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mcmagic posted:Yeah but 7k people or so watch those streams. There is no way what he was doing wasn't worth 100k a year. That's completely ridiculous. 7k people isn't really anything. 10 times as many people watch hearthstone streams daily. Sports commenters make around that for something that millions of people listen to. Also 7k people that don't make any revenue from ads or anything on a service they stream for free. Not a good way to make a 6 figure income.
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Dec 15, 2015 16:32
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Errant Gin Monks posted:That's completely ridiculous. 7k people isn't really anything. 10 times as many people watch hearthstone streams daily. Sports commenters make around that for something that millions of people listen to. Sports commentators make way more than that...
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Dec 15, 2015 16:40
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mcmagic posted:Sports commentators make way more than that... 7k remains not a whole lot even by stream standards. 7k is enough for a lone streamer to make somewhere in the 60-80k range thereabouts. It sure as hell is not enough to warrant all the stuff that goes into running events like this. At bare minimum it isn't really enough to cover for the commentators and the support staff required for them.
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Dec 15, 2015 16:44
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mcmagic posted:Sports commentators make way more than that... Local ones don't, and they have a much bigger audience that's propped up by advertisement.
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Dec 15, 2015 16:53
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mcmagic posted:Sports commentators make way more than that... Sure ignore the rest of his post for that one tiny breadcrumb. 7k stream viewers is, by twitch streaming numbers for other games, not great. They aren't making poo poo off the stream. The stream is just a giant infomercial for the events. if you don't go to the events and spend money they aren't making money.
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Dec 15, 2015 16:53
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jassi007 posted:Sure ignore the rest of his post for that one tiny breadcrumb. 7k stream viewers is, by twitch streaming numbers for other games, not great. They aren't making poo poo off the stream. The stream is just a giant infomercial for the events. if you don't go to the events and spend money they aren't making money. That is also a bad argument. People who do infomercials/commercials make a lot of money.
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Dec 15, 2015 16:54
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Failboattootoot posted:7k remains not a whole lot even by stream standards. 7k is enough for a lone streamer to make somewhere in the 60-80k range thereabouts. It sure as hell is not enough to warrant all the stuff that goes into running events like this. At bare minimum it isn't really enough to cover for the commentators and the support staff required for them. SSG stream gets more than 7k viewers. They are more in the 15k-25k range which puts them high on the front page when they are online. This isn't League of legends numbers, but few things are. Considering how niche magic is, I think it is fairly impressive. Although I am sure the twitch $$ is nice, the stream doesn't exist for twitch dollars first. It exists to promote their events and their brand first. Putting a face on both of those things is a huge thing. The extra revenue generated from the stream translated to website sales and event revenue can't be underestimated and its probably quite substantial.
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Dec 15, 2015 16:55
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You guys realize you're arguing with mcmagic right?
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Dec 15, 2015 16:56
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Sickening posted:SSG stream gets more than 7k viewers. They are more in the 15k-25k range which puts them high on the front page when they are online. This isn't League of legends numbers, but few things are. Considering how niche magic is, I think it is fairly impressive. It probably isn't or else they wouldn't be cutting back events. I mean you're right, they run the stream to get people to buy cards from them, but I doubt it's generating enough interest if they are cutting back.
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Dec 15, 2015 16:57
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mcmagic posted:That is also a bad argument. People who do infomercials/commercials make a lot of money. My god you're dense lately. You only make money off commercials/infomercials if it causes people to spend money... The commercial it self is an expense not income. duh? Lieutenant Centaur posted:You guys realize you're arguing with mcmagic right? Yes. Sometimes I tell myself I like it, but really he just sucks me in with his ridiculous trolling. jassi007 fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 17:03
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Failboattootoot posted:It probably isn't or else they wouldn't be cutting back events. I mean you're right, they run the stream to get people to buy cards from them, but I doubt it's generating enough interest if they are cutting back. Have they posted why they are cutting back? Are sales down? Is event participation down? Has leadership in SSG changed? How substantially have they even cut back? Wait, I thought it was the MTG broadcast that was cutting back, is starcity doing that as well? Sickening fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 17:05
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jassi007 posted:My god your dense latley. You only make money off commercials/infomercials if it causes people to spend money... The commercial it self is an expense not income. duh? I put him and the bee guy on ignore a long time ago.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:08
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Chill la Chill posted:Oh is that true? I wish that meant people would play this game more chill-like and not seem like they're practicing for the next GP all the time, but somehow I feel like it's gonna have the opposite effect and cause more fierce competition, and accompanying behavior, for the few spots there are. It's more likely the game is contracting in popularity. For most of the games lifespan it has expanded and contracted in popularity in a cycle. The past 5-ish? years of continuous growth was pretty out of character. Get ready for 1000 "Magic is dying" posts over the next year or two before the game goes back on the upswing.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:12
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jassi007 posted:My god you're dense lately. You only make money off commercials/infomercials if it causes people to spend money... The commercial it self is an expense not income. duh? Read your own posts before you call me dense. We have no idea what SCG's income statement looks like but even if he can't get paid a decent salary from SCG he should definitely be able to work for WOTC since he's pretty widely viewed as the best at what he does. These are large organizations with big ad budgets.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:16
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Prediction: when it comes time for OOTGW development articles, maro will make a "diamonds are forever" pun, possibly as the title of an article.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:17
