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CharlestheHammer posted:You should treat all accusations as true, there isn't anything inherently harmful in that no. The police shouldn't but that is why investigations happen or at least should. Luckily it really doesn't happen at a rate that deserves any real effort into changing it as it would cause far more harm than good. Treating all false accusations as true in the court of public opinion can be extremely damaging, especially something along the lines of rape or murder. If you or a loved one were obviously faleslely accused of either, would you deny that it could have devastating effects on your lives? Would you consider this a fair trade for the people who unjustly escape prosecution for either? Is it ok that people like fishmech basically spit on you and your experience and say that not only is what you went through not that bad, but you also deserved it? That doesn't seem like a good way to view things when it comes to any crime, regardless of how low the percentage of it happening is.
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Dec 19, 2015 07:59
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fishmech posted:I didn't know the public at large was the legal system all of a sudden. When did we abolish the courts, Thursday? Hey everybody, I didn't want to say anything, but yesterday fishmech came to my apartment and brutally raped me. And hey the court of public opinion doesn't follow the same rules so we need to all treat fishmech like a rapist now. Don't doubt me, rape is very serious and we must assume all accusations are true. Shun fishmech. Fishmech is a rapist. Don't you dare argue, fishmech. We all know you're a rapist. And hey you yourself believe all rape accusations are true based on what I'm reading so mine must be just as valid. See? Just because somebody said it doesn't automatically mean it is true. Is rape serious? drat right it is. Should we treat every accusation like it might be true? Yes. We should. What we should not do is just assume they're all true. But what makes rape so special? Why not believe every accusation of assault? Theft? Fraud?
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Dec 19, 2015 08:04
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Aesop Poprock posted:Treating all false accusations as true in the court of public opinion can be extremely damaging, especially something along the lines of rape or murder. If you or a loved one were obviously faleslely accused of either, would you deny that it could have devastating effects on your lives? Would you consider this a fair trade for the people who unjustly escape prosecution for either? Is it ok that people like fishmech basically spit on you and your experience and say that not only is what you went through not that bad, but you also deserved it? That doesn't seem like a good way to view things when it comes to any crime, regardless of how low the percentage of it happening is. I really don't care that you have a false belief in an epidemic of false rape accusations ruining people's lives constantly. That's not an actual problem beyond a few outliers, while actual rape goes unpunished multiple times a day, because people like you help to silence victims. You think you're just shutting up those drat liars, but you aren't. They'll never be shut up, the actual victims will. ToxicSlurpee posted:Hey everybody, I didn't want to say anything, but yesterday fishmech came to my apartment and brutally raped me. And hey the court of public opinion doesn't follow the same rules so we need to all treat fishmech like a rapist now. Flip out more, MRA.
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Dec 19, 2015 08:05
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fishmech posted:Flip out more, MRA. So what you're saying is that we must treat 100% of all rape accusations as automatically true?
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Dec 19, 2015 08:08
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ToxicSlurpee posted:So what you're saying is that we must treat 100% of all rape accusations as automatically true? If we did that, there'd be assloads more rapists actually getting punished versus today where most of them get ignored, and the conviction rate for rapes committed is well below 50%. If a few extra crazy people make false accusations because of it then big loving deal. Again: last I checked the court system is still a thing and you don't go to jail just because people don't like you. I mean it's kinda funny how people don't get offended by taking all robbery reports seriously, but if you say "take rape victims seriously" a whole buncha BUT WHAT ABOUT FALZE RAPE?? appears. gently caress off MRA.
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Dec 19, 2015 08:13
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fishmech posted:Everyone has the right to shun people they think have done distasteful things, you can't force people to like other people like Technically Not A Rapist Bill. Slam on President Clinton out of nowhere
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Dec 19, 2015 08:15
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fishmech posted:I really don't care that you have a false belief in an epidemic of false rape accusations ruining people's lives constantly. That's not an actual problem beyond a few outliers, while actual rape goes unpunished multiple times a day, because people like you help to silence victims. You think you're just shutting up those drat liars, but you aren't. They'll never be shut up, the actual victims will. All you do in these conversations is desperately stretch and create strawmen arguments. You don't actually add to any discussion. I never claimed it was an "epidemic", just that it happens and you're a disgusting waste because you have a. Questioned that it even ever occurs, b. Claimed that being accused of a brutal crime like rape is a walk in the park cause no one cares about rape or takes it seriously, and finally c. Claimed that it's good that people who are accused of rape are thought of as guilty. I can't believe there are people here agreeing with you because all of those things are crazy, but put together you're just a loving unpleasant lunatic. You're a living and breathing strawman the RWM think exist but usually don't. Seek help.
