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Monis is a telltale case of the idea that mental illness is not a be all and end all of moral culpability, along with Khaled Sharrouf (and internationally people like Anders Breivik). We can easily prove they were ill, Sharrouf even easier than Monis as he was a diagnosed delusional schizophrenic, but I'll be damned before I say that mental illness would be a compelling reason to say they weren't morally culpable for their actions. There's a line between understanding of issues, and absolution of people purely on issues where "if issue exists, culpability does not exist". It's a line not to be crossed or confused because there are real people for whom that reason does, and should, exist where they were not morally culpable for their crimes from mental illness and they needn't be lumped in with psychopaths.
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Dec 15, 2015 02:47
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Cleretic posted:Neither of them by Monis. I also want to point this post out. He posed this lie, despite the article which he is discussing explicitly saying that Monis Killed one hostage by making him kneel and shooting him in the back, which was the trigger for the police to go in in the first place. It's almost as if the entire purpose of this dicussion is to reinforce your world view, rather than any genuine inquiry.
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Dec 15, 2015 02:48
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Amethyst posted:Wow, I'm glad we have Reasonable, Smart men like you around to decide when phrases like "unleash hell" are chuckle worthy offences from idiots and when "tragedy" should be applied. This is a worthwhile discussion and definitely not a circlejerk between self important dweebs. Hey man in this thread we only do real philosophy.
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Dec 15, 2015 02:48
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Lid posted:Monis is a telltale case of the idea that mental illness is not a be all and end all of moral culpability, along with Khaled Sharrouf (and internationally people like Anders Breivik). Agreed.
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Dec 15, 2015 02:48
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Wow some amazing developments in the MYEFO announcement!  Nope the same tired low rent trolls and the same loving nongs biting. 
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Dec 15, 2015 02:49
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Amethyst posted:Wow, I'm glad we have Reasonable, Smart men like you around to decide when phrases like "unleash hell" are chuckle worthy offences from idiots and when "tragedy" should be applied. This is a worthwhile discussion and definitely not a circlejerk between self important dweebs. So you agree that Unleash Hell is a poor way to characterise a 12 hour siege where 50% of the people killed died by police bullets? This whole loving stupid thing started because Starshark was critical of the language used, and then you leapt of your high dive board of loving stupidity into arguments that you assumed people were making. Look at how fast you are backpedalling now that you're no longer stuffing arguments into people's mouths to rage against.
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Dec 15, 2015 02:49
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quote:Lindt Cafe manager Tori Johnson, lawyer Katrina Dawson and Monis all died during the 16-hour siege. Uhh, I don't see why the media are making a big deal out of this? It's just the same thing as a standard rural car wreck.
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Dec 15, 2015 02:49
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hooman posted:Do you think "unleash hell" is a fair characterisation of what happened? you are literally having a rant over word choice in an article looking back a year ago at a very important incident, it's pedantry of the most ridiculous that isn't a political argument despite you trying to make it one if you want to go yell at the editor or the writer for the overwrought lyrical flourish go nuts, but you're pretty clearly trying to paint this in a rationalist political sense and the argument just isn't there besides long pedantic diatribes
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Dec 15, 2015 02:49
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hooman posted:So you agree that Unleash Hell is a poor way to characterise a 12 hour siege where 50% of the people killed died by police bullets? I don't agree at all. "Unleash hell" is a perfectly reasonable phrase to use for a guy entering a cafe with a shotgun and murdering an innocent man.
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Dec 15, 2015 02:50
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You guys weren't just criticizing the language use. You literally, actually said this is equivalent to a road toll death, and the whole thing is part of your wider assertion that fear of radical Islam is basically mass hysteria. Don't act like this is simple semantics, especially while accusing me of backpedaling.
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Dec 15, 2015 02:52
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Lid posted:you are literally having a rant over word choice in an article looking back a year ago at a very important incident, it's pedantry of the most ridiculous that isn't a political argument despite you trying to make it one This whole thing literally started because an idiot threw their toys out of the pram over a criticism of a word choice. That is literally all this was about before these two idiots decided that people were making points that they weren't. Also I 100% agree with you regarding mental illness, it may explain why things happen but it certainly doesn't remove culpability.
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Dec 15, 2015 02:53
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Who is the "you" you referred to please just don't say "lefties" or other dumb bullshit
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Dec 15, 2015 02:54
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Amethyst posted:fear of radical Islam is basically mass hysteria. But it is?
