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Pope Guilty posted:The Sabbat without the Tzimesce is a very different Sabbat. A Requiem without the Circle would be more dramatically different than a Masquerade without the Tzimisce, is the point here, but little actually stops you from doing either. Requiem will fight you less if you try to cut the Circle out, but that's not the same thing as the Tzimisce having a richer history than the Circle. Both settings, at this point, have specific histories telling the reader of the interaction of their various factions in the setting's past, and even supplements that let you play in past eras.
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Dec 16, 2015 22:10
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Also Requiem has stuff like Danse Macabre, which is pretty much "well if you don't want the Circle/Carthians/Ordo in your game, here are some alternatives if you want to fill the gap" The Book. As far as I know, oWoD has no equivalent "if you think the Tzimisce are loving skeev, here are some alternative clans you could put in Carpathia/the Sabbat" because you're very much supposed to be playing in The Setting, with no expectation that you're going to alter it more than any GM has to interpret any setting to run their campaign.
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Dec 17, 2015 01:03
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Doodmons posted:Also Requiem has stuff like Danse Macabre, which is pretty much "well if you don't want the Circle/Carthians/Ordo in your game, here are some alternatives if you want to fill the gap" The Book. As far as I know, oWoD has no equivalent "if you think the Tzimisce are loving skeev, here are some alternative clans you could put in Carpathia/the Sabbat" because you're very much supposed to be playing in The Setting, with no expectation that you're going to alter it more than any GM has to interpret any setting to run their campaign. The closest that VtM ever got to that stuff was the Storytellers Handbook, that had variant setting ideas, such as no clans, or no Sabbat and Camarilla. But in those chapters it did point out that doing so are radical changes to the setting. Comparatively, it is expected that your VtR games will have any/and/all different Covenants in different cities. And that one person's Covenant politics for say London, will be different to how another person runs it. And that is much easier to do because CWoD is a house of cards, while NWoD was some main islands (core books and core setting material), and then you bridge to the other ones as you see fit (optional stuff and books) and even is set up for islands to be cut up and parts discarded.
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Dec 17, 2015 01:27
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There's a difference between some Covenants having no sway in particular cities, as well as having regional differences for each Covenant, than removing them from the setting entirely.
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Dec 17, 2015 01:50
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MonsieurChoc posted:There's a difference between some Covenants having no sway in particular cities, as well as having regional differences for each Covenant, than removing them from the setting entirely. But books don't rely on other books existing is the point. Like yes, Rites of the Dragon expects that the Circle of the Crone, as an idea, exists. But the content of one optional suppliment doesn't rely, comic book style, on the continuity of the last one. There is defiantly a shared history implied or stated through several books. But Masquerade has NPCS that cross multiple books that are deeply embedded in both the setting and history. Events permanently shape the background. We tried really hard to separate history and metaplot for a couple of years there. In Masquerades case they are almost too closely tied to seperate.
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Dec 17, 2015 02:05
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Doodmons posted:Also Requiem has stuff like Danse Macabre, which is pretty much "well if you don't want the Circle/Carthians/Ordo in your game, here are some alternatives if you want to fill the gap" The Book. As far as I know, oWoD has no equivalent "if you think the Tzimisce are loving skeev, here are some alternative clans you could put in Carpathia/the Sabbat" because you're very much supposed to be playing in The Setting, with no expectation that you're going to alter it more than any GM has to interpret any setting to run their campaign. You could do that for VtM, though. People just haven't, because around the time that dissatisfaction with the established history and metaplot had gotten strong enough for the idea to be seriously considered it seemed smarter to just start fresh entirely.
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Dec 17, 2015 02:19
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Mendrian posted:But books don't rely on other books existing is the point. Like yes, Rites of the Dragon expects that the Circle of the Crone, as an idea, exists. But the content of one optional suppliment doesn't rely, comic book style, on the continuity of the last one. There is defiantly a shared history implied or stated through several books. But Masquerade has NPCS that cross multiple books that are deeply embedded in both the setting and history. Events permanently shape the background. We tried really hard to separate history and metaplot for a couple of years there. In Masquerades case they are almost too closely tied to seperate. Oh yeah, I wasn't quite disagreeing so much as adding nuance there.
