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Is it worth it to cross-class PAL with WAR for end-game stuff? Or will you be fine just going pure WAR?
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Dec 14, 2015 17:28
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PuppiesAndKitties posted:Is it worth it to cross-class PAL with WAR for end-game stuff? Or will you be fine just going pure WAR? Provoke is a must have, so yes. Some of the other abilities are also useful: - Awareness goes hand in hand with Raw Intuition to avoid getting critted while positioning mobs. - Convalescence helps with healing. - Flash helps generate aggro when out of TP or pacified.
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Dec 14, 2015 17:39
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You need Gladiator to 15 to get Warrior and Provoke at Gladiator 22 is a must-have for all tanks at lv50 and beyond. There's also Awareness at Gladiator 34 as a cooldown and it negates the downside of another Warrior cooldown (but ideally it shouldn't be a thing, Raw Intuition parries all enemy attacks from the front but all flank/rear attacks crit and Awareness negates crits but enemies should be in front of you anyways) but it's hardly necessary. e: grammar
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Dec 14, 2015 17:41
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totalnewbie posted:And if DPS is being pissy that you're losing hate (because they're synced and overgeared), it's really up to them to know better than to pull hate off of you, so don't feel bad about their whining. There's more to being a good DPS (albeit not much more...) than just making GBS threads out big numbers. Granted, in general if you're suitably geared (mostly weapon) and playing well, then the only times you should lose hate are if a DPS gets some lucky big numbers in their opener, or the healer decides to go egregiously overkill with spamming unnecessary AoE healing. Or if you misjudge slightly when going for damage over threat. If a DPS pulls aggro 3 seconds before the mob's gonna die, generally nobody cares. And Nthing the whole "look at the threat indicators in the party list when targeting a mob". Get in the habit of frequently switching targets to check threat on each of them, and hit whatever has the fullest threat bar for someone other than you. Unless it's about to die of course. If you're super solid on everything then you can shift more into "focus the most annoying one down" DPS-like mode, but that's (usually) a second priority behind keeping solid threat on everything. Losing threat will generally eat into the DPS's damage pretty appreciably. Similarly, if several things have worryingly full threat bars for other people (often a risk at the start of a pull), that's a good time for AoE (but expensive and non-sustainable) threat moves like Overpower. By doing this you can almost always pre-emptively avoid losing hate in the first place, which is ideal. (Things can and will be messy if DPS and/or heals take it upon themselves to pull for you. That messiness is not your fault, but you'll still be expected to try to clean it up.) Next best is to be really on the ball about getting it back when you do lose hate. Not acceptable is to tunnel vision one mob as if you were a DPS, blithely ignoring any chaos in the background.
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Dec 14, 2015 17:45
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Thundarr posted:In fairness to OF rant guy, RMT tells are still completely obnoxious on small servers and I have little faith that SE cares to do anything about it at this point. Small servers? poo poo dude even on Excal I've never logged on without getting at least 1 RMT tell, usually multiple per hour, even when I'm blacklisting them as I go. Its an insanely huge problem. I don't see why square can't just write a script to flag anybody who sends a tell to more than like 5 strangers in an hour. It should be extremely easy to catch these guys. PuppiesAndKitties posted:Is it worth it to cross-class PAL with WAR for end-game stuff? Or will you be fine just going pure WAR? This question makes it sound like you're playing XI instead of XIV You mean GLD not PAL, and you have to get GLD to 15 to get WAR in the first place. So you can't really choose if you want to "cross-class" or not.  The only question is if you level GLD from 15 to 22 and you really should.
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Dec 14, 2015 17:52
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Zaphod42 posted:You mean GLD not PAL, and you have to get GLD to 15 to get WAR in the first place. No, I meant PAL. I'm 38 (39?) WAR right now and loving it (and the instaqueues!), the toothpick flailing to get that drat GLD to 15 was a pain in the rear end. But if leveling GLD and CNJ will save me even more rear end-pain in the end-game then I'm going to do it.
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Dec 14, 2015 18:03
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PuppiesAndKitties posted:No, I meant PAL. I'm 38 (39?) WAR right now and loving it (and the instaqueues!), the toothpick flailing to get that drat GLD to 15 was a pain in the rear end. But if leveling GLD and CNJ will save me even more rear end-pain in the end-game then I'm going to do it. Well WAR isn't allowed to use any PAL skills so  The highest skill you can cross-class is GLD 34, but really its the 22 skill that you need the most. Why CNJ? So that you can get PAL? Again, don't really need PAL.