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Dec 15, 2015 02:54
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hooman posted:This whole thing literally started because an idiot threw their toys out of the pram over a criticism of a word choice. That is literally all this was about before these two idiots decided that people were making points that they weren't. Nope. You're re-characterising this argument to save face. Let me show you how this argument actually started: hooman posted:Yeah this much of an outpouring of grief over the death toll of the average rural road accident is a bit over the top.
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Dec 15, 2015 02:54
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hooman posted:I thought that Monis shot one (which prompted the raid) and the po-po shot the other (and Monis)? I honestly don't remember if the deaths were entirely from the police shooting, or just mostly from the police shooting, and I'll cop that as a personal error. Tragedy no matter what, but I think it's important to take into account. Taking the Lindt hostage situation as just straight-up 'ISLAMIC TERRORISM ON AUSTRALIAN SOIL' is perhaps the worst thing you can do when talking about it; it devalues everything else in favor of overinflating the relevance of ISIS, which is both very minor (there's resonable cause to believe that Monis was basically an independent incident latching on to them) and exactly what they would want. Instead, maybe make note of other facts, like how Monis was a potential danger that the Islamic community tried to warn authorities about anyway, how their 'first dreadful step into Australia' amounted to one guy holding up a cafe and a low single-digit bodycount, and how most of those deaths weren't even on the terrorist.
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Dec 15, 2015 02:55
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open24hours posted:But it is? There is a lot of clear eyed assessment we need to do around radical islam, including identifying and undermining overblown media coverage. What it should not include is an absurd assertion that it isn't really a big deal and we should all chill
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Dec 15, 2015 02:56
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"you guys" gently caress the hive mind has been discovered
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Dec 15, 2015 02:56
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Cleretic posted:I honestly don't remember if the deaths were entirely from the police shooting, or just mostly from the police shooting. Tragedy no matter what, but I think it's important to take into account. jesus christ read the article
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Dec 15, 2015 02:56
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Birdstrike posted:"you guys" You're such a dullard, all you ever do is post useless little inconsequential snipes from the sidelines. I don't have a clue what is actually in your head but I suspect it's not much.
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Dec 15, 2015 02:57
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Lid posted:You do loving know it's possible to care about more than one thing at once right? Yes, yes I do. Which is why when we gut domestic violence services and then say "it's possible to care about more than one thing at once" I don't think we care about domestic violence and I think it's crocodile tears. Amethyst posted:If all you can see in this situation compared to the road toll is "the length of time it took" you are either stupid, or posturing as a rational, above it all Thinker with a capital T.
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Dec 15, 2015 02:58
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Amethyst posted:You're such a dullard, all you ever do is post useless little inconsequential snipes from the sidelines. I don't have a clue what is actually in your head but I suspect it's not much. ahaha I wasted ironicat fml
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Dec 15, 2015 02:59
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Birb Katter posted:Yes, yes I do. Which is why when we gut domestic violence services and then say "it's possible to care about more than one thing at once" I don't think we care about domestic violence and I think it's crocodile tears. Uh....you say "yes, yes I do" but then immediately say "if we care Islam then why domestic violence". Which means that actually, you didn't understand his point at all and are stubbornly continuing down the same line of argument.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:00
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Birdstrike posted:ahaha I wasted ironicat fml I agree, gently caress your life, jump off a cliff imo (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 15, 2015 03:00
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Amethyst posted:There is a lot of clear eyed assessment we need to do around radical islam, including identifying and undermining overblown media coverage. What it should not include is an absurd assertion that it isn't really a big deal and we should all chill It's a big deal for those who are affected by it, which is virtually no one. At least in this country.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:01
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Amethyst posted:Nope. You're re-characterising this argument to save face. Let me show you how this argument actually started: I stand by that. I think there is an over the top reaction to this situation. I think that the deaths of two people is a loving tragedy. I think that the amount of coverage and play this whole thing got was over the top. I think there has been a huge amount of overreach in terms of description and the media has been intrusive and poo poo throughout the whole thing. On the other hand I also think things like vigils for terrorist attacks in Paris are dumb too. We manage to give a huge poo poo about some things and no shits whatsoever about others. Over 100 people die in a bombing during elections in Turkey and listen to the loving silence, 2 people die in Sydney and the sky falls. Maybe I don't give enough of a poo poo, maybe I don't have enough empathy but I find it really hard to be anything but loving cynical about any reaction to the Sydney siege by people who were not directly affected by it (eg. hostage or family member of hostage etc) beyond "that loving sucks and is sad" to not be exploitative.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:01
