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Tempest_56 posted:Are You Having Fun Yet? If the answer is ever "yes," Death Vox has failed Discendo Vox posted:I'm giving the thread the game that payday 2 players want, need, and deserve. Want, no, need, no, deserve, maybe; but the only thing you're giving to anyone that hasn't yet learned to scroll past is an eyesore ClonedPickle fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Dec 17, 2015 |
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Dec 17, 2015 00:36
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Tempest, you're describing the intended design scenario- the WTF moments, endurance, and tension of being divided between multiple locations is what high end players can find fun without getting instakilled by an FBI agent like on DW. That includes "a coordinated team can get around this restriction"- that's a part of the design goal. I'm giving the thread the game that payday 2 players want, need, and deserve.
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Dec 17, 2015 00:36
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Discendo Vox posted:Tempest, you're describing the intended design scenario- the WTF moments, endurance, and tension of being divided between multiple locations is what high end players can find fun without getting instakilled by an FBI agent like on DW. That includes "a coordinated team can get around this restriction"- that's a part of the design goal. I'm giving the thread the game that payday 2 players want, need, and deserve. So where does mass snipers, respawning tripmines, and multiple turrets fall into "tension of being divided between multiple locations"? Tension is for problems that you're not sure you can solve, not problems that pop up and force you to spend the next few minutes detouring. I'd much rather see changes to spawning and aggressiveness that mean you cannot leisurely wipe out cops as they approach and simply duck behind cover when your armor breaks. Give cops temporary damage resistance after they spawn, minimize the time they spend loitering in corners, have them use smoke grenades more liberally, etc. Things that put pressure on you and slowly drain resources rather than "this area is now off-limits unless you want to burn lots of ammo or risk instantly going down!". Most of your changes seem to continue encouraging players to lean on safe camping corners, just with the twist of the map expecting you to split up.
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Dec 17, 2015 01:11
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Discendo Vox posted:Tempest, you're describing the intended design scenario- the WTF moments, endurance, and tension of being divided between multiple locations is what high end players can find fun without getting instakilled by an FBI agent like on DW. That includes "a coordinated team can get around this restriction"- that's a part of the design goal. I'm giving the thread the game that payday 2 players want, need, and deserve. cloakers exist. tasers exist. The game is DESIGNED to PUNISH players who split apart from the group and your stupid fanfiction forces people to do this
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Dec 17, 2015 01:57
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I have an idea I call it Billmaster Coz'bs super fun assault wave All cops make a cloaker's whirring sound, cloakers sound like bulldozers, bulldozers announce themselves as tazers, tazers make the clanging shield noise, and shields will now carry gun-skin modified weapons that fire faster than usual. Also if someone goes down, the sound track changes to Donacdum
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Dec 17, 2015 01:58
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BillmasterCozb posted:I have an idea Where do I sign up for this?
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Dec 17, 2015 02:04
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Why would you ever switch from Donacdum?
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Dec 17, 2015 02:06
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to play evil eye obviously
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Dec 17, 2015 02:07
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Afraid of Audio posted:to play evil eye obviously why would you ever switch from evi---oh right, to play hot pursuit.