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Dec 17, 2015 02:47
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Ferrinus posted:You could do that for VtM, though. You totally could, I agree. Hell the GM in the oWoD game I'm in at the moment has rewritten the setting a fair amount to update it to 2015. The difference is that, as far as I know, Masquerade doesn't have any dedicated "hack this setting apart and make it your own" books like Danse Macabre.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:10
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Doodmons posted:Also Requiem has stuff like Danse Macabre, which is pretty much "well if you don't want the Circle/Carthians/Ordo in your game, here are some alternatives if you want to fill the gap" The Book. As far as I know, oWoD has no equivalent "if you think the Tzimisce are loving skeev, here are some alternative clans you could put in Carpathia/the Sabbat" because you're very much supposed to be playing in The Setting, with no expectation that you're going to alter it more than any GM has to interpret any setting to run their campaign. I've always liked how nWoD has encouraged weird variants on the setting like that. Danse Macabre ruled, but I like how even the other books always hint at multiple ways to handle something or how things could be omitted or changed. What things have people tried in their games? I once ran a game where the Julii survived into the modern age-- but the Ventrue were around too, so you had two clans of power hungry rear end in a top hat vampires fighting over the same lordly niche. That, along with making the city the game took place in utterly dominated by the secular/political Invictus and Carthian covenants, put an emphasis on the cutthroat political aspects of the setting.
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Dec 17, 2015 17:50
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Empress Theonora posted:I've always liked how nWoD has encouraged weird variants on the setting like that. Danse Macabre ruled, but I like how even the other books always hint at multiple ways to handle something or how things could be omitted or changed. My own Requiem setting for Manchester UK consists of the following. Around the Peterloo Massacre, the Carthians formed and in one night slew the ruling Lancea Sanctum. The child of the Cardinal took the role of Chairman, and established a Board of Representatives. One seat per clan, one per covenant. During the 80s the Ordo Dracul tried to take power, failed, and were banned from the board (making it just 9 seats). The Chairman, fyi, holds emergency powers, and thus controls the Lictor, Constable and his Bailiffs. The Invictus themselves are granted domain to the north and south of the city centre. As a result there are two rival dynastic houses. One is rules by the Ventrue board member, the other by the Judex of the Invictus, who is also the other elder Ventrue. The Nosfertu have an unofficial title as one of their elders is the Mayor of the Undercity. The Crone are divided into two main cults, the Cult of Cernnunos with an elder apparently from Roman period, and a cult of Hathor. Both cults accept dual membership from the Invictus and Carthians. The Crone has a smaller cult devoted to more Persion/Middle Eastern vampires, and the head of their group is the Constable. The Lancea Sanctum is also made up of rival sects, with the more moderate Westminster creed, and the more firebrand Vatican creed. Known only to a few, the Cult of Mithras operates within the Invictus. Edit - oh yeah. One part of the Carthians wants the board dissolved and replaced with a Parliament with proportional representation. A new Nosferatu bloodline - much like the Tzimesce has been created due to a vampire feeding on tainted blood that had been modified by stolen alchemy - apparently under the guise as research into leukaemia. dr_ether fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Dec 17, 2015 |
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Dec 17, 2015 18:13
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Empress Theonora posted:I've always liked how nWoD has encouraged weird variants on the setting like that. Danse Macabre ruled, but I like how even the other books always hint at multiple ways to handle something or how things could be omitted or changed. None of the games I've been in have involved VII and I think only one of them even hinted at Belial's Brood. My favorite so far is the heretical faction of the Lancae Sanctum (founded by one of the players' PCs from another game) based on the notion that Jesus loves everyone, even vampires, and repudiates the incredibly stupid theology of the Spears.
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Dec 18, 2015 02:52
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I'm tempted to ask what their explanation is for why God created vampires, but then I remember that under this schema, God must also have created liopleurodons and am then convinced that God is simply awesomely metal.
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Dec 18, 2015 03:20
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Empress Theonora posted:I've always liked how nWoD has encouraged weird variants on the setting like that. Danse Macabre ruled, but I like how even the other books always hint at multiple ways to handle something or how things could be omitted or changed. In my vampire game, Dracula fell into revenancy while inventing the Coils and the process of refining them, as well as the process of actually establishing the Ordo Dracul, fell to Anoushka, Mara, and Lisette, who basically Weekend at Bernie's-ed his name and reputation around Europe.