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Dec 19, 2015 08:17
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fishmech posted:If we did that, there'd be assloads more rapists actually getting punished versus today where most of them get ignored, and the conviction rate for rapes committed is well below 50%. If a few extra crazy people make false accusations because of it then big loving deal. Again: last I checked the court system is still a thing and you don't go to jail just because people don't like you. If we assume all accusations are true I guarantee that you'd start seeing it used as a tool against people. Oh hey, your opponent in an election is doing better than you? Throw out a rape accusation, everybody hates them now. Nasty breakup and you want the other person to be treated like damaged goods? Call them a rapist, that's it they'll never get a date ever again. Taking accusations seriously does not mean assuming they are automatically true. I mean really, go read my posts. There isn't a single crime in existence that we can look at and go "the accusation is enough, let's hate this person." I'll ask again; what makes rape so different? I do not assume that all robbery accusations are true. Or assault. Or...anything, really. Hell you pick literally any crime and you'll see false accusations, false convictions, false...everything. Taking it "seriously" means not just assuming the worst in every case. I am not omniscient. All I know is that sometimes people are guilty when accused and sometimes they are not. Pick an individual case and my answer would be "hell if I know." Show me some evidence. In a case like Cosby, well, the guy confessed. He's a rapist. OK, people are perfectly justified hating him now. The reason we must assume "every accusation has the potential to be false" for literally every crime that exists is because that's how justice loving works. What part of that are you not getting? So let me get this right; you want to assume all rape accusations are true in the court of public opinion, yes? You want everybody who hears a rape accusation to assume guilt?
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Dec 19, 2015 08:21
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ToxicSlurpee posted:But what makes rape so special? Why not believe every accusation of assault? Theft? Fraud? People don't get immediately suspicious when you say you were robbed, but they sure do when you say you were raped. Are you sure? Were you drinking? Did you lead him on? The man that molested me never went to court. If you had somehow convinced teenager me to bring it to trial, nothing would have happened, because the evidence would have been essentially nothing. And yet, it still happened. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't come into this. If it does, then that means that he was innocent, what with never going to court. I want to say more here, but I'm getting really mad writing this. I've barely told anyone this and this is really hard to talk about. ToxicSlurpee posted:
We want to be listened to and not have people think we're lying whores.
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Dec 19, 2015 08:25
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You will all be glad to know that your experiment to see if you can get me to start praying that someone will soon start talking about Rush Limbaugh has been a rousing success.
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Dec 19, 2015 08:25
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Aesop Poprock posted:All you do in these conversations is desperately stretch and create strawmen arguments. You don't actually add to any discussion. I never claimed it was an "epidemic", just that it happens and you're a disgusting waste because you have a. Questioned that it even ever occurs, b. Claimed that being accused of a brutal crime like rape is a walk in the park cause no one cares about rape or takes it seriously, and finally c. Claimed that it's good that people who are accused of rape are thought of as guilty. I can't believe there are people here agreeing with you because all of those things are crazy, but put together you're just a loving unpleasant lunatic. You're a living and breathing strawman the RWM think exist but usually don't. Seek help. You're claiming that it happens often enough to matter. It doesn't. Your bullshit is on the level of repealing seat belt laws because a few people a decade die due to them. gently caress off MRA, and stop claiming you're a feminist. ToxicSlurpee posted:If we assume all accusations are true I guarantee that you'd start seeing it used as a tool against people. By this standard noone should ever accuse anyone of anything until 3 years later when the court case finishes. Oh no, it might be used "against someone"! Why, when it's proven that truly false reports are extremely rare and rapists are getting away with rape daily, are you more concerned that some dude will get over then you are with getting more rapists caught, so that they'll victimize people less in the future? Yes people should assume that someone who claims to be raped is not likely to be lying. Most of the time, by far, they aren't lying. You wouldn't act like this was so horrible for someone saying they got mugged or saying someone broke into their car, why is it suddenly a horrible thing to believe rape victims?
