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freebooter posted:I get where you're coming from - the guy put an Islamic State flag up for gently caress's sake. But the Wikipedia page has a long segment on "debate whether this is a terrorism event" for a good reason. When you read about the guy's history it's hard not to think that he wasn't just a fruit loop who, because of his cultural background and personal history, happened to latch onto Islamic extremism as a cause du jour. (Which of course raises the question of how we define mental problems, and how many "terrorists" had mental problems.) But nothing happens in isolation. You can be a Muslim radical (with legitimate grievances!) and also be a lunatic, and that raises the sticky question of how we separate those two when defining the act itself. Actually he requested an isis flag during the siege because he didn't have one himself. That to me reveals that it was all sort of a last minute ploy to seem scarier than he really was. And most terrorists don't have any mental issues except perhaps a bit of PTSD from seeing their families killed by drones etc.
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Dec 15, 2015 15:53
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The subjective mental state of the person committing the act doesn't change the objective characterisation of their actions as terrorism hth
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Dec 15, 2015 18:11
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Monis was a terrorist in the same way Bryant was a terrorist. It's just that Monis had many more years of the media screaming about Daesh and was brown.
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Dec 15, 2015 19:50
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freebooter posted:Can someone give me a rundown of why the economy is going into so much debt? I'm assuming it's a bit more complicated than the trifecta of a squandered mining boom, unwillingness to cut middle class/Western Sydney welfare, and the overpriced housing market? Lower iron ore prices means less tax taken from mining companies and lower wages means less tax taken as income tax. The Abbott government's policy of not diversifying the economy (although to be fair this was a trend started under Howard and continued under the ALP) has left us exposed to fluctuations in the Digging poo poo Out Of The Ground And Flogging It To China industry, and their policy of reducing wage inflation (i.e. making people earn less to keep labor costs down) has had the obvious predictable results.
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Dec 15, 2015 19:54
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Seems like Monis is being used as a bit of a political football to justify preconceptions about muslims or something, with the left adamant that his mental health problems disqualifies him from being a terrorist and the right happy to milk it to add fuel to their brown panic fire.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:16
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freebooter posted:I guess what I'm saying is that for me, I think terrorism has to be purely ideological For me it's this. Monis was just dumb and confused about what he was even doing. He was trying to be a part of something he saw on the TV, he has no other ties.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:31
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freebooter posted:For a greenie like me stripping coal subsidies seems like a no-brainer, but then... like, why are we giving them in the first place? How much of our electricity comes from coal? Do they actually need those subsidies to run the industry and supply us with power?
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Dec 15, 2015 22:39
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Sometimes I feel like it's just expectancy effects - people expect radical Muslims so will take any opportunity to validate their own beliefs.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:47
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Birb Katter posted:Monis was a terrorist in the same way Bryant was a terrorist. It's just that Monis had many more years of the media screaming about Daesh and was brown. I would not characterise Bryant as a terrorist, and it's not because he was white. His violence had no ideological motive behind it. (Anders Breivik, on the other hand, is very much a terrorist.)
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Dec 15, 2015 23:27
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Isn't a big part of terrorism the threat of more terrorism? Which is why it's effective, and why you need to be part of a wider political movement to be a terrorist. If you're just some random guy who's not part of a wider movement, like Brevik, then no matter how horrific your actions once it's over it's over people can start to get on with their lives. If you're in ISIS or Al Qaeda or the IRA or FARC or whatever and you blow something up people keep worrying about when it'll happen next.
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Dec 15, 2015 23:37
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freebooter posted:I would not characterise Bryant as a terrorist, and it's not because he was white. His violence had no ideological motive behind it. (Anders Breivik, on the other hand, is very much a terrorist.) It's almost like I was saying Monis wasn't a terrorist and was just a sick gently caress.
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Dec 15, 2015 23:39
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As natural resources diminish, globally we will be pushed towards a fascist society where people put the need for food on the family table over the health of the planet and endless war becomes the norm as traditional channels of diplomacy collapse as nationhood requires resources to be maintained. At the centre of this bleak future is you.
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Dec 16, 2015 00:30
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Birb Katter posted:It's almost like I was saying Monis wasn't a terrorist and was just a sick gently caress. Sorry, I thought you were arguing that both Monis and Bryant were terrorists. There is definitely a school of thought which says all mass shooters are terrorists - which I disagree with but serves as a useful way of illustrating how ridiculous it is that America will go apeshit trying to prevent another San Bernardino but doesn't give a gently caress about Aurora/Virginia Tech/Sandy Hook etc. open24hours posted:Isn't a big part of terrorism the threat of more terrorism? Which is why it's effective, and why you need to be part of a wider political movement to be a terrorist. If you're just some random guy who's not part of a wider movement, like Brevik, then no matter how horrific your actions once it's over it's over people can start to get on with their lives. If you're in ISIS or Al Qaeda or the IRA or FARC or whatever and you blow something up people keep worrying about when it'll happen next. This is also true, except I'd argue that Breivik was part of a wider movement, just a non-organised one. Ditto abortion clinic shooters.
