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Kthulhu5000 posted:Yeah, from my experience in university food service, the chefs and cooks know anything they make outside of the typical confines of Western European cuisine is going to be a pale imitation of authentic dishes. It's not maliciousness, it's just a fact of life that kitchen chefs don't get unlimited budgets for labor, ingredients, and facilities, and kitchen staff are usually pressed for time amid all the demands of the food court, student meal plans, and catering events that happen on campus. They take shortcuts, they use the same general ingredients and preparation across multiple dishes, and they prepare food for the palette of the lowest common denominator among the students and faculty. It's more then that, after looking at the original article these kids don't even know their own culinary traditions, it smells of 1st generation immigrants trying to assert a cultural identity they've never actually experienced. Bahn Mi: means literally "wheat bread", it's colloquial usage is more in line with "sandwich" because French colonialism is what introduced bread to the culinary culture of Vietnam. Not only is it not a traditional Vietnamese food, in Vietnam the term refers to literally any sandwich. For an extra dose of irony, the version of bahn mi most of us are familiar with, is only associated with being "the" bahn mi in America, because it's what gained popularity here. General Tsos: Invented in Taiwan, popularized in America, is now sold and marketed in mainland China as "American food" where it has again started to become modified to better appeal to the local (Chinese) palette. The sushi kid is even more of an rear end, he's not even trying complain they got it wrong, he's complaining the quality doesn't meet his standards.
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Dec 21, 2015 02:46
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It would have been an interesting article if it was written as a foody piece about a student who is homesick for some delicious hometown cuisine. As an outrage piece it rightly fails to interest anyone with a sense of perspective.
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Dec 21, 2015 02:47
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Yall are embarrassing me now. Can we please stop making weird assumptions about the kids quoted in the article and insulting them? Nobody in the article called the cafeteria racist. If you actually read the article you'd know the Japanese girl said this “Overall, I think we — including myself — can always learn more about how to admit that we don’t know everything about every culture in the world and have a ‘We’re still trying to learn more’ kind of attitude.” Doesn't sound very classist or elitist to me. Since this thread is dangerously close to becoming Tiny Brontosaurus's strawman I'm going to offer what I think is a decent defense of cultural appropriation as a concept. While it is true cultural appropriation is poorly defined and encompasses numerous disparate issues, this is actually a virtue. By putting many problems impacting minorities and immigrants in one conceptual basket it becomes easier to build a united front more capable of making a difference than many little groups. That the concept is theoretically confused doesn't matter, because its not a strictly defined philosophical tool but rather a form of political rhetoric. Its value is in its ability to mobilize people, and as such its occasional misuse is insignificant, unimportant issues will simply be ignored and forgotten. If people are occasionally alienated by its abuse of the term this is unimportant, those people will always dismiss the validity of minority issues regardless of how they're described. I think cultural appropriation has been a useful concept for these reasons. However the way it is commonly understood sometimes seems to imply a creepy sense of cultural supremacism, which often leads to the same issues of racism and chauvinism most people using the term want to combat. The sense of cultural ownership or property, or attempting to define something as exclusive to one culture, is always problematic.
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Dec 21, 2015 04:13
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But does it have any utility as a political tool? I can't think of anything the language cultural appropriation has actually accomplished. Is its practical use entirely hypothetical?
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Dec 21, 2015 04:46
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In all fairness, the Oberlin article did quote a foreign student that didn't think the dishes were cultural appropriation.
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Dec 21, 2015 04:48
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It's hardly a strawman to observe that goons stick to an extremely tiresome script any time they feel their identities being criticized.
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Dec 21, 2015 08:17
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Whose identities are being criticised? And what's the point of criticising an identity at all? Criticise behaviour.
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Dec 21, 2015 14:10
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Hah they're making a horror movie about Aokigahara Forest and amazingly it stars a white woman who's there to look for another white woman, whoda thunk it. For those who don't know, this forest is a real place where a hugely disproportionate number of Japanese people kill themselves. Suicide is a huge national problem in Japan, a real tragedy. So obviously a good artistic interpretation of that is to turn it into a horror movie and focus on white people.