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Dec 19, 2015 08:34
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people who really care about false accusations are without exception, loving weirdos.
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Dec 19, 2015 08:37
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Flowers posted:People don't get immediately suspicious when you say you were robbed, but they sure do when you say you were raped. Are you sure? Were you drinking? Did you lead him on? I've been a victim of sexual assault myself and yes I know it's awful. Yes I've been accused of lying about it; trust me, I get it. Despite what some others would have you believe my automatic response is not "lol you weren't raped/you wanted it." That would be ridiculous. I've had some nasty, nasty experiences and I get how hard it is to recover from that. I continually struggle with PTSD which was made worse quite recently. I am not omniscient so claiming that I know you are lying wouldn't make a single shred of sense. The thing here is that you aren't accusing anybody. If you say "I was a victim" then I'm going to say "what happened to you was wrong." Doesn't matter what the crime is. Get therapy, see a support group, talk about it with who you can that will listen. What happened to you was wrong and I hope you get what you need to recover. What I don't want is to live in a society where an accusation is more than enough to ruin somebody forever. One can find help and support without the offender being punished. There is quite a difference between "I was a victim" and "that person victimized me, punish them." But yeah there aren't easy answers. If you start treating every accusation as true you start getting into some dangerous territory where it gets used as a weapon or you get false accusations leading to false convictions. For better or for worse we absolutely can't be having that. What do we do? Quite frankly I have no idea but "punish literally everybody that gets accused" is not the answer.
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Dec 19, 2015 08:43
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I've been a victim of sexual assault myself and yes I know it's awful. Yes I've been accused of lying about it; trust me, I get it. Despite what some others would have you believe my automatic response is not "lol you weren't raped/you wanted it." That would be ridiculous. I've had some nasty, nasty experiences and I get how hard it is to recover from that. I continually struggle with PTSD which was made worse quite recently. I am not omniscient so claiming that I know you are lying wouldn't make a single shred of sense. Where are you getting the insane idea that the accusations do consistently ruin people's lives forever though? The true ones where the bastards get convicted certainly ruin people's lives, because they're felons guilty of a truly heinous crime, but that's as things should be. Noone should trust someone who's a rapist. But there's been zero evidence that believing people's stories of being raped necessarily leads to everyone so accused losing their jobs etc. It's a stupid scare tactic especially since the false report rate is so very low. It's not a real issue.
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Dec 19, 2015 08:48
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fishmech posted:Where are you getting the insane idea that the accusations do consistently ruin people's lives forever though? The true ones where the bastards get convicted certainly ruin people's lives, because they're felons guilty of a truly heinous crime, but that's as things should be. Noone should trust someone who's a rapist. Actually I've seen multiple people crucified in the court of public opinion over various things where I'm originally from. One of which was rape. I also saw a guy lose his job because of sexual harassment that didn't happen. I saw a manager get ganged out of a job by a dozen people that made a bunch of poo poo up to get a firing. Once again, the accusations were false and a job was lost. "False accusations never happen, ever" is absolute, complete bullshit and you know it. But you know, keep living in your fantasy land where there aren't people who will exploit literally anything they can out of spite. And what does it matter if it happens every time or not? If it happens at all it's wrong every time. Just like every other crime that exists. This is why "zero tolerance, treat every accusation as if it's true" is absurd. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 19, 2015 08:54
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Actually I've seen multiple people crucified in the court of public opinion over various things where I'm originally from. One of which was rape. I also saw a guy lose his job because of sexual harassment that didn't happen. I saw a manager get ganged out of a job by a dozen people that made a bunch of poo poo up to get a firing. Once again, the accusations were false and a job was lost. "False accusations never happen, ever" is absolute, complete bullshit and you know it. One article of evidence to support this wall?
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Dec 19, 2015 08:59
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Actually I've seen multiple people crucified in the court of public opinion over various things where I'm originally from. One of which was rape. I also saw a guy lose his job because of sexual harassment that didn't happen. I saw a manager get ganged out of a job by a dozen people that made a bunch of poo poo up to get a firing. Once again, the accusations were false and a job was lost. "False accusations never happen, ever" is absolute, complete bullshit and you know it. What makes you so sure they were actually false? You know a lot of people think they aren't doing anything wrong, when they are. You need to treat every accusation as true. Doing this involves actually investigating it instead of just ignoring it because you want to believe that the person is lying. Then, and only then can you start saying "hey this particular accusation seems unfounded". Why do you insist on being able to say an accusation is bullshit without any investigation into it?