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Dec 16, 2015 00:32
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whole bunch of reclaimers and UPF duders fantasizing about the "inevitable civil war" where the glorious right-wing ubermensch will finally crush those drat limp-wristed lefties and return Australia to it's former pure glory.
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Dec 16, 2015 00:34
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open24hours posted:Isn't a big part of terrorism the threat of more terrorism? Which is why it's effective, and why you need to be part of a wider political movement to be a terrorist. If you're just some random guy who's not part of a wider movement, like Brevik, then no matter how horrific your actions once it's over it's over people can start to get on with their lives. If you're in ISIS or Al Qaeda or the IRA or FARC or whatever and you blow something up people keep worrying about when it'll happen next. That is the definition of terrorism that I grew up with. The ideology wasn't the core, it was built around the injustice of occupation or some other injustice, and the goals of terrorist acts were to free dissidents and return homelands. Then suicide-bombing became popular, but they weren't called terrorism that I recall until 9/11 gave the excuse to do so, mainly because suicide-bombers were specifically people who had no other form of protest than to blow themselves up on enemy property, they were just "bombings", and that's what bombings were called unless a terrorist organization claimed responsibility. Now "terrorism" is being manipulated to provide "oh dear" moments without the repercussions of the obvious security failures that incidents like Martin Place are. Monis was a security failure not a terrorist. A classic case of security theatre covering up a reluctance to do their job and get easy credit. It's also particularly stupid from a security standpoint because once everything is "terrorism", you run out of sane responses and your failures are even more obvious. If you can't call Brevik a terrorist then case closed on Monis.
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Dec 16, 2015 00:35
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http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/graffiti-vandals-could-face-jail-for-illshaped-swastika-at-midland-gate-shops-20151215-gloas3.htmlquote:Graffiti vandals could face jail for ill-shaped swastika at Midland Gate shops  
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Dec 16, 2015 01:58
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Vladimir Poutine posted:http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/graffiti-vandals-could-face-jail-for-illshaped-swastika-at-midland-gate-shops-20151215-gloas3.html That's not a swastika, it's a snake-person. Leave it to the PC Nazis to screw that one up 
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Dec 16, 2015 02:01
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Vladimir Poutine posted:http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/graffiti-vandals-could-face-jail-for-illshaped-swastika-at-midland-gate-shops-20151215-gloas3.html 
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Dec 16, 2015 02:03
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Why is the definition of terrorism so important anyway? This whole stupid argument started because someone implied people shouldn't be upset that a gunman took people hostage in the Sydney CBD and two people died as a result. Even if Monis wasn't a "terrorist" however you want to define it, it doesn't really make what happened matter any more or less. Vladimir Poutine posted:http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/graffiti-vandals-could-face-jail-for-illshaped-swastika-at-midland-gate-shops-20151215-gloas3.html loving lol indeed. Not surprised it's Midland.
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Dec 16, 2015 02:03
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EXAKT Science posted:That's not a swastika, it's a snake-person. Leave it to the PC Nazis to screw that one up Haha, I can see it now. Snekbro has a shield out and everything.
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Dec 16, 2015 02:03
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Birb Katter posted:Haha, I can see it now. Snekbro has a shield out and everything. #NagaLivesMatter
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Dec 16, 2015 02:05
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MonoAus posted:Why is the definition of terrorism so important anyway? This whole stupid argument started because someone implied people shouldn't be upset that a gunman took people hostage in the Sydney CBD and two people died as a result. It does though, it goes from being an isolated incident to something that fuels racial tensions dramatically. This sort of poo poo is how you radicalise a population and it then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
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Dec 16, 2015 02:05
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Birb Katter posted:Haha, I can see it now. Snekbro has a shield out and everything. We must secure the existence of our serpents and a future for snake eggs.
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Dec 16, 2015 02:10
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hooman posted:We must secure the existence of our serpents and a future for snake eggs. quote:Not all snakes lay eggs, you raccccisssssssst 
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Dec 16, 2015 02:12
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EXAKT Science posted:_____________________________________________________________________________/ 
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Dec 16, 2015 02:21
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Just when you thought it was safe to send Australians on a diplomatic mission (yes you had been drugged and your signature is an obvious forgery):- http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-16/australian-delegation-to-west-bank-%27very-explosive%27/7032084 quote:Delegation to West Bank led by Christopher Pyne 'not well educated', local minister says By Middle East correspondent Sophie McNeill Updated about an hour ago We couldn't do anything as stupid as send Minister Christopher Pyne, former speaker Bronwyn Bishop and Human Rights Commissioner Tim Wilson to a Middle East hot spot could we? Well looks like we can do a bunch of dumb stuff even without their direct involvement! http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-15/audio-captures-raaf-challenging-chinese-navy-in-south-china-sea/7030076 quote:South China Sea: Audio reveals RAAF plane issuing warning to Chinese Navy during 'freedom of navigation' flight By defence and national security reporter Andrew Greene and China correspondent Bill Birtles A quick word on terrorism and the definition etc. thereof. The terrorist goal is to cause disproportionate reaction from the opponent whom it is facing in asymmetric warfare. That's the mechanism via which it delivers its payload, terror. Faced with these threats the larger powers have reacted by taking measures that actually amplify the terror message because this suits their authoritarian agenda. That is why what is and isn't labelled 'terror' matters and why those who immediately label stuff as terror related are to be held in suspicion if not outright contempt. The terror drum is even more easily beaten by those who have the means to manipulate the population directly.