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Dec 21, 2015 14:26
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Obdicut posted:Hah they're making a horror movie about Aokigahara Forest and amazingly it stars a white woman who's there to look for another white woman, whoda thunk it. For those who don't know, this forest is a real place where a hugely disproportionate number of Japanese people kill themselves. Suicide is a huge national problem in Japan, a real tragedy. So obviously a good artistic interpretation of that is to turn it into a horror movie and focus on white people. And Japnese audiences will love it like they love every other western interpretation of their culture from Kill Bill to The Last Samurai. Appropriation is viewed as validation by large swaths of Japanse culture as evidenced by every soft power initiative ever conceived by the Japanese government.
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Dec 21, 2015 14:55
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Obdicut posted:Hah they're making a horror movie about Aokigahara Forest and amazingly it stars a white woman who's there to look for another white woman, whoda thunk it. For those who don't know, this forest is a real place where a hugely disproportionate number of Japanese people kill themselves. Suicide is a huge national problem in Japan, a real tragedy. So obviously a good artistic interpretation of that is to turn it into a horror movie and focus on white people. Is it based on The Kurosagi Corpse Delivery Service?
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Dec 21, 2015 15:01
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Whose identities are being criticised? And what's the point of criticising an identity at all? Criticise behaviour. Your identity informs your behavior. If you have a toxic identity, such as identifying as a Neo-Nazi, it should absolutely be criticized.
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Dec 21, 2015 15:21
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Let us English posted:And Japnese audiences will love it like they love every other western interpretation of their culture from Kill Bill to The Last Samurai. Appropriation is viewed as validation by large swaths of Japanse culture as evidenced by every soft power initiative ever conceived by the Japanese government. Yes saying absolutely sweeping statements about the Japanese and what they like is sensible. Also, there's no need to think of Japanese and Japanese-Americans separately. Paladinus posted:Is it based on The Kurosagi Corpse Delivery Service? No but I'd like a four-footer delivered this afternoon, please, low-fat, aged.
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Dec 21, 2015 15:26
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I had dinner at a restaurant western China this evening. The sushi rice was under-cooked. This is clearly an appropriative and needs to be stopped. In addition the available sausage was improperly made and the Cantonese seafood sub-bar. Clearly this is misrepresenting the essence of many cultures from around the world. Instead of simply calling the food poo poo and moving on with my life, I came here to express why poorly made yellow curry doesn't just taste bad, but is an affront to the identity and culture of millions. It was almost as bad the roast lamb with cumin and sichuan peppercorn I had at thanksgiving, a grievous affront to Turkish cuisine if there ever was one. The cheesecake was legit at least. Obdicut posted:Yes saying absolutely sweeping statements about the Japanese and what they like is sensible. Also, there's no need to think of Japanese and Japanese-Americans separately. Box office receipts speak for themselves. Japanese people pay millions of dollars every year to see foreigners portray their culture, and spend slightly fewer millions convincing foreigners to come to their country and participate in their culture through tourist initiatives and exchange programs. Nobody brought up Japanese Americans. You're comment seems to be a bit of a non-sequitur given we're talking about appropriation of Aokigahara. Let us English fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 15:28
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Let us English posted:I had dinner at a restaurant western China this evening. The sushi rice was under-cooked. This is clearly an appropriative and needs to be stopped. In addition the available sausage was improperly made and the Cantonese seafood sub-bar. Clearly this is misrepresenting the essence of many cultures from around the world. Instead of simply calling the food poo poo and moving on with my life, I came here to express why poorly made yellow curry doesn't just taste bad, but is an affront to the identity and culture of millions. It was almost as bad the roast lamb with cumin and sichuan peppercorn I had at thanksgiving, a grievous affront to Turkish cuisine if there ever was one. Actually, instead of moving on with your life you came here to post about being real mad at the idea of cultural appropriation. quote:Box office receipts speak for themselves. Japanese people pay millions