|
Evil Fluffy posted:Saw 50 posts and foolishly thought something worthwhile happened, but no it's just jivjov blindly defending Rothfuss and failing to understand how people could be frustrated with a goony procrastinating writer who is milking his fans because he's probably afraid that his next book will be as bad as WMF. It's like you didn't even read any of my posts. I'm not "blindly defending" anyone. It's fine to be frustrated with a wait. What's not fine is acting like Rothfuss owes any of us anything. Or belittling him for doing "things that are not writing the book". And if book 3 is of the same quality as book 2, I'll be perfectly happy indeed, as book 2 was great.
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2015 20:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 12:59 |
|
|
"But how does it taste?" asked Rothfuss. "Yummy!" answered the fan, wiping their chin on a stained sleeve.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2015 22:41
|
|
|
I love that people are going to see 50 news posts and then get this instead of a book update. Jivjov when you say same quality as book 2, are you referring to the binding and materials used to create the book? I agree, they were sound.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 00:28
|
|
|
Benson Cunningham posted:I love that people are going to see 50 news posts and then get this instead of a book update. My paperback split down the spine during the first read. Can't even give him that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 01:52
|
|
|
BananaNutkins posted:My paperback split down the spine during the first read. Can't even give him that. Hardback only brah.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 02:16
|
|
|
Habibi posted:"But how does it taste?" asked Rothfuss. I should be mad...but this was actually really cleverly done.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 02:22
|
|
|
Benson Cunningham posted:Hardback only brah. The hardback of WMF has much thinner paper than TNOTW to keep it from being too thick. So a failure on that front, too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 02:48
|
|
|
Ornamented Death posted:The hardback of WMF has much thinner paper than TNOTW to keep it from being too thick. So a failure on that front, too. It did smell good though. Which is 30% of how I review books. This means all audio and kindle books start out at 7/10.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 05:44
|
|
|
Benson Cunningham posted:It did smell good though. Which is 30% of how I review books. A pinch of sage placed in your Kindle cover will fix that problem good sir.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 07:04
|
|
|
Why do goons think Patrick Rothfuss is a bad writer?
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 07:47
|
|
|
Thoren posted:Why do goons think Patrick Rothfuss is a bad writer? "The [INANIMATE OBJECT] was [UNFITTING ADJECTIVE]." Play mad libs a couple hundred times and you have now written the Slow Regard of Silent Things.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 07:53
|
|
|
Thoren posted:Why do goons think Patrick Rothfuss is a bad writer? The second book being bad might have something to do with it,
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 07:54
|
|
|
Thoren posted:Why do goons think Patrick Rothfuss is a bad writer? I wouldn't necessarily say a bad writer, but his work ethic is sub-par.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 08:38
|
|
|
Thoren posted:Why do goons think Patrick Rothfuss is a bad writer? Wiseman's Fear was four different novels awkwardly cobbled together from the rotting remains of the novel Rothfuss wrote when he was in college, back when he was a real writer. Early career success has sapped his ability to create anything of worth, because some people need desperation and depression to drive them. Slow Regards was a giant neon sign declaring that Rothfuss had lost touch. It was a pretentious, masturbatory miscalculation that should have never seen the light of day, that his publisher agreed to put out just so they could have something to capitalize on while waiting for Rothfuss to stroke some life into the broken partial manuscript he sold to them as a nearly finished product. The foreword of that novella is an embarrassment. It is a career blunder that we may not see again in a lifetime of reading hack authors. I'm a writer myself, and I don't bear Rothfuss any ill-will. I wish I was as financially successful as he is. But if it cost me what I love about my art, I'd rather stay poor and unfellated. I'd rather have genuine fans that didn't drink the special snowflake cool-aid he's been ladling out to them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 09:16
|
|
|
Lottery of Babylon posted:"The [INANIMATE OBJECT] was [UNFITTING ADJECTIVE]." Isn't that just Auri's craziness? (I have not read that book.) Andrast posted:The second book being bad might have something to do with it, I liked it but it surprised me how many internet people enjoy Book 2 over Book 1.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 09:18
|
|
|
Thoren posted:Isn't that just Auri's craziness? (I have not read that book.) The entire book is Auri entering a room and describing a stretch of piping as rude, or a door as bashful, or a candle as scandalous, or a room as understanding its own nature. Then she moves onto the next room and does the same thing again. There is nothing else except a mention that she was raped and it was her fault but that's a good thing because it made her such a special snowflake fake edit: there's also a lot of narration about how tiny and childlike her body is, I think Rothfuss forgot that she's only supposed to be 10 years old mentally, not physically
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 09:34
|
|
|
Basically Slow Regard Of Silent Things has a more or less perfect name. Maybe a bit more emphasis on just how loving slow it is.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 10:03
|
|
|
Actual excerpt from The Slow Regard of Silent Things:quote:The Twelve was one of the rare changing places of the Underthing. It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to be itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true. so deep
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 10:24
|
|
|
Could anyone kindly explain what the hell does the last part actually mean?
