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Shoren posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but when did Trump say anything about exiling, what I assume to be, American citizens because of their religion? I can make up with a hundred heartbreaking stories about children misinterpreting the news just to tug on your heartstrings. Trump did say that any Muslim American citizens outside the country when the order went into effect would be prevented from returning. Though you're right that he's never called for mass deportations of Muslims the way he has for illegal immigrants. Tei posted:Source: This is great. You can tell that whoever wrote this just copied and pasted names from a list of countries sorted by the Muslim proportion of the population without doing any research at all. quote:From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. Run for your lives! They want to be able to buy specially prepared food! Which is pretty much the same as kosher food, which for some reason nobody ever complains about. quote:At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare: Um, I'm pretty sure that way more of that stuff happened to Bosnian Muslims than was carried out by Bosnian Muslims. quote:From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels: What? Albania is the most secular Muslim-majority country in the world. There was persecution of all religions in the 1960s by the Communist government, but nowadays no one cares enough to even think about persecuting anyone, let alone implementing Sharia Law.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:12
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Omi-Polari posted:But Saudi Arabia also incubates and exports religious extremism into war-torn countries. It's not a coincidence Saudis make up the largest single group of ISIS suicide bombers. But those are different criticisms. Saudi Arabia supports extremist militants throughout the region, but this is not inextricably tied to their domestic policies any more than our foreign policy is tied to acceptance of homosexuality, abortion and divorce.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:14
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SedanChair posted:But those are different criticisms. Saudi Arabia supports extremist militants throughout the region, but this is not inextricably tied to their domestic policies any more than our foreign policy is tied to acceptance of homosexuality, abortion and divorce. Let me quote from a recent Brookings report: quote:The sectarianism that Saudi Arabia uses to contain its own as well as Bahrain's Shiite populations, and rally support for its geopolitical ambitions, especially its rivalry with Iran, has fuelled the problem [referring to I.S. attacks inside Saudi Arabia]. Saudi recruits for al-Qaida and the Islamic State are often motivated by a desire to contain Shiism and stem Iranian influence in the region – strategic objectives that Saudi media perpetuates ad infinitum.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:27
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PT6A posted:You seem to be missing the point: evolution does not tell anyone to do anything. No theory does. Yes, it's flawed inasmuch as the conclusions some people drew from it were awful. When theories are flawed, we change them and fix them. That flaw does not make evolution bad or wrong, no more than Islam's own flaws make Islam itself bad or wrong. Plenty of theories tell people to do things. Just look at all those people who adjust their diets constantly to fit the nutritional fad of the month. No, the giant floating head of science didn't descend from the clouds and proclaim that Thou Must Not Eat Trans Fats or whatever, but if the theory states that acting in a certain way will most likely lead to an outcome the person considers positive (for example, loving longer by not eating a certain thing), then they will act in that way because their understanding of the theory says that they should. It's not much different from fundamentalists who think that God will curse their society and bring all manner of calamities on them if they tolerate homosexuality. They don't do it "because Islam told me to", they do it because they believe that lots of negative things will happen if they don't - just as eugenicists believed that letting poor people and minorities live was destroying society. Fundamentally, the gap between fundamentalists who want to institute sharia law to rejuvenate society and eugenicists who wanted to sterilize people to rejuvenate society where closer than most people realize. I don't care if Islam is perfect or not, although the very fact that you can call a religion "flawed" because it doesn't match your personal belief set makes me doubt your ability to argue this in good faith. The reason I disagree with you is that you haven't actually proved that the things you are complaining about stem from Islam rather than any of the other groups, belief systems, etc that the people who do those things are involved in! If only the Wahabbist understanding of Islam declares some restriction, then the issue there is with "Wahabbism", not "Islam", and I'm taking issue with you tarring all of Islam for the crimes of the Wahabbists. It's like saying "VW cheated on emissions standards, which is a problem with the entire car industry everywhere".