of dollars every year to see foreigners portray their culture, and spend slightly fewer millions and convincing foreigners to come to their country and participate in their culture through tourist initiatives and exchange programs. Do you get the slightest amount of irony that, in a discussion about racism, you're making sweeping categorical statements about the Japanese, and ignoring the differences between Japanese and Japanese-American? Maybe just a little twinge of it, a slight tremor in the brain-area? quote:Nobody brought up Japanese Americans. You're comment seems to be a bit of a non-sequitur given we're talking about appropriation of Aokigahara. Yeah, representations of Japan and Japanese culture can't have any meaning for Japanese Americans, obviously. I mean, they're in America! Obdicut fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 15:34
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Obdicut posted:Actually, instead of moving on with your life you came here to post about being real mad at the idea of cultural appropriation. I'm saying that Japanese consumers have acted in a certain way that indicates that the sentiment against appropriation is not wide spread. This is not a generalization it is a verifiable fact. I'm saying that in my experience as someone who has lived in Japan, speaks Japanese, and had participated in Japanese life, that I've never seen anyone, ever, under any circumstances raise a single issue with appropriation ever. I never once said or indicated that any individual Japanese person could feel the contrary. Again, this is not a broad generalization of all Japanese people everywhere, it is a personal experience that leads me to believe large numbers of individuals feel a certain way. Again, I don't see how I'm ignoring the difference between Japanese and Japanese-American. You're the one who brought it up apropos of nothing. Japanese-Americans weren't part of the conversation until you accused me of ignoring the distinction for reasons that remain unclear.
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Dec 21, 2015 15:46
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Let us English posted:I'm saying that Japanese consumers have acted in a certain way that indicates that the sentiment against appropriation is not wide spread. This is not a generalization it is a verifiable fact. [...] Again, this is not a broad generalization of all Japanese people everywhere, it is a personal experience that leads me to believe large numbers of individuals feel a certain way. Ignoring that anecdotes aren't evidence, is what you're saying your opinion, or a cold hard fact? Or just whatever is most convenient at the time?
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Dec 21, 2015 15:49
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Who What Now posted:Ignoring that anecdotes aren't evidence, is what you're saying your opinion, or a cold hard fact? Or just whatever is most convenient at the time? It's my opinion based on experience. Anecdotes are evidence. They're not definitive but they are a form of evidence nonetheless. I'm saying Japanese consumer behavior aligns with my personal experience which leads me to believe certain attitudes are widespread.
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Dec 21, 2015 16:04
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Let us English posted:Anecdotes are evidence. So are blurry photographs of UFOs, but the case for extraterrestrial visitation remains rather unconvincing. You need more than your anecdotal experience to make a sweeping statement about a very large population (126 million people in Japan alone). This is not opinion: it is the basis of any kind of competent sociological inquiry.
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Dec 21, 2015 16:20
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Japan has a powerful cultural industry that keeps the country able to resist full-on cultural imperialism. It wouldn't be surprising if such fears are nonexistent outside of 2ch. Contrariwise, France has had a continuous fear of losing its culture to Americanized versions and visions. Of course, that's just the French, and it's OK to view them with contempt for not following us into Iraq.
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Dec 21, 2015 16:24
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Vermain posted:So are blurry photographs of UFOs, but the case for extraterrestrial visitation remains rather unconvincing. You need more than your anecdotal experience to make a sweeping statement about a very large population (126 million people in Japan alone). This is not opinion: it is the basis of any kind of competent sociological inquiry. Which is why I've referenced Japanese consumer behavior multiple times now. As well as the behavior of Japanese authorities. 
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Dec 21, 2015 16:29
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Let us English posted:Which is why I've referenced Japanese consumer behavior multiple times now. As well as the behavior of Japanese authorities. What statistical studies back up your claims?