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Dec 17, 2015 02:10
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isndl posted:So where does mass snipers, respawning tripmines, and multiple turrets fall into "tension of being divided between multiple locations"? Tension is for problems that you're not sure you can solve, not problems that pop up and force you to spend the next few minutes detouring. These are some well-placed criticisms. I'd begin by saying that the respawning tripmines and turrets aren't for the purpose of creating division so much as rendering trivial parts of the map less safe. Right now, running a bag to the back chimney isn't an issue because the space is rarely a problem- having traps/turrets along the route changes that, but they're not meant to be tension-inducing beyond the first couple times they're encountered. The main way I try to incentivize splitting the group on this heist is that tasks that are simultaneously available to speed completion up-securing bags, shouting at elves collecting items, and dealing with the curveball enemy spawn the map just threw at you are all available and all need to be done, individually or as a group. These decisions, which carry risk and benefit, are the particular form of tension I'm going for with DV. I intend for some of them to be circumvented by clever mechanical exploits (like the snowblower example), and for others to be genuine, situation-dependent tradeoffs. I didn't spend too much time worrying about camping positions on SW because there aren't many good ones- and the distribution of elves makes camping less viable as a strategy. On other maps, particular camping locations would be closed off, or made less available due to new enemy spawns. I don't discuss the general Death Vox elements in the heist-specific posts, but I do actually plan to do some of the things you describe to try to spice of general gameplay. DV has a new basic enemy unit that is the equivalent of the Gensec elites. These enemies are roughly equivalent in firepower to Murkies, but path faster, use flashbangs and smokebombs simultaneously (and more often), and can't be intimidated. Mobile special units, particularly tasers and dozers, are more of a threat and require a more coordinated response (I can't find a good way to make shields more threatening, and the introduction of several health regen mechanics since I started DV make cloakers much less of a problem than they once were). One way to think of DV loud is to divide its changes into several categories. 1. General combat changes designed to make the core combat less trivial at overkill difficulty levels. This doesn't show up in these heist-specific posts because they're mostly in the general DV changes post(which I should update and post here). 2. Map-specific changes that remove easy or obvious ways of handling the map. The classic example of this on Death Wish is the closure of the warehouse on Watchdogs Day 2. These help, but on their own players will eventually find a new way to handle the map. 3. Increases of scale and reward that attempt to make the map seem more impressive in scale. These increase the reward and (sometimes, especially with "infinite" maps) length/difficulty of the map to make completing it more of an accomplishment. On their own they're not very meaningful, but are intended to make completion more rewarding and provide more space for other changes to apply. 4. Added or different tasks. These are meant to both change the flow of heist completion, create decisions about splitting the group, and just provide surprises in narrative. These "curveballs" are intended to increase difficulty, but they're also partially there for the psychological effect of surprise in a playerbase that isn't just reading them in a giant  list on SA. If you're not expecting it, getting into the basement of Big Oil day 2 and seeing a bunch of engine parts and a series of equations on the walls, then hearing Bain say "I guess we'll have to build the cold fusion engine ourselves" is meant to be a very memorable moment.Grapplejack posted:cloakers exist. tasers exist. The game is DESIGNED to PUNISH players who split apart from the group and your stupid fanfiction forces people to do this It doesn't force it, it incentivizes team-splitting- in an increased form of the way that it's incentivized in the game as it stands. It's a way of getting players to reevaluate the decisions associated with their gameplay, and make it have greater consequences.
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Dec 17, 2015 02:11
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ode to greed is nice too sometimes
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Dec 17, 2015 02:14
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I really like all of those as well as Utter Chaos, but The Take is still king.
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Dec 17, 2015 02:21
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Gun Metal Grey is the best song. Period. 
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Dec 17, 2015 02:38
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Doctor Shitfaced posted:Gun Metal Grey is the best song. Period. dont act dumb
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Dec 17, 2015 02:43
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Doctor Shitfaced posted:Gun Metal Grey is the best song. Period. That's an odd way of spelling Evil Eye
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Dec 17, 2015 02:44
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Hot Pursuit is fantastic, doubly so if you have the rear end & Titties mashup mod.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:13
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100 Bags of anything in this game is unfun. Everything else about your fan fiction is becoming a BS Shitcake. While it would be nice to see expanding objectives ala Goldeneye 64, loving with the player isn't something to aspire to. If I want to get hosed over randomly I would go play a Rogue-like. You're making Lion Game Lion look like geniuses in level design Vox.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:31
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oohhboy posted:100 Bags of anything in this game is unfun. Everything else about your fan fiction is becoming a BS Shitcake. While it would be nice to see expanding objectives ala Goldeneye 64, loving with the player isn't something to aspire to. If I want to get hosed over randomly I would go play a Rogue-like. You, uh, don't get hosed over randomly. One of the explicit things about DV (actually one of the things that it's criticized for) is that there's a lot less risk of randomly being screwed compared with DW.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:32
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I'm surprized nobody's mixed more voice lines into Donacdum. I'm sure "ARMS OUTSTRETCHED" could fit in there somewhere
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Dec 17, 2015 03:49
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Laputanmachine posted:I'd say the hardest part towards the end is getting out of the vault area to the escape sequence through the hellscape that is the front of the bank. Dumping the gold into the vents is easy, if time-consuming. Easy enough so long as the team moves together, which is admittedly a problem when playing with pubs. Sometimes not even necessary, if the vault spawns on the same side of the bank as the escape!