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Sickening posted:Have they posted why they are cutting back? Are sales down? Is event participation down? Has leadership in SSG changed? It is a lot of marketing speak to avoid saying things like "sales are down" http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/31833_.html They're reducing events overall, splitting the year into 3 seasons instead of 4, which cuts 1 invitational, and basically canceling all west coast events because travel costs etc. are to high. He even put a call to a large organizer who might want to run west coast events.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:17
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mcmagic posted:Read your own posts before you call me dense. We have no idea what SCG's income statement looks like but even if he can't get paid a decent salary from SCG he should definitely be able to work for WOTC since he's pretty widely viewed as the best at what he does. These are large organizations with big ad budgets. I think what was actually happening is that Patrick was already a contract employee for Activision who got moved to a permanent salaried position and ended up making more money without needing to work weekends.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:22
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mcmagic posted:Read your own posts before you call me dense. We have no idea what SCG's income statement looks like but even if he can't get paid a decent salary from SCG he should definitely be able to work for WOTC since he's pretty widely viewed as the best at what he does. These are large organizations with big ad budgets. You go on to say "we don't know what their income is like" then immediately conclude based off no facts that SCG wasn't paying him fairly for the work he did. He took another job. SCG is shrinking the scope of the open series, Cedric Phillips posted a few months ago about changes to the casting bench as he got promoted and won't be full time. I don't see this is anything other P. Sullivan taking a more secure long term employment. I don't know why you are jumping to some conclusion that SCG did wrong by him. I don't disagree that he'd have been a good pickup for WOTC for coverage, but lets be honest. WOTC is a good 'ol boys network. It is why Randy, who if you will recall got FIRED from WOTC yet he still does coverage and now wormed his way back in partially by taking over cube design for MTGO. I know his wife works there, but companies rarely if ever maintain a working relationship with people they've fired. Marshall got in because of Loucks and the podcast that propelled him in the GDS, I have no clue about BDM or Rashad but yeah, WOTC needs to do something about coverage, I'm sure they hear the feedback, and they give zero fucks more or less.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:23
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Quote not edit
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Dec 15, 2015 17:23
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jassi007 posted:It is a lot of marketing speak to avoid saying things like "sales are down" That's what I have seen thus far. To be honest I have never bought anything from SCG. they are too drat expensive. I watch them and enjoy heir streams and buy from tcgplayer when I see cards utilized in a way that I find interesting.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:24
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Cactrot posted:I think what was actually happening is that Patrick was a contract employee for Activision who got moved to a permanent salaried position and ended up making more money without needing to work weekends. This is probably what happened. I agree. But my point is that the chances that he's as good at whatever he's doing at Activision as he is at MTG Coverage is low and it sucks that he can't make a good living doing that.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:24
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Entropic posted:Prediction: when it comes time for OOTGW development articles, maro will make a "diamonds are forever" pun, possibly as the title of an article. Maro will have considered naming this article, presumably about the development of the mechanic, Conflicted Diamonds.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:25
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Errant Gin Monks posted:That's what I have seen thus far. To be honest I have never bought anything from SCG. they are too drat expensive. I watch them and enjoy heir streams and buy from tcgplayer when I see cards utilized in a way that I find interesting. I have once or twice, some sales or some prices are ok. I went to one open, and it was run well. I actually like SCG's booth at events, they often have mp-hp case with some stuff at good prices.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:26
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mcmagic posted:Read your own posts before you call me dense. We have no idea what SCG's income statement looks like but even if he can't get paid a decent salary from SCG he should definitely be able to work for WOTC since he's pretty widely viewed as the best at what he does. These are large organizations with big ad budgets. If you think WOTC is going to pay out $60k/year to PSully to do the Pro tours when like the Pro Tour Pots are $120k/year combined you are kinda delusional. Commentating this game is a part time job and given that PSully has been a game designer for many years, prior to his commentary run, he probably is just as excited to be working in that field than streaming. The dude likely has bigger aspirations in life than "better at talking about magic than Randy Buehler"
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Dec 15, 2015 17:26
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jassi007 posted:I have once or twice, some sales or some prices are ok. I went to one open, and it was run well. I actually like SCG's booth at events, they often have mp-hp case with some stuff at good prices. OH I guess in have traded for some HP revised duals at their booth. Sigma-X posted:If you think WOTC is going to pay out $60k/year to PSully to do the Pro tours when like the Pro Tour Pots are $120k/year combined you are kinda delusional. Welcome back Sigma. This is much better than your C hate,
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Dec 15, 2015 17:27
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jassi007 posted:You go on to say "we don't know what their income is like" then immediately conclude based off no facts that SCG wasn't paying him fairly for the work he did. He took another job. SCG is shrinking the scope of the open series, Cedric Phillips posted a few months ago about changes to the casting bench as he got promoted and won't be full time. I don't see this is anything other P. Sullivan taking a more secure long term employment. I don't know why you are jumping to some conclusion that SCG did wrong by him. And yea, SCG commentating money was probably not worth the huge travel/time commitment it took. Patrick likely jumped at the opportunity to transition to a full-time job with advancement opportunities and benefits.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:28
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Entropic posted:Prediction: when it comes time for OOTGW development articles, maro will make a "diamonds are forever" pun, possibly as the title of an article. If I still wrote for Cranial Insertion....