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Dec 18, 2015 04:39
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I've never run a game of Vampire, and can't offer any examples of local variances in sect or political organization. Sorry.
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Dec 18, 2015 04:53
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Attorney at Funk posted:In my vampire game, Dracula fell into revenancy while inventing the Coils and the process of refining them, as well as the process of actually establishing the Ordo Dracul, fell to Anoushka, Mara, and Lisette, who basically Weekend at Bernie's-ed his name and reputation around Europe. Weekend at Dracula's sounds like a fantastic endgame tbh
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Dec 18, 2015 05:17
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Attorney at Funk posted:In my vampire game, Dracula fell into revenancy while inventing the Coils and the process of refining them, as well as the process of actually establishing the Ordo Dracul, fell to Anoushka, Mara, and Lisette, who basically Weekend at Bernie's-ed his name and reputation around Europe. This rules imho
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Dec 18, 2015 05:18
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Axelgear posted:I'm tempted to ask what their explanation is for why God created vampires, but then I remember that under this schema, God must also have created liopleurodons and am then convinced that God is simply awesomely metal. Old Testament God can be a dick sometimes. I always figured the vampires were punishment for everyone else, rather than punishment on the vampires themselves. "Oh, you guys like murder, do you? Alright, fine, I'm going to inflict superhuman assholes who thrive on murder on you for it."
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Dec 18, 2015 06:47
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Night10194 posted:Old Testament God can be a dick sometimes. "But what about the superhuman murderers?" "That's easy, they just go to hell."
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Dec 18, 2015 06:54
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Pope Guilty posted:"But what about the superhuman murderers?" "They have to deal with the OTHER superhuman murderers." And through that, we get the hole in the bucket that is the oWoD being absolutely chock full of various flavors of superhuman murderer.
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Dec 18, 2015 06:56
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So, in other words, the Lancea is correct and vampires exist to scourge the sinful as holy monsters.
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Dec 18, 2015 07:24
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Empress Theonora posted:I've always liked how nWoD has encouraged weird variants on the setting like that. Danse Macabre ruled, but I like how even the other books always hint at multiple ways to handle something or how things could be omitted or changed. I came up with a Japanese branch of the Ordo Dracul (the Meiji Rite), with an overly complex backstory and possible secrets, but never got to use them in a game.
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Dec 18, 2015 08:46
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MonsieurChoc posted:I came up with a Japanese branch of the Ordo Dracul (the Meiji Rite), with an overly complex backstory and possible secrets, but never got to use them in a game. They sound wicked. So do they have a East Asian folk medicine spin to their alchemy? How about their approach to Coils, is that altered to fit a particular local religion or something else?
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Dec 18, 2015 11:58
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Night10194 posted:Old Testament God can be a dick sometimes. But that's literally the Lance's basic philosophy. God made vampires because idiot humans keep forgetting to be afraid of poo poo and need a reason to believe in the supernatural. This flies directly in the face of the Masquerade but that's something the Sanctum has been trying to rectify since the Middle Ages.
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Dec 18, 2015 11:59
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Whether or not it was the original intention, I always felt Sanctified theology being in conflict with modern, temporal concerns was always a compelling theme, much like how the Catholic Church became such a temporal institution in contrast to the original writings.
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Dec 18, 2015 14:26
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Genuinely though, hardline Sanctified are basically the people the Invictus hate the most - even the Circle of the Crone know to clean up after themselves. When your entire Requiem is based around inflicting the fear of god on mortals, the Conspiracy of Silence want you loving dead. Particularly since the back of the Testiment of Longinus contains a list of all the things that Sanctified are supposed to hate and kill on sight and it includes "all revenants" and nice things like that. Sanctified who refuse to tone it down are basically the worst thing for a domain since an Ordo Dracul academy that thinks Chasing the Dragon's Scales sounds like a great way to spend an evening.