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Dec 14, 2015 18:09
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It's mostly a semantic distinction of course, but you can only cross-class skills from other classes, not from jobs. It's especially semantic when considering that there are plenty of class skills that also can't be cross-classed, so it's really more about which specific skills are available than whether they're technically gladiator or paladin skills (though they'll always be gladiator, or whatever other respective underlying class it is). Anyway, you don't have to turn your gladiator into a paladin before you can grab its skills on warrior. You just have to get gladiator leveled high enough. Granted, the 34 skill, Awareness, comes later than the level 30 expected change from gladiator to paladin. So it's a good idea to upgrade to paladin, for its passive stat boost and for Sword Oath, for leveling from 30-34. But you can unlock Awareness for cross-classing by hitting 34 regardless of whether you've become a paladin or stayed a gladiator. In general, although it's far from an immediately important project, it's not a bad idea to take an evening or two and grind out everything to level 15 (doing their class quests along the way). Not only will that open up the vast majority of cross-class options (with a few notable exceptions like Provoke, Swiftcast, Invigorate, etc.), but it'll also fulfill the requirements for secondary levels for any later jobs you want to unlock, and it'll get the whole tedious early level pre-dungeon stuff out of the way so you can freely run dungeons when you feel like playing that class/job again for real.
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Dec 14, 2015 18:19
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Vil posted:It's mostly a semantic distinction of course, but you can only cross-class skills from other classes, not from jobs. It's especially semantic when considering that there are plenty of class skills that also can't be cross-classed, so it's really more about which specific skills are available than whether they're technically gladiator or paladin skills (though they'll always be gladiator, or whatever other respective underlying class it is). Cool, thanks for this.
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Dec 14, 2015 18:23
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Granbar posted:Thanks for sorting me out! Now I'm ready for anything!!! Bind Place to a key. You won't regret it.
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Dec 14, 2015 19:11
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totalnewbie posted:And if DPS is being pissy that you're losing hate (because they're synced and overgeared), it's really up to them to know better than to pull hate off of you, so don't feel bad about their whining. There's more to being a good DPS (albeit not much more...) than just making GBS threads out big numbers.
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Dec 14, 2015 19:47
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ilifinicus posted:excuse me loving what? if you can't hold hate you're the shitter, not the DPS. holding threat in this game is TRIVIAL Look you loving scrub if you don't stop doing so much damage and follow my targeting marks I'm gonna stop tanking this Sastasha RIGHT HERE.
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Dec 14, 2015 19:57
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Fister Roboto posted:Look you loving scrub if you don't stop doing so much damage and follow my targeting marks I'm gonna stop tanking this Sastasha RIGHT HERE. I'm gonna equip muh level 15 set! Oh, wait..
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Dec 14, 2015 20:01
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ilifinicus posted:excuse me loving what? if you can't hold hate you're the shitter, not the DPS. holding threat in this game is TRIVIAL a gladiator in the newbie dungeons whose only significant threat tool is flash will have trouble against level-synced dps, since the expansion changed syncing - their gear is synced to the stats of HQ at-level gear instead of NQ at-level gear (part of why Aurum Vale was even shittier than it is now). of course it's newbie dungeons where literally anyone can tank damage no problem, so who cares, but I am a pedantic nerd
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Dec 14, 2015 20:14
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Thank Christ when I was first playing and leveling as MRD I didn't wind up with a bunch of douchebags. Maybe it's because I 'fessed up to being new at the beginning and set proper expectations, but everyone always seemed nice and chill.
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Dec 14, 2015 20:17
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nuru posted:Bind Place to a key. You won't regret it. This is one of my favorite things as Scholar. "Max healing range? What's that?"
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Dec 14, 2015 20:19
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It's basically a balancing act between sharing of helpful information, with not being a pushy knowitall, and not triggering unexpected rage. This is the internet, after all, and people don't always take kindly to criticism, even when it's phrased in a very polite and friendly way. Because of this, I'm always willing to give friendly advice if asked (this includes, at least for instance-specific stuff, saying you're new). But as far as volunteering advice, I'll typically only do that if it's clear that they're not even doing their basic job in such a way that it'll cause real problems (e.g. ignoring/loving up crucial mechanics, tank only paying attention to one mob, healer not cleansing important debuffs). Sometimes I'll take the risk of dropping a quick note if they're clearly trying to do right but are struggling with their tools (e.g. warriors hitting nothing but overpower then running on TP fumes, white mages never touching regen, dragoons spamming ring of thorns for AoE). It's always important to start out being polite and friendly about it. If they get dickish or vitriolic, I'll just shut up rather than getting drawn in to a mud-slinging argument. (I'll also start itching towards the vote dismiss button, and if that fails I'll just leave myself. This is pretty rare though.) Vil fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Dec 14, 2015 |
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Dec 14, 2015 20:45
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ilifinicus posted:excuse me loving what? if you can't hold hate you're the shitter, not the DPS. holding threat in this game is TRIVIAL Chill, but if you're a new tank, you don't have too many tools to grab and hold aggro right off the bat. If the DPS starts dumping damage as soon as the fight starts, it's not unusual for them to pull hate. It's not hard to get it back if it happens and you should only lose hate for a few seconds at most, but people get pissy about the smallest things. I mean, someone with good synced gear who pops cooldowns right off the bat can pull hate off of a new tank in meh gear who hasn't had a chance to build it up yet, it just happens. But the DPS should know better than to do that right off the bat, yeah?