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Dec 15, 2015 17:40
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The Artist Formerly Known As {1}
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Dec 15, 2015 17:47
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Hedron is Unbreakable
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Dec 15, 2015 17:51
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◇ Is Not Crash 
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Dec 15, 2015 18:05
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mcmagic posted:That is also a bad argument. People who do infomercials/commercials make a lot of money. You know zero information about this. Shut up.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:08
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En Fuego posted:You know zero information about this. Shut up. This post really added a ton to the discussion. Thanks for it.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:12
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7k viewers = $100,000 not even own3d tv was offering rates that good and they went bankrupt partly because they paid streamers too much lmao
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Dec 15, 2015 18:12
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mcmagic posted:This post really added a ton to the discussion. Thanks for it. Yours had misinformation, so technically it added more than what you gave. You're welcome for it.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:13
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Zoness posted:7k viewers = $100,000 You don't see the difference between what he was doing and someone who is a self employed streamer? mcmagic fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 18:14
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Infomercials are basically tv shows, they make money by selling advertising time.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:16
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mcmagic posted:You don't see the difference between what he was doing and someone who is a self employees streamer? I mean, it's way more useful to go by quantifiable metrics than assumed values. I don't know what Pete Hoefling or Ben Bleiweiss are paying Patrick Sullivan but I can tell how much the stream itself is worth (not a ton). And they're pulling in like fractions of any video game tournament stream in viewercount. As a viewer and a fan of patrick sullivan it's easy to feel like his work is valuable but as someone writing that contract the goal is to minmax how much good coverage you can get for how much money you're willing to pay and given SCG's track record of keeping quality players on payroll RIP. Anyway I was bored and I wanted to see if anything else came up with the leaks and I saw this post: quote:The entirety (IIRC) of New Phyrexia was spoiled by some players who got an advance set for playtesting purposes. They received a lifetime DCI ban if I'm not mistaken. I think that even was ultimately responsible for WOTC's deciding to spoil cards themselves gradually. I don't know how someone gets every sentence in a post factually wrong but there you are. Zoness fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 18:25
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Why did Randy Buehler get fired?
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Dec 15, 2015 18:57
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mcmagic posted:You don't see the difference between what he was doing and someone who is a self employees streamer? I don't think anyone is arguing that he should be paid handsomely for being good at what he does, but do you really think SCG is going to pay $120k/yr for commentary (60k/yr for Psully+Cedric). Not like, "in a just world" or anything, but do you think SCG is going to put that kind of money into their stream? Between prize pools, accommodations, staffing, and the rest of the infrastructure that SCG has to shell out per event, they likely aren't making much on the event itself - the fact that the increased travel costs to hit the west coast, which are probably adding about $3k extra (call it 8-10 extra hotel room nights, food, and gas) makes it no longer financially viable for them to hit the west coast, their east coast margins can't be more than a few grand per event. While each of those side event win a boxes brings in $160 for each $60 box they are selling, that $100 has to cover the judge, admin, accomodations, etc. Now this is fine, because breaking even on the event is completely fine because we are disregarding the booth economy, which is vital both for buying and selling cards, and the event is there entirely to create the booth economy. I'm sure they make some money on these events but I don't think it's really that much - there's a reason most events are run by stores and that's because the booth economy makes up for the low margins on the event. Let's say SCG pays PSully and Cedric $15k/year each already to do commentary (this is probably high, but we'll use it as a baseline for our math) and we'll assume that involves them doing 50 weeks a year of commentary to keep our numbers easy to math. We will set the target wage to $60k/year, which is a number chosen for no other reason other than a designer with PSully's experience can command that much salary pretty easily based upon game development industry statistics that are regularly available. 50 events making $3k each means there is an additional $150k in the budget to spend. To crank them both up to $60k, we have to spend $90k a year. This is doable, but it reduces the money made off the events themselves to $60k/year, which is a small margin for the amount of overhead that goes into planning and running these events that we didn't account for in our costs (all the work done "at home base," including site management, planning and contracting efforts, tournament tool development, etc). 50 events making $2k each means there is an additional $100k in the budget to spend. To crank them both up to $60k, we have to spend $90k a year. It also reduces the margin for events to $10k, which is not enough at this point to support all of the "home base" work being done, and means that now the events are loss leaders and are now risky, because any time they break even or worse on booth economy, they're losing money to run the event. 50 events making $1k each means there is an additional $50k in the budget to spend, and we simply can't afford to hit $60k.
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Dec 15, 2015 19:00
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fadam posted:Why did Randy Buehler get fired? we can get to that later i have an update just in on the top fifty in the race for player of the year!!!
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