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Dec 17, 2015 03:58
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Smoke and flash bangs at the same time is loving players over and the game has more than enough of both as it is. On DW smoke gets used almost continuously especially if you have to stay in place. I would have been more than happy if DW was just increased spawns and the skulldozer. As far as increased spawns go, Overkill has that covered on the newer maps. Turrets are aggravating enough as they are, forget about killing them with normal bullets, which leaves the flamer or lots of HE rounds. Winters is also annoying enough as it is, don't go removing the few weaknesses he has other than not moving. Stop removing options, it's unfun. There should never be a "Perfect" enemy where you have firepower, speed, protection all in one package. Tans are bullet proof chest plate, but have lower firepower, greens are softer, but can pack shotguns that can gently caress you up quick. The lighter soft units move faster or are more accurate like the FBI agents. Cloakers have a massive headshot bonus. Dozers the faceplate along with HE stunning while being slow. Tasers require time to stun you and it doesn't count as a down. Shields have low firepower. The two new DLC maps are quite good to learn from. Two massive things to note from them is that they don't require any particular deployable or drill skills. Two, they both have you assaulting and defending on the same map that aren't arbitrary low cover areas like Christmas safe(It isn't a fun objective to do as it requires you to cheese it with ECM feedback). They switch tempo quite regularly at times taking a player out of the loop with objectives like the blow torch or having immediate risk/reward calculus like how many people to assign to hook up the pallets of money. Then there is the subtle change to the Sky mission where they now highlight the broken pallet money bundles because it was found to be overly frustrating and unfun.
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Dec 17, 2015 04:11
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Protip: get good
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Dec 17, 2015 04:27
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BillmasterCozb posted:I'm surprized nobody's mixed more voice lines into Donacdum. I'm sure "ARMS OUTSTRETCHED" could fit in there somewhere It wouldn't be the same if it wasn't being said every two seconds for a minute and a half.
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Dec 17, 2015 04:30
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oohhboy posted:Smoke and flash bangs at the same time is loving players over and the game has more than enough of both as it is. On DW smoke gets used almost continuously especially if you have to stay in place. I would have been more than happy if DW was just increased spawns and the skulldozer. As far as increased spawns go, Overkill has that covered on the newer maps. Turrets are aggravating enough as they are, forget about killing them with normal bullets, which leaves the flamer or lots of HE rounds. Winters is also annoying enough as it is, don't go removing the few weaknesses he has other than not moving. Stop removing options, it's unfun. Only one change will make DW more fun: revival gives back 50% health like it does on Overkill. I always thought giving back only 10% was arbitrary and unfair (on PD:TH with Overkill 145+, too); the one specific thing put into the difficulty level with the sole purpose of loving players over. Even with that, though Deathwish is easy enough these days with proper teamwork. It was much, much worse when first introduced because players had far fewer options to handle the new difficulty (eg no dodge builds existed at that time). That aside, yes you need to get good because turrets are almost no trouble on any map so long as one knows how to take cover. Winters is also laughably easy with a mobile (dodge/grinder) build and an explosive Judge. I've attacked him alone on Deathwish while others were completing objectives and beaten him in a matter of minutes. The thing about DW is that it's generally not a good idea to stay in a single place for very long, because you're more than likely to be overwhelmed. Run, gun, take cover/regenerate health, repeat.
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Dec 17, 2015 05:45
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Just picked this up after almost a year of not playing. I hope I get to shoot cops with goons that will tolerate me not knowing any of these new maps! Jumped into a random single-player map to get a feel for things again and it was the new meth cooking one on the giant table. Boy was I surprised (I instantly hosed up and blew up the table)
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Dec 17, 2015 06:04
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Wrr posted:Just picked this up after almost a year of not playing. I hope I get to shoot cops with goons that will tolerate me not knowing any of these new maps! you appear to have acted dumb c/d
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Dec 17, 2015 06:10
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Wrr posted:Just picked this up after almost a year of not playing. I hope I get to shoot cops with goons that will tolerate me not knowing any of these new maps! This raises an interesting question - does the F In Chemistry achievement work for blowing yourself up in Lab Rats? In theory it should, since it's the same meth lab.