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Dec 14, 2015 21:02
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bj8vzqvNeI Spoilers if you haven't gotten to Heavensward. someone please dub Gay Bar over it
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Dec 14, 2015 21:05
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Tanks have all the tools they need to hold threat at every level of dungeons.
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Dec 14, 2015 21:06
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I have a dummy BLM question: should I be using Thunder 2 (and eventually, 3) as a wholesale replacement for thunder 1, or is it better to cast thunder 1 and save 2 (then later, 3) for thundercloud procs? 2 & 3 do more dps obviously, but I'm not good enough at math to figure out whether the increased cast time cutting into my fire time is a DPS loss.
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Dec 14, 2015 21:07
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Fister Roboto posted:Tanks have all the tools they need to hold threat at every level of dungeons. Warrior of all classes actually has a bit of trouble single target in Tam-Tara, because it doesn't get Butcher's Block. Aside from that and level 10 guildhests (lol) I don't think there's a single other place where a tank lacks the tools outright.
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Dec 14, 2015 21:10
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The early dungeons are the only places where it can be somewhat difficult to maintain hate as a new tank, especially if your gear isn't in top shape and the DPS is rocking HQ synced gear, because you don't have your tank stances yet. Once you get shield oath / defiance / grit, maintaining it is trivial. It's still possible to hold it, but between new players, it's usually gonna be a bad time. I remember one time, I just hit level 28 with MRD, queued up for DR and got Haukke with two synced level 31 DPSes. I still had my level 25 gear, so I immediately said "sorry in advance, it's gonna be tough to hold hate without my stance" and one of them said "that's fine, do your best" and we managed, and they gave me all 3 comms for my effort and honesty 
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Dec 14, 2015 21:12
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totalnewbie posted:Chill, but if you're a new tank, you don't have too many tools to grab and hold aggro right off the bat. If the DPS starts dumping damage as soon as the fight starts, it's not unusual for them to pull hate. It's not hard to get it back if it happens and you should only lose hate for a few seconds at most, but people get pissy about the smallest things. whereas something could be that you are completely undergeared for the content and need to do something about that level 1 Weathered Axe you're still using in Tam-Tara or that you simply do not understand how to push your buttons
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Dec 14, 2015 21:14
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I've always heard that gold farmers like to start DDOSing when an MMO company goes after them hard, so that might be a factor in why SE hasn't done more. Then again, I've only played a handful of MMOs, but gold spam was always a problem.
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Dec 14, 2015 21:16
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Ainsley McTree posted:I have a dummy BLM question: should I be using Thunder 2 (and eventually, 3) as a wholesale replacement for thunder 1, or is it better to cast thunder 1 and save 2 (then later, 3) for thundercloud procs? 2 & 3 do more dps obviously, but I'm not good enough at math to figure out whether the increased cast time cutting into my fire time is a DPS loss. General rule of thumb is to pick Thunder or Thunder 2, and save Thunder 3 for thundercloud procs. I like regular Thunder because of the quicker cast, other BLMs like Thunder 2. Ideally, you cast it during your Umbral Ice phase, so you should regen your MP by the time you're going back into fire.
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Dec 14, 2015 21:40
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Just looking at weapon damage alone, a genuine but reasonably geared (forgive me if I don't think level 1 weapon hyperbole serves as grounds to dismiss an otherwise valid counterexample) newbie tank in Tam-tara is going to be slinging their 11 damage level 15 quest reward, while a sync'd-to-19 DPS is going to have a weapon with the equivalent of 14ish damage. Throw in the base stats from leveling and the occasional 1 point higher main stat on various pieces of gear from 15 natural vs. 19 sync'd. Granted, I'm sure there are plenty of other formulas and stats that'll go into that, but that's enough of a percentage difference in weapon damage alone that I could totally see that being an occasional issue, especially when cooldowns get involved. And that's if the tank does know what buttons to push. (Which will either be something unsustainable like Flash or Overpower, or only every other move getting bonus threat like the single-target threat combos.) At the very least, I think it constitutes enough case for reasonable doubt that I wouldn't hold that blanket statement of threat is always trivial, to be 100% true. 99% true, sure. Threat gets progressively easier and more faceroll-y, the higher you get. I don't think anyone's disputing that. But the original subject of conversation was examples relating to low level tanking in particular, so I think it's worth looking at that in a bit more detail rather than assuming that broad sweeping declarations hold true just as easily at that point.