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Dec 15, 2015 18:46
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Main Paineframe posted:It's like saying "VW cheated on emissions standards, which is a problem with the entire car industry everywhere". That's a bad analogy because it's very probably a problem with the entire car industry.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:58
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Cat Mattress posted:That's a bad analogy because it's very probably a problem with the entire car industry. I have a problem with the entire religious thing. [size="small"]But I don't hate anyone. [/size] Tei fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 19:07
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PT6A posted:Of course! It should go without saying that I'm only criticizing the flaws if and when they are actually present. This doesn't make any sense, then, to talk about "Islam" having flaws or not, because Islam doesn't exist like that. That's what people keep telling you. You're never just criticizing 'islam' or pointing out a flaw in "Islam". quote:
So you're saying absolutely nothing about Islam, then, right? It's not just Christianity or Judaism, it's a ton of other cultures too without any religious impetus. quote:EDIT: And again, I'm not saying that means that Islam is bad. Just that it has some very flawed elements, born largely of the sociopolitical context of 1500 years ago. I don't know why people are working so diligently to twist this into some kind of Islamophobia on my part. Because you keep really weirdly admitting Islam isn't a monolithic whole and then saying stuff like "Islam has some very flawed elements". Islam doesn't have flawed elements except to the extent absolutely everything does so it's an absurd observation to make or to think is important. There is no reason or value in criticizing "Islam". You can't do it. Tei posted:I have a problem with the entire religious thing. Plenty of societies are wildly homophobic and misogynistic without a religious impetus for it. It's almost like religion isn't a real supernatural force, but just another part of culture, no different from the rest.
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Dec 15, 2015 19:34
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Obdicut posted:Plenty of societies are wildly homophobic and misogynistic without a religious impetus for it. It's almost like religion isn't a real supernatural force, but just another part of culture, no different from the rest. I don't like many cultures, either.
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Dec 15, 2015 19:47
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I think FGM is a pretty clear indictment of Islam as it is practice today.
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Dec 15, 2015 19:57
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Tei posted:I don't like many cultures, either. You don't have to say 'either'. Religion isn't different. shrike82 posted:I think FGM is a pretty clear indictment of Islam as it is practice today. It's a pretty clear indictment of your bizarreness, given that there's huge areas of Islam where FGM is not practiced, and areas where Islam isn't where it is. It's not something that stems from Islam, it predates it, demonstrably. Always one of the more ignorant and odd attacks on Islam to see, though.
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Dec 15, 2015 19:58
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Seriously, are you defending FGM? It's a pretty disgusting "cultural" practice and always peculiar to see people defend it in an effort to defend fundamentalist islam. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 15, 2015 20:00
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shrike82 posted:Seriously, are you defending FGM? Nope. Nothing i said is in any way a defense of FGM, as is super obvious by me not saying a single thing defending FGM. I forget, are you a gimmick poster who pretends to be real dumb or something?
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Dec 15, 2015 20:01
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shrike82 posted:I think FGM is a pretty clear indictment of Islam as it is practice today. FGM isn't an Islamic thing, though.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:03
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Is it common in non-islamic cultures?
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Dec 15, 2015 20:03
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shrike82 posted:Is it common in non-islamic cultures? Yes. Or, depending on how you define common, it's not common in Islamic cultures.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:07
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Jesus, a quick google seems to show that it's most prevalent in muslim MENA. Not exactly a good look for Islam.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:08
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http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/oct/02/reza-aslan/fact-checking-reza-aslans-retort-bill-maher/shrike82 posted:Jesus, a quick google seems to show that it's most prevalent in muslim MENA. Not exactly a good look for Islam. No.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:12
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FGM is incredibly common among Christians in North Africa. In Egypt, Coptic Christians practice it at the same rate as Muslims. In Nigeria, it's actually more common among Christians (31% of Catholics, 27% of Protestants) than it is among Muslims (7%). Meanwhile, it is virtually unknown in Iran, Iraq, and Turkey - with the exception of the Kurds, who are supposedly more secular than anyone else in the region.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:12
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Nevvy Z posted:http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/oct/02/reza-aslan/fact-checking-reza-aslans-retort-bill-maher/ quote:So the countries in which female genital cutting is a practice are mostly Muslim, but they are not exclusively Muslim. OK....