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Dec 16, 2015 02:47
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has been criticised by a Minister in the Palestinian Authority, who said the group had "false information" and were "not well educated".
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Cartoon posted:A quick word on terrorism and the definition etc. thereof. The terrorist goal is to cause disproportionate reaction from the opponent whom it is facing in asymmetric warfare. That's the mechanism via which it delivers its payload, terror. Faced with these threats the larger powers have reacted by taking measures that actually amplify the terror message because this suits their authoritarian agenda. That is why what is and isn't labelled 'terror' matters and why those who immediately label stuff as terror related are to be held in suspicion if not outright contempt. The terror drum is even more easily beaten by those who have the means to manipulate the population directly. I would say an important part of the definition of terrorism would include that the acts are designed to have a political outcome or impact. If there is no intended political outcome or impact, then it is just plain old murder. Most middle eastern groups committing acts of terrorism in western nations have the political goal of forcing those nations out of engagement in the middle east. the IRA had the goal of forcing the English out of northern Ireland. Martin Bryant had no political outcome intended, Anders Brevik did. I am not sure if Monis did or didn't.
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Dec 16, 2015 03:04
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Has Scott Morrison committed any serious crimes against humanity or done anything to offend god in the last 24 hours? I mean it's not that I believe in god or the flying spaghetti monster or anything, the reason I ask is that his electorate just got smashed by one hell of a storm: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-16/tornado-hail-destructive-winds-hit-sydney/7032370  (Photo nicked from reddit) EDIT: Granted any electorate willing to put Scott Morrison in power with 60% of the vote deserves to be washed off the face of the earth etc. etc. Rougey fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Dec 16, 2015 |
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Dec 16, 2015 03:13
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I think I poorly phrased my post. I understand why the definition of 'terrorism' is important in a global/political sense but I don't understand why it is important to the discussion people were having in this thread. One side is saying Monis is a terrorist because 'my definition of a terrorist is X, Y, Z' while the other side is saying he wasn't because 'my definition of a terrorist is X, Y, Q'.
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Dec 16, 2015 03:15
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Rougey posted:Has Scott Morrison committed any serious crimes against humanity or done anything to offend god in the last 24 hours? It really was just his electorate that got smashed too, I'm an electorate over and will still need to water the plants tonight it rained that little. For a few more pics ABC has a slideshow
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Dec 16, 2015 03:17
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Birb Katter posted:It really was just his electorate that got smashed too, I'm an electorate over and will still need to water the plants tonight it rained that little. For a few more pics ABC has a slideshow  
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Dec 16, 2015 03:38
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Rougey posted:Has Scott Morrison committed any serious crimes against humanity or done anything to offend god in the last 24 hours? Almost certainly yes.
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Dec 16, 2015 05:35
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MonoAus posted:I think I poorly phrased my post. Terrorism is political. Being labelled a terrorist has consequences for anyone also matching whatever description we give terrorism. In Australia, that is apparently because one is brown or Muslim or "not from here". That is why it is relevant to discuss the brain-dead definitions being bandied about in the media and whether that matches our understanding.
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Dec 16, 2015 06:26
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All the memorial is about is keeping TERRISM fresh in our minds so they can keep that sweet funding pouring into Border FORCE
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Dec 16, 2015 06:30
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starkebn posted:All the memorial is about is keeping TERRISM fresh in our minds so they can keep that sweet funding pouring into Border FORCE You're delusional. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 16, 2015 06:44
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An Australian-led delegation to the West Bank featuring Minister Christopher Pyne, former speaker Bronwyn Bishop, Labor MP Tim Watts and Human Rights Commissioner Tim Wilson has been criticised by a minister in the Palestinian Authority, who said the group had "false information" and were "not well educated". Mr Wilson said the group "quizzed" the Palestinian Prime Minister and Education Minister about a range of topics. Palestinian Education Minister Dr Sabri Saidam described the meeting as "very explosive and very challenging" and said the group had asked "rude and blunt" questions. When asked about Dr Saidam's comments, Mr Pyne said he believed he was very diplomatic, but admitted that some members of the delegation were potentially "too robust". "I very diplomatically asked the Prime Minister and the Higher Education Minister questions which I thought would be useful for understanding the Palestinian attitudes to the peace process," Mr Pyne told the ABC. "Other members of the dialogue were slightly more robust and could be accused of quizzing them.
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Dec 16, 2015 06:45
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Tirade posted:You're a terrorist.
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Dec 16, 2015 06:46
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starkebn posted:All the memorial is about is keeping TERRISM fresh in our memories
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Dec 16, 2015 06:52
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if you FEED a terrist or you FUND a terrist YER A TERRIST https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXBeE3gaAug
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Dec 16, 2015 07:07
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Tirade posted:You're delusional. You're Tirade. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 16, 2015 07:11
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