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Dec 18, 2015 15:46
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dr_ether posted:They sound wicked. So do they have a East Asian folk medicine spin to their alchemy? How about their approach to Coils, is that altered to fit a particular local religion or something else? Ok, here goes. So, the basic idea is that during the period Japan wa sopen to the world in the 16th Century a couple Ordo Dracul scholars showed up. This created a first japanese version of the Covenant that lasted until the Meiji Restoration, a very japanese one. Mostly based around concepts of imported chinese alchemy and zen buddhism. There are many temples held by monks in Japan, sometimes with hereditary families running them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_temples_in_Japan). A perfect cover for the Order guarding Wyrm's Nests, with the Monks being a Ghoul Family. So for a few centuries the Order was seen as a strange small sect in Japanese kindred politics, staying mostly isolated and "neutral". Then comes the Meiji Restoration and Japan's desire to modernize. The Japanese version of the sect reconnected with the Western version and reorganized itself into something closer to the 'normal' Ordo Dracul: the Meiji Rite. So in the modern nights it's a mix between 19th-Century japanese businessman and zen buddhist practices: the elders are mostly from the Meiji era while the really really old vampires from the previous version are rare and mostly stay in their temples. The big "possible secret" was that Dracula could possibly be in torpor in japan. Lisette left for "parts East" saying he was calling her after all. Depending on the chronicle this could either be just a local legend or true: the original western Ordo Dracul member who first came in the 16th Century would be none other than Dracula himself, and in Japan he sired a Fourth Bride. He would then be in Torpor in one of the Temples held by the Ordo, guarded by a ghoul family of Monks for generations.
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Dec 18, 2015 17:11
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I admit, the Lancea always felt off to me in their attempt to use the New Testament's stories to justify a distinctly Old Testament view. I'm pretty sure there are actual debates you can have over theology here and that they all laugh at the writings of Paul of Tarsus, but I think that's also why there's so much mention of other sacred texts. I'm pretty sure that the Lancea's theology is probably more like an entirely new Abrahamic faith than anything resembling Christianity, yet alone Catholicism, which makes me wonder why it clings so tightly to the Catholic face of things. It just confuses any new players with even a passing understanding of Catholicism. If nothing else, I wish the Vampire (and to a lesser extent, Hunter) lines might at least show a little acknowledgement of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Not only are their hats and robes just as delightful, they believe that a corpse refusing to rot is a sign of the deceased being evil, instead of it being a sign of sainthood as it is with the Roman Church. They also cover countries with far more traditional vampire myths. E: Also, that Meiji Ordo thing sounds pretty darn cool. Nice stuff.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:04
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Oh, you're absolutely correct, they aren't Catholic in the slightest. They're something rather Gnostic in a few ways - mostly the fact that their deity is very, very maltheistic. They use the Catholic front to ease people into it - it's a lot easier to get a new vampire to accept Vampire Bishops than it is to jump them straight into 'and so God wants us to make others suffer as punishment for sin.'
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Dec 18, 2015 19:28
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Also, it's not like anyone in the Catholic Church actually believes any of it.
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Dec 18, 2015 23:08
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Attorney at Funk posted:Also, it's not like anyone in the Catholic Church actually believes any of it. The pope is actually Caine in between his taxi driver stints.
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Dec 18, 2015 23:28
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So while we're in oWod/nWod talk: I think I'm one of the few people to actually like Hunter: the Reckoning. I've run it several times and I have to highlight that, while oWod is normally more comic book action-oriented, the games I've run have been pretty introspective and as dramatic as I could make them. I think the overall tone I want to achieve is similar to nWod bluebook, people suddenly discovering something they can't ignore and deciding whether and how to fight it or cure it. I kinda like the Heralds metaplot but the God Machine sounds just as good (and over the top) to me, so even if there's lots of stupid things in the line, I've ignored them for the most part. The thing is that I want to start a game with some new people, and while I'm very familiar with H:tR already (and hence biased to go with it), I'm curious about what the bluebook and Vigil have to offer. If I'm going to run a game about everyday people that have to gather the guts and scarce resources they have to hide and try to make a change (even knowing that for the most part they won't change anything even if they kill that monster or save that person), what's the tonal and thematic difference of bluebook, Reckoning and Vigil? (I'd also like to integrate the GM in the chronicle maybe).
