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pigdog posted:But here's the problem. The people who grew up with the original series are grown up now, and would expect films to have grown up as well. This part is great.
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Dec 21, 2015 19:55
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Yeah, I did find myself saying "oh right, the Force," to a lot of things in the movie, much like I did in the OT rewatch leading up to Ep. VII. It wasn't unique to this, just fresher because of its newness.
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Dec 21, 2015 19:55
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Danger posted:This part is great. The lack of self-awareness is refreshing.
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Dec 21, 2015 19:55
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It still kind of blows my mind that there is something that I adored when I was 5 years old (29 years ago), and they've just released something that makes me happy in the exact same way. Try match that, "Thomas The Tank Engine".
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Dec 21, 2015 19:56
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Occasionally I'll read people complain about how FN-2187 can stand toe-to-toe with Kylo Ren for a short while during their lightsaber smash-out in the snowy forest of Starkiller Base, but no one consideres that beyond being able to use the darkside of the force that maybe Kylo hasn't been officially trained on how to use the lightsaber to the degree where he'd instantly best someone with little to no experience using one. Yet I can tune into Youtube and watch a zillion nerds swing around their Force FX lightsabers and look awesome while doing it. Only a few of them actually have some kind of sword training. It doesn't take a master duelist to fight with laser swords.
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Dec 21, 2015 19:57
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Yeah, that was something that was off-putting at the moment but became easier to stomach the more I considered it. It was pretty heavily implied that Luke was the last dude to actually fight with a light saber, meaning that Ren had literally zero real-world experience in light saber on light saber fighting. Sure, they're better than a gun and as ANH shows us, deflecting bolts is step 1 in training, but real world experience would be hard to come by. Unrelated note, Abrams really took the "PT physics don't have any weight to them" argument to heart. When Ren dropped his helmet on the bridge, the thud that thing made drat near made me jump out of my seat.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:01
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ImpAtom posted:It isn't a sloppy moment it is just literally how lightspeed works in Star Wars. Sure, whatever, it doesnt bother me too much. The movies got bigger problems imo.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:03
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Ferrinus posted:You can count me among the people who'd have gladly replaced the end of movie superweapon/space battle with at least a slightly better-realized sketch of the (in-story) politics at work, but I'd have also been happy with like... one long, slow travel scene or something. The actual space battles felt like filler. You were the target audience of all the political jibber jabber of the prequels, weren't you. Trade negotiations and blockades! Vote of No Confidence in Chancellor Valorum's leadership! THIS IS HOW DEMOCRACY DIES, WITH THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE!
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Dec 21, 2015 20:03
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I like that technology has clearly advanced from the prequels, through the originals, and now in the sequel trilogy it's even more advanced.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:05
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f#a# posted:Yeah, that was something that was off-putting at the moment but became easier to stomach the more I considered it. It was pretty heavily implied that Luke was the last dude to actually fight with a light saber, meaning that Ren had literally zero real-world experience in light saber on light saber fighting. Sure, they're better than a gun and as ANH shows us, deflecting bolts is step 1 in training, but real world experience would be hard to come by. That reminds me of the great moment when Kylo takes his helmet off in front of Rey and slams it down on the table like a hammer presumably just to freak her out. That scene was really good.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:06
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AndyElusive posted:You were the target audience of all the political jibber jabber of the prequels, weren't you. Trade negotiations and blockades! Vote of No Confidence in Chancellor Valorum's leadership! THIS IS HOW DEMOCRACY DIES, WITH THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE! Yeah didn't you hate the conference room scene in A New Hope where they talked about the Senate and old religions? It's far less critical to the plot than Palpatine's rise to the top spot or the suspension of democracy.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Frankly, that Kylo Ren is the misguided good guy seemed fairly obvious from the start. The Force Awakens exists interestingly in that contradiction. It asks you to wonder who Rey parents are. At the same time, it's never going to bore us with how Ren fell to the darkside. That might be explained, but most likely in the same way Luke explained Anakin's fall in RotJ. To me, The Force Awakens views mystery as key to Star Wars, but understands that the plot, tone, and themes become burdened when those mysteries aren't answered in the most curt ways possible.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:07
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AndyElusive posted:You were the target audience of all the political jibber jabber of the prequels, weren't you. Trade negotiations and blockades! Vote of No Confidence in Chancellor Valorum's leadership! THIS IS HOW DEMOCRACY DIES, WITH THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE! It's great how her lines from that movie are indistinguishable from a chain letter from my great-aunt.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:10
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I've never really understood the complaints about the politics in the prequels. There's, like, one mention in the opening crawl of TPM, then later there's the Senate scene whose whole point is about how Amidala wants to cut through all the bureaucratic bullshit and is fed up with talk of committees and procedures, and then the rest of the political scenes are Palpatine being an entertaining dick. You'd think from some comments that half the movie is a dissertation on Republic trade law.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:10
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Arglebargle III posted:Yeah didn't you hate the conference room scene in A New Hope where they talked about the Senate and old religions? It's far less critical to the plot than Palpatine's rise to the top spot or the suspension of democracy. That was a great scene though because the pay off was that we got to watch a high ranking Imperial officer beak off about Vaders sad devotion to the Dark Side and summarily get his jugular lightly force choked for it.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:13
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Lord Hydronium posted:I've never really understood the complaints about the politics in the prequels. There's, like, one mention in the opening crawl of TPM, then later there's the Senate scene whose whole point is about how Amidala wants to cut through all the bureaucratic bullshit and is fed up with talk of committees and procedures, and then the rest of the political scenes are Palpatine being an entertaining dick. You'd think from some comments that half the movie is a dissertation on Republic trade law. For better or for worse, having extended scenes on Planet Epcot and political scenes of any length felt like a shift in pacing and focus.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:16