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Dec 15, 2015 20:14
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shrike82 posted:Jesus, a quick google seems to show that it's most prevalent in muslim MENA. Not exactly a good look for Islam. Yes, it looks very bad for Islam if you selectively fail to take into account the vast Islamic diaspora all over the world that doesn't practice it and views it as abhorrent. Good point.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:14
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shrike82 posted:Jesus, a quick google seems to show that it's most prevalent in muslim MENA. Not exactly a good look for Islam. A quick check of my knowledge of how to think about poo poo shows that prevalence isn't actually a good measure of much, though. If Islam is what produces FGM, why are there Muslim societies with almost no or almost no FGM? Why are there Christian areas that perform it? Wow it's almost like it's a cultural practice that existed before Islam and exists outside it too.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:15
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shrike82 posted:OK.... I wonder if all those countries have anything else in common besides some of them being Muslim (and some of them not being Muslim). Nope, not even going to look at other possible common factors or sources that could be driving the practice! Just going to blame Islam for FGM, in spite of the fact that non-Muslim countries do it too, many Muslim countries don't do it, and there are other fairly obvious common factors for the practice to originate from!
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Dec 15, 2015 20:35
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This is pretty frightening stuff. https://islamqa.info/en/45528 quote:Could you explain me what is the medical benefit of girl’s circumcision?.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:37
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shrike82 posted:This is pretty frightening stuff. Yeah, those Egyptian Coptic Christians sure are bad for doing FGM, aren't they? I'm glad the overwhelmingly Muslim country of Niger barely has any incidences of it, though, that's cool. Maybe the Christians in Egypt can follow those Muslims' example.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:40
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Fun fact: when Daesh of all people were accused of practicing FGM, their response boiled down to a slightly fancier "no, go gently caress yourself" - which given the other poo poo they brag about and justify in their stupid monthly magazine and videos, I am inclined to believe is an honest response. It's also a thing their mouthpieces have bitched about in Egypt.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:44
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Wait, we're taking Daesh as a spokesperson for what islam constitutes? I think some people would take issue with that.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:47
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shrike82 posted:This is pretty frightening stuff. Youre a goddamn retard "The African Journal of Urology posted:
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Dec 15, 2015 20:55
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We've seen a handful of moderate clerics issue fatwas against stuff like FGM and terrorism but it's pretty clear that the wider religious body isn't listening considering how both is so prevalent in the Middle East.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:59
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shrike82 posted:Wait, we're taking Daesh as a spokesperson for what islam constitutes? I think some people would take issue with that. I am saying that even on the crazy fringe there are people who despise fgm. It goes well with the part where a pretty substantial majority of Muslims - you might even say the mainstream - also condemn fgm, which would suggest that it is a localized (if in a wide locale) cultural thing that people just try to justify.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:04
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I'm inclined to believe shrike82 is not posting in good faith!
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Dec 15, 2015 21:06
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That doesn't make any sense. Daesh practices sexual slavery which is endemic in many parts of the muslim world. By your reasoning, this means that it's a "mainstream" islamic view?