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Dec 21, 2015 16:30
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Vermain posted:What statistical studies back up your claims? Are there also any statistics on how many Japanese people find depictions of Japan in Western films troubling instances of cultural appropriation, so we could compare the two?
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Dec 21, 2015 16:35
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Obdicut posted:there's no need to think of Japanese and Japanese-Americans separately. This is like the definition of racism though?
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Dec 21, 2015 16:38
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The Kingfish posted:This is like the definition of racism though? Obdicut was blatantly being sarcastic there. Please get a better grasp of figurative language for the future.
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Dec 21, 2015 16:39
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His post made no sense; followed no logical flow.
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Dec 21, 2015 16:42
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The Kingfish posted:His post made no sense; followed no logical flow. He made a clearly sarcastic statement immediately preceding that one, with a connecting word ("Also") that did not break up the flow of the sentence in a way that would indicate a break from the previous sarcastic tone. Moreover, he outright states the opposite position two posts down.
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Dec 21, 2015 16:43
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Vermain posted:What statistical studies back up your claims? Box office totala for films like The Last Samurai. Government funding for programs like Cool Japan. The publicly subsidized "revitalization" of neighborhoods like Akihabara and Harajuku for the benefit of foreigners. Avril Lavinge record sales. Etc. These are some of the many examples of Japanese consumers and the popularly elected government funding "appropriation." You could find those that disapprove but they are mostly racist aging fascists and gangsters with little political clout.
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Dec 21, 2015 16:43
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The Kingfish posted:His post made no sense; followed no logical flow. Yes, it did. It said, using sarcastic language, that it wasn't sensible to think of 127 million people as a single mind, nor to treat Japanese-Americans as indistinguishable from Japanese. Which the post he was responding to did. I'm sorry you're not able to follow this titanic exertion of intellectual energies.
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Dec 21, 2015 16:45
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Well how about that. You were right! E:still lol at 'titanic exertion of intellectual energies' tho
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Dec 21, 2015 16:47
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Let us English posted:Box office totala for films like The Last Samurai. Government funding for programs like Cool Japan. The publicly subsidized "revitalization" of neighborhoods like Akihabara and Harajuku for the benefit of foreigners. Avril Lavinge record sales. Etc. These are not statistical studies. What is the majority Japanese view on the depiction of Japanese culture in Kill Bill? Does the Japanese public view it positively, negatively, or are they neutral on it? Box office numbers are nothing more than a potential indicator of something, much in the same way that, say, a higher rate of a certain disease in a certain population is a potential indicator of something. That's the first stage of investigation, but it's by no means the last. Seeing an indicator, making a postulate, and then declaring it true is college freshman stuff. Vermain fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 16:47
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Let us English posted:Box office totala for films like The Last Samurai. Government funding for programs like Cool Japan. The publicly subsidized "revitalization" of neighborhoods like Akihabara and Harajuku for the benefit of foreigners. Avril Lavinge record sales. Etc. I have seen old veterans, and furthermore there is a vast amount of old veterans who regularly have money raised for them. Given this irrefutable evidence I am prepared to state that no soldiers die in wars. How can they? So much money is raised for old soldiers, the very existence of which is proof that War is not as deadly as we would like to believe.
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Dec 21, 2015 16:48
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Like, is there a single article in Japanese mass media about cultural appropriation? I remember the Avril Lavigne Hello Kitty debacle and Japanese articles basically reported that there was a controversy in the US, but not in Japan. There isn't even a wiki article on cultural appropriation in Japanese.