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 10:47
|
|
|
Thoren posted:Why do goons think Patrick Rothfuss is a bad writer? Poor prose and poor storytelling. A better question: why does anyone think he is a good writer?
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 12:10
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:Poor prose and poor storytelling. The prose isn't terrible and thus doesn't distract you too much while reading. The story itself has enough drama and action to keep you reading and enough interesting ideas to keep you thinking about it. Its just if you think about it too hard it kind of all falls apart. Just want to restate that I am actually looking forward to book 3 and enjoyed the majority of Book 2.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 13:43
|
|
|
For me, it's not so much that he's a bad writer, it's just that he's not a great storyteller. TNotW is good enough, but is about 25% longer than it should be. WMF is an incohesive and, IIRC, unfocused slog that is about twice as long as it needs to be. There's enough, to me, that a decent enough story can be found in there, but it's so needlessly drawn out that is becomes a chore to get through. There's also a lot just going on with Kvothe himself. Him being a brilliant performer, a master arcanist and artificer, an unintentional namer, a natural-born lady-killer (except for one, of course), and constantly struggling to rub two coins of three or so available currencies together is a bit much. It makes the story feel unfocused, and means that any story being told also has the undercurrents of about 4 other stories as well. And there are enough loose threads at this point that I'd be surprised if even most of them are tied up in a satisfying way in Doors of Stone. I really do hope that Doors of Stone ends up being good. His writing on its own is fine, and I think the magic system is really great. But I'm just basically waiting for this thing to be over at this point, especially after TSRoST.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 15:10
|
|
|
I thought the first book was pretty good and funny and the second one was ok but had too many boring parts. SpacePig posted:There's also a lot just going on with Kvothe himself. Him being a brilliant performer, a master arcanist and artificer, an unintentional namer, a natural-born lady-killer (except for one, of course), and constantly struggling to rub two coins of three or so available currencies together is a bit much. well Kvothe is the one telling the story and he's an rear end in a top hat, I don't think we're supposed to just accept that he's as much of a brilliant musician and magician and ladykiller etc. as he says he is. His writing itself doesn't strike me as significantly better or worse than someone like Robert Jordan or George R. R. Martin. Like I said earlier, it's decent light entertainment. For fantasy IMO it's pretty good. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Dec 15, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 15:17
|
|
|
The tragedy is that Rothfuss is a decent writer, except when he tries to go for high-flying metaphor (and wit, usually). This results in absolute clunkers like "deadly as a sharp stone under swift water". This is obviously an impediment when you're trying to write fantasy. Rothfuss would probably be an acceptable writer if he stuck to realistic works and prose, but I suppose his whole writing career is built around the idea of being a Grand Loreweaver. This is why you shouldn't play D&D.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 15:29
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:well Kvothe is the one telling the story and he's an rear end in a top hat, I don't think we're supposed to just accept that he's as much of a brilliant musician and magician and ladykiller etc. as he says he is. The actual events in the story consistently bear out that Kvothe is brilliant in every field. He says he's a brilliant musician, and then wins his pipes in one attempt. He says he's a brilliant magician, and then has a 100% winrate in wizard duels and nukes an enemy camp. He says he's a brillant ladykiller because he's played lots of dating sims, and then he actually successfully woos his aunt for the Maer. He escapes from the sex elf by being so good at sex that she doesn't believe he's a virgin. If a character says he's the best tennis player in the world, we can easily write it off as untrue boasting. If that character wins several tennis tournaments, we cannot. It's possible that Kvothe has fabricated all the major events of the story: he never fought the draccus or the bandits, never worked for the Maer, never met the sex elf. But then there is nothing left and the entire series has no reason to exist. There's not much indication that Kvothe is unreliable except on the subject of what a perfect waifu Denna is.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 15:52
|
|
|