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honestly i'm a bit sick or the muddling of "radical islam" vs islam itself because, i'm talking strictly politically here, it is a theocratic fascist political view that anyone who holds should be rightly criticised for having or endeavouring to (along with any other fringe right wing fascists, and thats who these guys are - fringe)open24hours posted:But it is? fear is hysteria i agree, but hatred and demonisation of far right violent extremists should always be the providence of the left (and rightly so) - we can defend Islam, and the practitioners of Islam, and not be caught flatfooted by making excuses or outright ignoring the political place on the spectrum all on the far right share
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Dec 15, 2015 03:01
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This is such an outburst of faux outrage, it's amazing
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Dec 15, 2015 03:01
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open24hours posted:It's a big deal for those who are affected by it, which is virtually no one. At least in this country. Virtually no one is affected by radical islam, "at least in this country". Okay. Enjoy your political discussion thread.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:02
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Lid posted:honestly i'm a bit sick or the muddling of "radical islam" vs islam itself because, i'm talking strictly politically here, it is a theocratic fascist political view that anyone who holds should be rightly criticised for having or endeavouring to (along with any other fringe right wing fascists, and thats who these guys are - fringe) Do you really want to defend Islam? I mean Islam isn't any worse than any other religion, but it's not the religion you want to be defending so much as pluralism.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:02
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Recoome posted:This is such an outburst of faux outrage, it's amazing Every loving rear end in a top hat who feels the impulse to post something like this needs to drink some draino. We're here to be outraged, and have political opinions. gently caress off.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:02
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Amethyst posted:Virtually no one is affected by radical islam, "at least in this country". Okay. Enjoy your political discussion thread. Are you making a point here? "Hey guys we really need to have a close look at Islam." *nods sternly*
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Dec 15, 2015 03:03
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open24hours posted:Are you making a point here? "Hey guys we really need to have a close look at Islam." *nods sternly* We do need to have a look at radicalism, in general. I don't know if you consider this a controversial statement in the age of cronulla pride and the paris attacks.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:04
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The Guardian posted:Here are your key points, via my colleague Lenore Taylor.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:04
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Amethyst posted:We do need to have a look at radicalism, in general. I don't know if you consider this a controversial statement in the age of cronulla pride and the paris attacks. Yes we need to be aware of the world around us. We need to prevent radicalisation in the same way as we need to prevent live wires lying across the street or tiles falling of roofs.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:05
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Savings $704m over 3 years by cracking down on welfare compliance$639m over 4 years by removing bulk billing incentives for pathology services & reducing the incentive for MRI services$595m over 4 years from health workforce programs$472m over 3 years from Aged Care funding$441m over 4 years by means testing the Child Care subsidy for families earning more than $250,000
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Dec 15, 2015 03:07
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open24hours posted:Yes we need to be aware of the world around us. We need to prevent radicalisation in the same way as we need to prevent live wires lying across the street or tiles falling of roofs. More absurd equivocation which means nothing. Radical islam is exactly the same thing as council regulations around electricity wiring, good job, smart guy.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:07
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don't lump me in with the rest of these handsome leftist sexhavers thankyou
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Dec 15, 2015 03:07
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open24hours posted:It's a big deal for those who are affected by it, which is virtually no one. At least in this country. Let me break this down with a comparison to America, going back to Lindt Saying that radical Islam is not nearly as important as gun control because of the number of deaths over time: yes, it makes logical sense Saying that 9/11 is not a significant incident and its crocodile tears because of domestic violence funding being gutted: a complete logical fallacy built on the old "why cry for your dead grandfather when millions are starving" bullshit NOW yes radical islam is barely a blip on the radar here, but when it does come up that does not mean it is to be treated differently from the political fascism of, for example, one Tony Abbott. Far right Islam and Far right Christianity occupy the same space. I do not think it's appropriate to brush one aside as negligible vs the other as it has shades less of "not important here" and more of "this is a question that makes me feel uneasy and is associated with racist islamophobia so lets not get involved".
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Dec 15, 2015 03:08
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Lmao the budget drops a few more billion and all they can do is CRACKDOWN ON WELFARE MATE.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:08
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Mate what we need is a task force, a cop of every corner, a royal commission, a summit, and retreat. We'll get on top of this radicalisation issue if it kills us. Do you think there is some great mystery behind radicalisation, like no one has thought about the reasons people become radicalised before?
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Dec 15, 2015 03:08
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