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Dec 19, 2015 08:59
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fishmech posted:What makes you so sure they were actually false? You know a lot of people think they aren't doing anything wrong, when they are. What makes me sure? Because I was loving there, that's why. In the sexual harassment incident all it took was an accusation. Somebody goes to management, manager comes over within minutes and fires the guy. No chance to defend himself or anything; just an accusation and that was that. Granted on the other side of it I also saw people getting fired for sexual harassment that did, in fact, totally deserve it. See? Every individual case is different! Some are true, some are false! Wow! No you twit you must not treat it as if it is true. Investigations treat every accusation as if it might be true. The accuser might just flat out be accusing the wrong person with no malice; just a case of mistaken identity. Hell sometimes people make poo poo up for ridiculous reasons. Here's somebody faking a kidnapping to get out of work. http://www.people.com/article/beverly-brooks-florida-panhandle-woman-lies-kidnapping-skip-work And a guy that faked being kidnapped to avoid his girlfriend. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/25/fake-kidnapping-party_n_5708713.html Or hey how about a priest that faked being assaulted. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/11/02/nj-pastor-fake-assault-jairon-pena/ And work again; woman lies about being raped so she wouldn't get punished for missing work. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-woman-faked-rape-story-skipping-work-authorities-article-1.1616446 But you know, people don't ever lie about that sort of thing. And before you say it no I am not posting this as proof that all accusations are automatically false. What I'm saying is that claims of crimes must be treated as if they might be either true or false because an accusation isn't enough to go on. ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Dec 19, 2015 |
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Dec 19, 2015 09:12
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Flectarn posted:people who really care about false accusations are without exception, loving weirdos. You mean false accusations about rape literally no one gives the slightest gently caress about false accusations of any other crime. For some reason.
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Dec 19, 2015 09:13
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Logging on to the "False Rape Accusations" thread to see what we're talking about tonight. Not sure why the title says something about "right wing media-" probably a typo.
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Dec 19, 2015 09:13
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CharlestheHammer posted:You mean false accusations about rape literally no one gives the slightest gently caress about false accusations of any other crime. For some reason. Yeah I sure don't give a poo poo about black men being unjustly accused and prosecuted for crimes they didn't commit. You, on the other hand, agree that they should all be seen as guilty because that's a good way to view crime accusations in the US. I mean, I'm assuming you do, right? You claimed as much
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Dec 19, 2015 09:19
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Well at least you admit it I guess.
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Dec 19, 2015 09:21
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Start a thread about it or something. This is reminding me of watching my parents argue at Thanksgiving dinner in front of everyone. At this point there's no connection to RWM.
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Dec 19, 2015 09:23
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Bast Relief posted:Start a thread about it or something. This is reminding me of watching my parents argue at Thanksgiving dinner in front of everyone. At this point there's no connection to RWM. Well you know, people always want to try to make that as one of those things, well how do you, how do you slice this particularly tough sort of ethical question. First of all, from what I understand from moderators, that's really rare. If it's a legitimate off topic post, the forum has ways to try and shut that whole thing down. But let's assume that maybe that didn't work or something. I think there should be some punishment, but the punishment ought to be on the lovely posters and not attacking the thread. ... I still can't believe that nearly 40% of the dipshits in Todd Akin's district voted for him after that. Also, Christ... quote:In July 2014, Akin's book, Firing Back: Taking on the Party Bosses and Media Elite to Protect Our Faith and Freedom, was published. In it, he said that he regretted apologizing, because, "by asking the public at large for forgiveness, I was validating the willful misinterpretation of what I had said." He also defended his original comments and attacked various Republicans for "wronging" him, including Karl Rove, former National Republican Senatorial Committee Executive Director Rob Jesmer, Senators Mitch McConnell, John Cornyn, John McCain, Roy Blunt and Lindsey Graham and House Speaker John Boehner. He also repeatedly attacked the Republican establishment for seeing his comments "as their opportunity to take [me] out and select someone more palatable to their tastes", and the "liberal media" for making him "the target of a media assassination."
