand over the now-more-formalized caucus system. in the 90s you started to see slapfights about whose primary would be the first and the setup of the modern system, and this cycle i think saw some procedural reforms that further strengthened the primary over the caucus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_primary#History

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.
National nominating conventions started in the 1820s. These were seen as anti-democratic in some states by 1920, so they began having primary elections that bound the delegates at the convention to the candidate who won the local primary. (There was an incident involving this in 1912, but I guess that's a spoiler.) They became a national thing after 1968.

Corek
May 11, 2013

by R. Guyovich
The apex of this period is 1832. Three slaveowners (maybe four, I can't find information about what William Wirt thought about slavery, but I don't think the "Anti-Masonic Party" was going to get the votes anyway.)

Corek has issued a correction as of 00:21 on Dec 14, 2015

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.
I blame this, all of this, on John Adams.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

GlyphGryph posted:

This new voting system is dumb, I want King/Clinton >:|

No poo poo. gently caress you, Twelfth Amendment, and gently caress you Thomas Jefferson for bringing it to us. King/Clinton is the best ticket this round.

foobardog
Apr 19, 2007

There, now I can tell when you're posting.

-- A friend :)
Jefferson is far too moderate on slavery than I like, but Pinckney is completely for it, so this choice isn't as hard as I thought it would be. I assume that he'll waffle on it, though. 1808's right around the corner, you slaver bastards! Additionally, with Pinckney being an ex-soldier, I'm sure he's salivating to massacre the natives to the west. These people were here before us, and it behooves us to work with them together, but the expansion westward could be a chance to flatten out society, if we don't let the lucky become the new aristocracy. Plus it's loving beautiful out here! gently caress Europe! This is the poo poo!

I foresee a future where my ancestors don't end up having to vote for some lousy Democrat just because the other option is so bad. We are perhaps working towards a more perfect nation.

Alfred P. Pseudonym
May 29, 2006

And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss goes 8-8

Voted Pinckney/King. Gonna hope Pinckney dies and we get president King.

oystertoadfish
Jun 17, 2003

practically none of these folks would've expended significant political capital to help black people, even the anti-slavery ones, i don't think. even the radical republicans during and after the civil war were pretty ambivalent and barely propped up reconstruction for a decade before abandoning blacks to their fate, and that was the absolute high-water mark of pro-black politics in the usa before the 1960s

and all of these candidates are in effect pro-genocide when it comes to native americans, as they wouldn't have called them

the conversation wasn't entirely one-sided, there were some quakers and poo poo, but nobody got their names into the presidential discussion without kowtowing to the preoccupations of the great majority at the time

so we would be even more disappointed in these candidates with respect to our invented motivations for them than we are in the politicians we vote for in real life

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Proposition Joe
Oct 8, 2010

He was a good man
Rufus King seems to be have been born in Massachusetts, so it seems as though the Federalist Party will be getting my vote once again.

  • Locked thread