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Dec 21, 2015 16:58
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Jarmak posted:People who want to also want to claim that it's racism on top of that, especially when they're making something that's alien to them, is a level of pretension worthy of exceptional derision. Social justice proponents have a different view of morality than most people. For one, intent doesn't matter or it matters little in actions and words that are offensive to minorities, so the possible innocent or benign intent of a perceived offender doesn't make his action or words less offensive. This idea that intent doesn't matter is not consistently held by them--indeed, they'd be obligated to totally reform how we do criminal justice if the intent of the perpetrator always didn't matter to them--it only applies to cases where the majority group of a member thereof is offending/oppressing a minority group or a member thereof. So the cooks being poorly trained or pressured to make low cost food or ignorant of how to make Asian food doesn't excuse the action. It is still racist and bad. Secondly, the word racism/racist/sexism/sexist/etc has multiple meanings. On one hand there's an idea a bit like Original Sin in Christianity that the intrinsic state of white men is to be bigoted. So when they label white men as racist it's like calling grass green or water wet, don't take it as an insult, it's not anything you explicitly said or did--it's just in your nature. But on the other hand they like to fling around "racist!" or "sexist!" as a slur and an attack on people they disagree with, so often there is confusion over what they mean and often they hide behind the multiple definitions of the word whenever their ideas are under attack.
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Dec 21, 2015 17:20
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Vermain posted:These are not statistical studies. 'Statistical study' is not a synonym for 'opinion poll'. A nationally totalled box office receipt are clearly a piece of statistical information - not an anecdote.
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Dec 21, 2015 17:29
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Paladinus posted:Like, is there a single article in Japanese mass media about cultural appropriation? I remember the Avril Lavigne Hello Kitty debacle and Japanese articles basically reported that there was a controversy in the US, but not in Japan. There isn't even a wiki article on cultural appropriation in Japanese. Why would there be, and why would it be important if there were or weren't? silence_kit posted:Social justice proponents have a different view of morality than most people. For one, intent doesn't matter or it matters little in actions and words that are offensive to minorities, so the possible innocent or benign intent of a perceived offender doesn't make his action or words less offensive. This idea that intent doesn't matter is not consistently held by them--indeed, they'd be obligated to totally reform how we do criminal justice if the intent of the perpetrator always didn't matter to them--it only applies to cases where the majority group of a member thereof is offending/oppressing a minority group or a member thereof. So the cooks being poorly trained or pressured to make low cost food or ignorant of how to make Asian food doesn't excuse the action. It is still racist and bad. Skeletons sure are scary.
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Dec 21, 2015 17:32
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Obdicut posted:Why would there be, and why would it be important if there were or weren't? I am interested to read what people in Japan think on the subject. To do that, it's important that there is something to read. Does it answer your question?
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Dec 21, 2015 17:36
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The Kingfish posted:It would have been an interesting article if it was written as a foody piece about a student who is homesick for some delicious hometown cuisine. As an outrage piece it rightly fails to interest anyone with a sense of perspective. It actually wasn't an outrage piece, and people who see at as "outrage" have probably encountered it through the filter of online white supremacist groups. *eyes you significantly*
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Dec 21, 2015 17:38
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Ddraig posted:I have seen old veterans, and furthermore there is a vast amount of old veterans who regularly have money raised for them. Massive popularity is in fact strong evidence that a group of people aren't bothered by a thing. This tortured metaphor you've created is just an example of bad logic. This is an exceptionally dumb argument in the context of Japan considering its historic appetite for the consumption and replication of western culture.
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Dec 21, 2015 17:41
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Hopefully food-chat is dying down, but if anyone is interested in a more nuanced take on authenticity in Asian-American food culture I stumbled on this today http://caamedia.org/offthemenu/2015/12/10/keeping-it-real-whats-behind-your-search-for-culinary-authenticity/ .
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Dec 21, 2015 17:44
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Paladinus posted:I am interested to read what people in Japan think on the subject. To do that, it's important that there is something to read. Does it answer your question? Not really, because you asked for a mass media piece. Those don't tend to be good or accurate sources of information. Jarmak posted:Massive popularity is in fact strong evidence that a group of people aren't bothered by a thing. Japan is hugely culturally appropriative--are you saying therefore it's cool to do whatever to them? That if a group is racist it's cool to be racist towards them? And massive popularity is strong evidence that some or maybe most in a group aren't bothered by a thing. Right? I would have that that was common sense.
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Dec 21, 2015 17:57
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