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Dec 19, 2015 10:26
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Apologize in public -> Get a book deal -> Recant in your book pretty cowardly path there Todd
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Dec 19, 2015 11:24
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Bast Relief posted:Start a thread about it or something. This is reminding me of watching my parents argue at Thanksgiving dinner in front of everyone. At this point there's no connection to RWM. This. Increasingly in this thread I'm getting reports for slapfights over stories in the media. That's not what this thread is for!
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Dec 19, 2015 11:40
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Zas posted:Apologize in public -> Get a book deal -> Recant in your book More like...Lose election -> publish book bitching about liberals and RINOs ->  Ever noticed how politicians tend to just happen to poo poo out books whenever they're being talked about?
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Dec 19, 2015 11:42
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Sean Hannity was a dick about Freddie Gray the other day and then got mad when he was called out on it. quote:SEAN HANNITY (HOST): Look at this guy's record, look at his arrest record. You know, remember this is 8:30 in the morning. He runs from cops probably because of the past arrest record this guy had, and maybe the likelihood that he's up to no good at that time in the morning. And, here's the deal. Okay they didn't put the seat belt on the guy. I would say that. But they don't know which cop. In this particular case, the cop said that it was not his duty to put the seat belt in this case.
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Dec 19, 2015 13:26
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Some Guy: "Hey a bad thing that doesn't happen very often is bad, so maybe we should take a very minor measure to make sure it doesn't happen." Thread: "gently caress you your opinion sucks" x100 Some Guy: "I don't think my opinion aucks so allow me to defend it." Thread: "Why are you so obsessed with bad thing happening all the time" You jumped down this guy's throat so hard that you all came out covered in poo poo. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 19, 2015 14:53
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Dabir posted:Some Guy: "Hey a bad thing that doesn't happen very often is bad, so maybe we should take a very minor measure to make sure it doesn't happen." because his complaint is poo poo. this isnt new to any discussion of rape here, and your post is the text form of that reasonable hitler meme
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Dec 19, 2015 14:58
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My god wtf happened here.
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Dec 19, 2015 15:13
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e: Sorry, didn't see a mod posted.
Taeke fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Dec 19, 2015 |
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Dec 19, 2015 15:28
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Jurgan posted:Logging on to the "False Rape Accusations" thread to see what we're talking about tonight. Not sure why the title says something about "right wing media-" probably a typo. Tbf that's a pretty RWM topic, all that's needed is citations.
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Dec 19, 2015 16:03
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Dabir posted:Some Guy: "Hey a bad thing that doesn't happen very often is bad, so maybe we should take a very minor measure to make sure it doesn't happen." People in thread: "Oh god, this derail is dumb" Mod:"Yeah it is, drop it y'all" Genius Poster:"Not before everyone hears my hot take on this derail first!"
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Dec 19, 2015 16:20
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PUGGERNAUT posted:Sean Hannity was a dick about Freddie Gray the other day and then got mad when he was called out on it. Hannity would be the first person to demand he be treated with all of the trappings of due process, as he absolutely should be, but seems to be more than happy to handwave it away when someone who belongs to "the other" is denied that very same right. I'm glad he was being called out on it, but it's not like he'll learn anything.
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Dec 19, 2015 16:20
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Trivia posted:My god wtf happened here. Sometimes even Uber-chat isn't enough to stop a derail...
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Dec 19, 2015 16:25
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DrProsek posted:People in thread: "Oh god, this derail is dumb" Phoneposting and the mod posted on the one page I skipped cause I wasn't interested in reading Yet Another 40 Posts Of This.
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Dec 19, 2015 16:27
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Dabir posted:Phoneposting and the mod posted on the one page I skipped cause I wasn't interested in reading Yet Another 40 Posts Of This. IDK dude if you were going to make a post about it you probably should have read the previous posts about it (or, in the case of the "rape accusations" topic, just done something else instead, like reading, or knitting, or masturbation.)
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Dec 19, 2015 16:44
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Fox Co-Host Suggests Killing Detainees To Close Gitmoquote:ERIC BOLLING (CO-HOST): So, we've just solved the terror problem?
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Dec 19, 2015 16:52
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Thank you, last few posters, for re-railing my thread. God drat am I ever sorry I posted the words "Bill Cosby". I thought mentioning Bill Maher was bad. Holy poo poo.
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Dec 19, 2015 19:32
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