Lottery of Babylon posted:It's possible that Kvothe has fabricated all the major events of the story: he never fought the draccus or the bandits, never worked for the Maer, never met the sex elf. But then there is nothing left and the entire series has no reason to exist. Well fabricated or exaggerated. It's just a silly story, which is indeed the reason for the series itself to exist. quote:If a character says he's the best tennis player in the world, we can easily write it off as untrue boasting. If that character wins several tennis tournaments, we cannot. But we only have the character's word for it that they won those tournaments and how they did so. They could certainly be exaggerating their performance or number of wins, even if not outright making the events up. People do that a lot. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Dec 15, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 16:27
|
|
|
Lottery of Babylon posted:The actual events in the story consistently bear out that Kvothe is brilliant in every field. He says he's a brilliant musician, and then wins his pipes in one attempt. He says he's a brilliant magician, and then has a 100% winrate in wizard duels and nukes an enemy camp. He says he's a brillant ladykiller because he's played lots of dating sims, and then he actually successfully woos his aunt for the Maer. He escapes from the sex elf by being so good at sex that she doesn't believe he's a virgin. Lottery of Babylon posted:If a character says he's the best tennis player in the world, we can easily write it off as untrue boasting. If that character wins several tennis tournaments, we cannot. It's possible that Kvothe has fabricated all the major events of the story: he never fought the draccus or the bandits, never worked for the Maer, never met the sex elf. But then there is nothing left and the entire series has no reason to exist. Lottery of Babylon posted:There's not much indication that Kvothe is unreliable except on the subject of what a perfect waifu Denna is. Again, I'm not really holding out hope that this is the case, but if book 3 does turn out to be "Kvothe lied, Denna died" it's going to be surprising, not implausible, or at least it'll be implausible only because Rothfuss managed to trick us all into thinking he's a dipshit rather than someone cleverly setting up an unreliable narrator reveal. As far as I'm concerned the only real obstacle is the evil tree from book 2, which is probably going to be the excuse for everything bad happening (as opposed to the excuse book 1 set up, which is that Kvothe is actually just a shithead who is lying about 90% of this story).
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 16:44
|
|
|
I think in isolation the first book is good. The second book is so bad though that now everyone focuses on the flaws of the first book rather than its merits. If rothfuss had evolved as a writer and delivered a really fascinating second book, I think people would look back favorably on the first book too. He didn't though, so now we are here. Also Slow Regard, what even? That said, compare it to something like Lies of Locke Lamora. First book is ridiculously good. Second book is good. Third book is meh. That said, no one is throwing Lynch under the bus. Why? I would argue its because of how he interacts with his fan base online and in person.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 16:45
|
|
|
I don't think the second book would be nearly as bad overall if he hadn't done that whole sex elf sequence, I don't know wtf he was thinking with that, the rest of it was just too slow really.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 16:50
|
|
|
It's easy to propose interpretations that are not falsifiable. It's possible that the events of Harry Potter are all a hallucination of a lonely muggle boy who spent his life locked in the cupboard under the stairs. There's no particular reason to believe that's the case, but the text doesn't prove it's not the case either. But if someone said Harry Potter was bad because of its time-travel or whatever else nerds like to complain about, it would be silly to argue that the reason Harry Potter is actually good is because it was secretly all just a dream. Fans start with the conclusion that Kvothe isn't actually a mary sue because then the books would be bad and these books are obviously good. To justify this conclusion, they work backwards and decide he's an unreliable narrator, and therefore the series is good. TychoCelchuuu posted:This is like saying The Odyssey has no reason to exist because it's possible Odysseus made all that poo poo up. But that's the point. Odysseus's main character trait is prevarication, or, if we're being nicer, storytelling. Ditto for Kvothe. I don't think you've actually read the Odyssey. Earwicker posted:I don't think the second book would be nearly as bad overall if he hadn't done that whole sex elf sequence, I don't know wtf he was thinking with that, the rest of it was just too slow really. Even without the sex elf sequence, everything after the assassination arc is pretty bad. You have Kvothe successfully wooing his aunt, you have Kvothe wandering aimlessly in the woods for a month, you have Kvothe being trained by the sex ninjas, and you have Kvothe gently caressing some child sex slaves and massacring a dozen people for the crime of shoplifting ale. It's all meandering and nothing connects to anything else or has any real purpose (except maybe the ale massacre for some more kvothe=amyr setup). Lottery of Babylon fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Dec 15, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 17:00