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Dec 15, 2015 21:06
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shrike82 posted:We've seen a handful of moderate clerics issue fatwas against stuff like FGM and terrorism but it's pretty clear that the wider religious body isn't listening considering how both is so prevalent in the Middle East. If you want someone to denounce terrorism and have terrorists listen it will have to be a Wahhabist that does so. Asking anyone else to do it would be like asking a Quaker to take the canonical pronouncements of the Pope as gospel.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:06
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shrike82 posted:We've seen a handful of moderate clerics issue fatwas against stuff like FGM and terrorism but it's pretty clear that the wider religious body isn't listening considering how both is so prevalent in the Middle East.  Ethiopians are also into some serious bride-napping. This conversation about FGM is stupid. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 21:13
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Krowley posted:I'm inclined to believe shrike82 is not posting in good faith! He's a horrifying racist.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:13
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drilldo squirt posted:He's a horrifying racist. Unless you equate Islam with Arabs, that's a pretty peculiar statement to be making.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:17
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This is dumb instead read Shadi Hamid who is one of the smartest American experts on Islamism:quote:ISIS draws on, and draws strength from, ideas that have broad resonance among Muslim-majority populations. They may not agree with ISIS’s interpretation of the caliphate, but the notion of a caliphate—the historical political entity governed by Islamic law and tradition—is a powerful one, even among more secular-minded Muslims. The caliphate, something that hasn’t existed since 1924, is a reminder of how one of the world’s great civilizations endured one of the more precipitous declines in human history. The gap between what Muslims once were and where they now find themselves is at the center of the anger and humiliation that drive political violence in the Middle East. But there is also a sense of loss and longing for an organic legal and political order that succeeded for centuries before its slow but decisive dismantling. Ever since, Muslims, and particularly Arab Muslims, have been struggling to define the contours of an appropriate post-caliphate political model. quote:If ISIS and what will surely be a growing number of imitators are to be defeated, then statehood—and, more importantly, states that are inclusive and accountable to their own people—are essential. The state-centric order in the Arab world, for all its artificiality and arbitrariness, is preferable to ungoverned chaos and permanently contested borders. But for the Westphalian system to survive in the region, Islam, or even Islamism, may be needed to legitimate it. To drive even the more pragmatic, participatory variants of Islamism out of the state system would be to doom weak, failing states and strong, brittle ones alike to a long, destructive cycle of civil conflict and political violence.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:22
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quote:In contrast, the early Christian community, as Princeton historian Michael Cook notes, “lacked a conception of an intrinsically Christian state” and was willing to coexist with and even recognize Roman law. For this reason, among others, the equivalent of ISIS simply couldn’t exist in Christian-majority societies. Neither would the pragmatic, mainstream Islamist movements that oppose ISIS and its idiosyncratic, totalitarian take on the Islamic polity. While they have little in common with Islamist extremists, in both means and ends, the Muslim Brotherhood and its many descendants and affiliates do have a particular vision for society that puts Islam and Islamic law at the center of public life. The vast majority of Western Christians—including committed conservatives—cannot conceive of a comprehensive legal-social order anchored by religion. However, the vast majority of, say, Egyptians and Jordanians can and do. Apparently this guy never heard of the Puritans (or the Taiping Rebellion for that matter) or the English Civil Wars or the long history of Christian religion being directly integrated into the medieval governing apparatus, or the endless jockeying between Popes and Emperors. While there are some interesting debates that could be had about the differences between Islamic and Christian attitudes toward government the specific historical claim this guy is making is incredibly spurious, as is often the case when political scientists working in the think tank world try to make sweeping historical assessments. The rise of political Islam probably has less to do with the ancient doctrines of the religion and more to do with the fact that all the other viable ideologies got destroyed and also a bunch of governments like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan were actively funding radical Islamic schools and organizations. This guy's analysis -- or at least the parts you've quoted -- is is the equivalent of someone analyzing the rise of the Nazis by talking exclusively about Friedrich the Great and the history of German antisemitism, while never mentioning the World War I, the Great Depression or the rise of the Communists.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:35
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shrike82 posted:That doesn't make any sense. Daesh practices sexual slavery which is endemic in many parts of the muslim world. By your reasoning, sex slavery is particularly Islamic, and by correct reasoning it is not.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:35
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The Caliphate is contentious even among Muslims, there's no "majority consensus" There is an alternate Caliphate that exists in Iran in the Shi'ite tradition, and even the Ottoman Caliphate was considered by some to be illegitimate.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:40
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shrike82 posted:That doesn't make any sense. Daesh practices sexual slavery which is endemic in many parts of the muslim world. Bzzt no, learn to read. The mainstream condemns it, a large chunk of crazy fundamentalists condemn it, therefore it is neither inherently a product of crazy fundamentalism nor of mainstream Islam, therefore something else is going on, therefore don't tar Islam as a whole. Or even crazy fundamentalist Islam, I guess, there are plenty of other reasons it is poo poo. I am completely in support of pushing back against it in the cultures and regions where it is endemic and quite like that there are lots of mainstream scholars (and some crazy fundamentalist ones) who can argue against it being a demand inherent to Islam.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:43
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