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Dec 17, 2015 06:20
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The "Get Good" part has already been sorted, the only thing I am missing is Rep Beyond Reproach(loving last meter), my concern is the fun factor. Minutes to kill Winters is too much time spent. RPG top down attack is where it's at or lacking an RPG, launched nades to the head for the same effect. There will be times on DW where you do get pinned down. My team did when doing beneath the mountain just pass the airlock. Couldn't move forward from the lack of cover, couldn't shoot from the overwhelming amount of smoke, so you sit there and wait for an opening. We finished it first try, but I can't say it was pleasant to play. Sometimes you just have to hold a location as moving around isn't an option or the level is too small or too open. DW was serious BS when it first came out, ICTV might as well been wet newspaper. It might be better now, but the gently caress you factor remains. I almost always kill turrets as it means one less thing to gently caress you over regardless of difficulty and it gives you back your options.
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Dec 17, 2015 06:34
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Wintermutant posted:That's an odd way of spelling Evil Eye That's an odd way of spelling Dote Up a Cat.
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Dec 17, 2015 07:09
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averox posted:That's an odd way of spelling Dote Up a Cat. That is the best song in the game by far. Viklund really needs to step up.
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Dec 17, 2015 13:00
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BillmasterCozb posted:I'm surprized nobody's mixed more voice lines into Donacdum. I'm sure "ARMS OUTSTRETCHED" could fit in there somewhere It really needs more stuff before the beat comes back in. In those little pauses. More "EVERYBODY! GET YOUR HANDS UP!" type lines.
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Dec 17, 2015 16:22
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averox posted:That's an odd way of spelling Dote Up a Cat. That's an odd way of spelling Burning Sunset
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Dec 17, 2015 17:07
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BillmasterCozb posted:That's an odd way of spelling Burning Sunset
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Dec 17, 2015 17:14
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BillmasterCozb posted:That's an odd way of spelling Burning Sunset  <- you---------- <- the line
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Dec 17, 2015 17:36
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BillmasterCozb posted:That's an odd way of spelling Burning Sunset brutal
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Dec 17, 2015 18:16
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I love this new achievement already even though I haven't done it yet.
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Dec 17, 2015 20:47
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Can somebody give me any reason why the gun skins are perceived as a bad thing, other than "THEY LIEEEEEED" I feel like the whole "stat boost" thing is obsolete because this is a goddamn PvE game who gives a poo poo if the skins give you +3 damage to your loving rifle that already does 80~ damage this is payday 2: where the points dont matter
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Dec 17, 2015 20:52
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BillmasterCozb posted:Can somebody give me any reason why the gun skins are perceived as a bad thing, other than "THEY LIEEEEEED" OVERKILL, JUST STOP WITH THESE UPDATES, THE MODDING COMMUNTY ON LASTBULLET DO THE MODS, YOU ARE JUST TAKING SKINS AND SLAPPING ON SOME STAT BOOSTS, I UNDERSTAND ITS A FREE SAFE AND DRILL FOR DOING A ACHIEVEMENT, BUT FOR 1 SKIN?, THAT IS WAY TOO MUCH, I MEAN C'MON FRAMING FRAME ON OVERKILL WITH NO SKILLS, YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE INSANE TO DO THAT AND NOT FAIL, PLUS ONLY BRING THE PLATYPUS AND THE JUDGE, ALSO I HAVE LOADS OF MODS FOR PAYDAY 2, LIKE SKINS AND STUFF, AND I NEED TO REINSTALL THEM ALL AFTER THIS, THANKS OVERKILL....
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Dec 17, 2015 20:57
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Man, these monthly jobs are kinda low effort.
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Dec 17, 2015 20:58
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Discendo Vox posted:Man, these monthly jobs are kinda low effort. i just think it's clever that they found a way to give out prizes i can't just SAM myself.
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Dec 17, 2015 21:03
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