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Dec 21, 2015 23:59
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Cable posted:So while we're in oWod/nWod talk: The major difference between Vigil and Reckoning is that Vigil presents a toolbox approach to making a monster hunter game while Reckoning says "You are a capital-H Hunter which means X, Y, and Z.". Also Reckoning, from what I recall, tends to play up the notion that Hunters' struggles are largely acts of futile defiance while in Vigil the idea is more "there's a reason monsters stick to the shadows, because otherwise humans would gently caress their poo poo right up." If you're Joe Vampire and you decide to go on a thrill kill spree in Union territory because you think you're so far above the mortal sheep that you can do whatever you want, you're in for a rude awakening when a bunch of fixers stake you out in front of the sunrise as a warning to the others to stay out of their neighborhood.
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Dec 22, 2015 00:19
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Cable posted:The thing is that I want to start a game with some new people, and while I'm very familiar with H:tR already (and hence biased to go with it), I'm curious about what the bluebook and Vigil have to offer. If I'm going to run a game about everyday people that have to gather the guts and scarce resources they have to hide and try to make a change (even knowing that for the most part they won't change anything even if they kill that monster or save that person), what's the tonal and thematic difference of bluebook, Reckoning and Vigil? (I'd also like to integrate the GM in the chronicle maybe). HtR:
HtV:
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Dec 22, 2015 00:24
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Vigil implies a world in which humanity, while threatened by monsters, is not entirely out of awareness. They know what's going on, in a sort of peripheral, back-of-the-mind way. People take up the Vigil, if rarely, and while it fucks their lives up, it's a thing people do. There's no supernatural force behind it empowering them, not without a Conspiracy helping out, though.
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Dec 22, 2015 00:25
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Kai Tave posted:The major difference between Vigil and Reckoning is that Vigil presents a toolbox approach to making a monster hunter game while Reckoning says "You are a capital-H Hunter which means X, Y, and Z.". Also Reckoning, from what I recall, tends to play up the notion that Hunters' struggles are largely acts of futile defiance while in Vigil the idea is more "there's a reason monsters stick to the shadows, because otherwise humans would gently caress their poo poo right up." If you're Joe Vampire and you decide to go on a thrill kill spree in Union territory because you think you're so far above the mortal sheep that you can do whatever you want, you're in for a rude awakening when a bunch of fixers stake you out in front of the sunrise as a warning to the others to stay out of their neighborhood. In other, unrelated silliness: Protean is the best discipline if you want to do diablerie because you can turn into a bear, and bears have 6 str. This is a mental image I love.
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Dec 22, 2015 00:28
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Yawgmoth posted:It should be noted that one vampire vs. one hunter is a recipe for disaster for the hunter pretty much all the time, regardless of xp. Fortunately, there's a reason you never hear about hunters in the singular. Oh sure, monsters are still dangerous and deadly, it's just that Vigil takes the stance that when people in the nWoD get organized that even normal mundane folks with no supernatural powers can be enough of a threat to encourage the vampires and werewolves of the world to keep a low profile, whereas in the oWoD it was largely "lol Hunters."
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Dec 22, 2015 00:51
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:
In my Reckoning games, players can't choose their edges and I decide their creed based solely on their way of reacting. The only power they can control is the "Monster vision" or whatever they call it. I like to emphasize that they aren't really different from some low-tier supernaturals. I like them thinking they're crazy and not being able to tell anyone that's not a hunter, and I like them being outnumbered. I might insert some normal humans that just notice weird stuff, and I might give the HRG a read to use some of the stuff. I like oWoD metaplot but I use it extremely loosely in my games. Okay, it seems i'll still go with Reckoning! I might swap the Heralds for the God Machine though.
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Dec 22, 2015 00:56
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It might be worth checking out the condition system in the God Machine to see if you can adapt it to fit your game.
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Dec 22, 2015 02:10
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Randomly found this podcast just now http://networkzero.podbean.com/ I'm only aware of Darker Days for WoD podcasts, so I'm giving this a listen!
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Dec 22, 2015 02:43
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IIRC one of the people involved in that posted about starting it a few pages back.
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Dec 22, 2015 02:44
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