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Dec 14, 2015 21:40
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ilifinicus posted:if you have trouble holding aggro at ANY LEVEL OF THIS GAME you are doing something wrong Okay, sorry for not minmaxing my character at every level. I guess it's NEVER the case that DPS will focus completely different targets and make it a pain in the rear end to hold hate, or pops cooldowns on their openers, etc.  Like, I get that it's not exactly hard, but you act like DPS can do whatever the gently caress they want and will never pull hate and later on that's true, but it's really not the case at low levels. You are basically the person that we warn people about, "Hey, don't worry if some sperg gets lovely with you". It's you. You're the sperg. Relax.
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Dec 14, 2015 21:47
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I think the hardest time I had holding aggro was when I hit 50 with my first character in 2.3. I was a Paladin in AF gear, a HQ Giantsgall weapon and a NQ Darksteel belt that I blew all my money on, and ready to do some lv50 dungeons after spending all of Castrum/Prae in cutscene hell. Queued up for my first dungeon and spent the whole thing using copious amounts of flash trying to keep aggro from significantly better geared and much better players (I didn't know about queuing actions until a macro debate came up in this thread for example, and that was after I hit 50). I don't remember if or how many times I lost aggro but it was a pretty slow WP! I don't think I did another lv50 dungeon until I did some hunts and got some i90 gear.
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Dec 14, 2015 21:57
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Niton posted:Warrior of all classes actually has a bit of trouble single target in Tam-Tara, because it doesn't get Butcher's Block. Aside from that and level 10 guildhests (lol) I don't think there's a single other place where a tank lacks the tools outright. There's no such thing as threat issues when you can just overpower 5 times for every pack in Tam-Tara.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:06
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Out of curiousity I went to a gilspam site just to see the prices. You can buy 200million gil for $360. You can also buy the glowing primal weapons or i180 crafting tools, each individually for $72 
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Dec 14, 2015 22:15
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seiferguy posted:Out of curiousity I went to a gilspam site just to see the prices. You can buy 200million gil for $360. You can also buy the glowing primal weapons or i180 crafting tools, each individually for $72  What do you need 200 million gil for? I have 2.8 million and have no desire for anything that it can purchase because i have all the pretty princess stuff I wanted that's tradeable.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:20
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Dubious posted:
A giant box of hunting hawks. nuru posted:There's no such thing as threat issues when you can just overpower 5 times for every pack in Tam-Tara. Single target it can be a little tough, especially against classes that don't normally have Raging Strikes after 30.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:21
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seiferguy posted:Out of curiousity I went to a gilspam site just to see the prices. You can buy 200million gil for $360. You can also buy the glowing primal weapons or i180 crafting tools, each individually for $72 That makes 555,000 gil worth $1. That's absurdly overpriced, a goon will do this for the cost of the mats, which is around 300K. They should be charging like 75 cents, tops.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:27
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totalnewbie posted:Okay, sorry for not minmaxing my character at every level. I guess it's NEVER the case that DPS will focus completely different targets and make it a pain in the rear end to hold hate, or pops cooldowns on their openers, etc. It's the DPS's job to do damage. Saying that it's their responsibility to do less damage if the tank sucks is stupid.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:28
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Fister Roboto posted:It's the DPS's job to do damage. Saying that it's their responsibility to do less damage if the tank sucks is stupid. And people wonder why it takes so long to find tanks.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:32
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you're somehow trying to tell me it's hard to hit flash until empty on mana and then riot blade till mana is back? come on guy
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Dec 14, 2015 22:33
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Niton posted:Single target it can be a little tough, especially against classes that don't normally have Raging Strikes after 30. You may need to try overpowering more. It's really that ridiculous.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:35
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When all your TP is gone because nobody can agree on a target and the healer goes "lol gently caress it" and spams AOE heals then yes, it can occasionally be difficult to determine which person should not die first.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:36
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Just mash overpower until you get to Longstop, then maybe try tossing in a defensive cooldown on bossfights .
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Dec 14, 2015 22:36
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