|
|
|
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ I don't think Kvothe being an unreliable narrator would make it any better. It would just mean I wasted my time on reading a made up story about a made up story. The legends surrounding him have to come from somewhere, though, so I'm sure there's at least some truth in a lot of what he's telling, just with exaggeration. Benson Cunningham posted:I think in isolation the first book is good. The second book is so bad though that now everyone focuses on the flaws of the first book rather than its merits. If rothfuss had evolved as a writer and delivered a really fascinating second book, I think people would look back favorably on the first book too. I still really like the first book, and haven't let my thoughts on the second taint my experience. I was able to recount a significant amount of the first book, and some early parts of the second that I thought were in the first, while I was re-reading it. Everything after he leaves University in WMF is a complete mystery to me, though, except for the weirdly out of place sex sections, and learning some sort of fantasy karate from a mercenary. There's no clear antagonist set up, aside from the Chandrian maybe, and IIRC no active threat or conflict for Kvothe to deal with at this point. I honestly can't say what Doors of Stone might even be about, which is sort of a problem. The only thing I can say with any sort of certainty is that all his strength and apparent sex goodness is going to mean nothing to Denna, and it's going to make him do something stupid. Earwicker posted:I don't think the second book would be nearly as bad overall if he hadn't done that whole sex elf sequence, I don't know wtf he was thinking with that, the rest of it was just too slow really. Seriously. This is mostly what I mean why I say it's twice as long as it should be. There's the whole elf sex sequence, and the rest of the book is needlessly slow. Not a fun read. SpacePig fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Dec 15, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 17:01
|
|
|
Lottery of Babylon posted:Fans start with the conclusion that Kvothe isn't actually a mary sue because then the books would be bad and these books are obviously good. To justify this conclusion, they work backwards and decide he's an unreliable narrator, and therefore the series is good. I'm not saying him being an unreliable narrator makes the series good. I'm just saying it seems somewhat likely, given that he's literally the character telling the story and he seems like the kind of egotistical person who would grossly exaggerate their own achievements when telling their life story. I used to work for a publisher that did a lot of the whole ghost-written celeb memoir thing, and that's kind of how I took the story in this book, not that it's an outright lie but more the result of a formerly famous person sitting down and narrating their life story to a person who is actually making a book of it (the historian guy) and taking the chance to exaggerate their achievements and minimize or erase their flaws while they do so. It seems likely to me in the case of these books because I've seen it enough IRL and Kvothe definitely fits the "type". With this type of thing, a dude "spinning a yarn", the quality of the series depends on the quality of the yarn. Which, in the first book, was pretty entertaining, and in the second one, not so much, and with too much cringeworthy poo poo. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Dec 15, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 17:08
|
|
|
The problems of the second book go beyond the stupid sex elf nonsense. It just rehashes the first book's "Woe, I haven't a copper to my name!" money troubles. For me, he's just too good at things. The whole unreliable narrator doesn't do it because that only works in self-contained one book stories and has to be cleverly done. If Rothfuss did it then I'd feel like he was back-peddling. Book 1 isn't that good but Kvothe still had character flaws in it, he was arrogant, a superiority complex, didn't think things through, a temper, ect. but those seem to be washed away and book 2 bent itself backwards to prove that might Kvothe was always right. I recall him even using a "not all" defense against a rape victim's accusations, in which she back down on. It was disgusting. For a supposed feminist, he sure writes like a regressive creep.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 17:10
|
|
|
Jimbot posted:I recall him even using a "not all" defense against a rape victim's accusations, in which she back down on. It was disgusting. He literally says "Not all men," word for word. (He's not accused by the victim though.) There's also the part where he kills a woman who was alone in a group of like ten male sex slavers and feels bad about it, but then an old wise woman appears and tells him that actually he was totally right and the woman he killed was even worse than the actual rapists. Lottery of Babylon fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Dec 15, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 17:16
|
|
|
Lottery of Babylon posted:There's also the part where he kills a woman who was alone in a group of like ten male sex slavers and feels bad about it, but then an old wise woman appears and tells him that actually he was totally right and the woman he killed was even worse than the actual rapists. The thing is, making Kvothe an unreliable narrator is the only way the series can end with some dignity (for both author and readers). Sure, it'd come out completely out of the blue and offer the question of why the gently caress did we need the previous two books since they're playing him completely straight and there's no indication of anything more going on. But that's a failure in writing, not storytelling. As opposed to where it seems to be heading with the main theme of I AM BEST AT EVERYTHING, which delegates the whole thing deep into fanfic territory and its Mary Sues. Maybe people like that, I don't know, I'm just hoping it won't spawn a wave of long-winded wish-fulfillment fantasy being published because look what became a bestseller.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 17:41
|
|
|
Lottery of Babylon posted:He escapes from the sex elf by being so good at sex that she doesn't believe he's a virgin. There's also the possibility that Felurian is lying to him about how good he is, which would make sense since her schtick is to get guys to stay forever &  works better than  Lottery of Babylon posted:It's all meandering and nothing connects to anything else or has any real purpose (except maybe the ale massacre for some more kvothe=amyr setup). Honestly after reading the books I think this is kind of Kote's point. The "stories" you hear are heavily edited and massively truncated. You hear about him calling down the lightning; nobody tells the story about the month-long search beforehand that bore no fruit. You hear the tale of winning his pipes in one shot, not about how he tried to play a duet by himself & through a massive stroke of luck picked up a mystery partner who a) knew the song, b) recognized that he had no partner and was actively asking for one before the song ground to a halt without anyone to sing the other part & c) was talented enough to help him pull it off. How Kvothe is the youngest to join the University, and to have a negative tuition; not how he basically had a five year head start through Abenthy & still needed to lurk in the shadows to hear most of the questions answered before his interview. How Kvothe was Bloodless....via knowing he was going to be whipped and being fortunate enough to a) know an herb that would alleviate his pain and prevent blood loss, b) have that herb stocked in the local apothecary, c) have a friend to buy it for him & d) have enough money for it despite having no idea regarding how much it would cost. How did he get in the University? How did he get Adem training? He ran into the right person (Abenthy & Tempi), learned just enough to be dangerous and was then begrudgingly accepted into further education because the teacher(s) recognized that Kvothe knew enough to be associated with the group but not enough to be a good, responsible representation. As far as the unreliable narrator goes, I think he's plenty reliable. Kote's just telling the tale that for every brief moment of amazing awesomeness in Kvothe's life that lives on in a poem or a song, there's a shitton of planning and preparation that went into it & even then it usually relied on a fuckton of luck as well to not spectacularly explode in his face.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 17:57
|
|
|
Benson Cunningham posted:I think in isolation the first book is good. The second book is so bad though that now everyone focuses on the flaws of the first book rather than its merits. If rothfuss had evolved as a writer and delivered a really fascinating second book, I think people would look back favorably on the first book too. If Rothfuss had also delivered a *decent* (not necessarily great) third book by now, everyone would mostly have forgotten the second book.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 18:06
|
|
|
anilEhilated posted:Maybe people like that, I don't know, I'm just hoping it won't spawn a wave of long-winded wish-fulfillment fantasy being published because look what became a bestseller. lol you have it backwards. this became a bestseller at least in part because it's wish fulfillment fantasy, which is and long has been very common among bestsellers of many genres.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 18:09
|
|
|
So Kvothe is the most awesome person ever... but he worked to become the most awesome person ever? The more pressing question is what aesthetic goal this accomplishes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 18:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 12:59 |
|
|
Earwicker posted:lol
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2015 18:35
|
|