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AndyElusive posted:You were the target audience of all the political jibber jabber of the prequels, weren't you. Trade negotiations and blockades! Vote of No Confidence in Chancellor Valorum's leadership! THIS IS HOW DEMOCRACY DIES, WITH THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE! Well, the interesting thing about the political arrangement hinted at in the movie and made more explicit in this image, whose source I have no idea of because I just happened to see it on another message board (I'm spoilering it just in case but it describes nothing of the movie's actual plot, just some background information never actually delivered):  -is that the Rebels-analogue faction in these films is kind of shady, pretty much the Star Wars equivalent of the Israeli agents who periodically assassinate Iranian nuclear researchers just in case. Like I said, though, it's not exactly that I wanted more politics so much as I wanted fewer space battles. The ending sequence that didn't involve people running around the ground on their feet dragged on and lacked tension.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:17
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I walked out after someone hyperspace jumped within a gravity well
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Dec 21, 2015 20:22
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Lord Hydronium posted:I've never really understood the complaints about the politics in the prequels. There's, like, one mention in the opening crawl of TPM, then later there's the Senate scene whose whole point is about how Amidala wants to cut through all the bureaucratic bullshit and is fed up with talk of committees and procedures, and then the rest of the political scenes are Palpatine being an entertaining dick. You'd think from some comments that half the movie is a dissertation on Republic trade law. The reason is that people care even less about real-world politics. If a superhero TV show were preempted by the Swedish ambassador talking about trade with China is impacting local businesses, people would grab the remote faster than you can blink. When all political thought is intolerable, a single line of dialogue is agonizing. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 20:24
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Vishass posted:I walked out after someone hyperspace jumped within a gravity well Is that a new euphemism? I just found out what 'netflix and chill' was the other week.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:24
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Vishass posted:I walked out after someone hyperspace jumped within a gravity well I walked out when the big bad guy used space magic to freeze a laser bullet in mid-air. Get real, Abrams. Ferrinus posted:Like I said, though, it's not exactly that I wanted more politics so much as I wanted fewer space battles. Ya fair enough, and to be honest some of that background info on the tension between the New Republic, First Order and Resistance is 100x better than anything in the prequels. AndyElusive fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 20:26
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Timeless Appeal posted:The first two Star Wars movies are almost all chase. Literally the entirety of Star Wars is R2 getting the Death Star plans to the Rebels and blowing the thing up. Once Han and Leia leave Hoth, they are on the run from the empire for like the whole goddamned movie. RotJ is different, but also cathartic in that it's the good guys bringing the fight to the bad guys for once. ESB has Luke on Dagobah for most of the movie except when he goes to Cloud City.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:26
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AndyElusive posted:I walked out when the big bad guy used space magic to freeze a laser bullet in mid-air. Get real, Abrams. Didn't Darth Vader do that in Cloud City? This brings me to another point: why don't all Jedis do that? Is it really difficult, or a dark-side-only thing or something? gently caress blocking lasers with your lightsaber like a scrub.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:28
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PT6A posted:Didn't Darth Vader do that in Cloud City? He sort of absorbed it. Kylo did it differently because when he walked away the thing resumed and hit something in the background.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:29
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AndyElusive posted:I walked out when the big bad guy used space magic to freeze a laser bullet in mid-air. Get real, Abrams. Any chance this is an OldEU nod? The original lightsabers were blaster bolts frozen and stuck to handles with the Force.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:30
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Ferrinus posted:Well, the interesting thing about the political arrangement hinted at in the movie and made more explicit in this image, whose source I have no idea of because I just happened to see it on another message board (I'm spoilering it just in case but it describes nothing of the movie's actual plot, just some background information never actually delivered): Thanks for posting that, it makes a lot more sense now
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Dec 21, 2015 20:33
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With regard to the balancing of the force idea, I've always been of the impression that balance comes when there is no more dark side, or that it is safely beaten in every user of the force. The dark side of the force always seemed to me to be a forceful and unnatural things, especially considering the effects it has on an individual's body after long use of those forbidden powers. In other words, when users of force employ dark side techniques, they are throwing the entire force out of balance. Grey force is stupid.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:33
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Zomborgon posted:Any chance this is an OldEU nod? The original lightsabers were blaster bolts frozen and stuck to handles with the Force. Probably not dude.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:33
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Lord Hydronium posted:I've never really understood the complaints about the politics in the prequels. There's, like, one mention in the opening crawl of TPM, then later there's the Senate scene whose whole point is about how Amidala wants to cut through all the bureaucratic bullshit and is fed up with talk of committees and procedures, and then the rest of the political scenes are Palpatine being an entertaining dick. You'd think from some comments that half the movie is a dissertation on Republic trade law. Here's what's to understand: people dislike them, and don't understand that their own expectations are the reason why, so they instead rationalize their dislike using untrue memes.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:34
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Zomborgon posted:Any chance this is an OldEU nod? The original lightsabers were blaster bolts frozen and stuck to handles with the Force. I guess it's possible? I didn't get that impression myself and I didn't catch much in the way of nods to anything Legends.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:35
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Bongo Bill posted:Here's what's to understand: people dislike them, and don't understand that their own expectations are the reason why, so they instead rationalize their dislike using untrue memes. Nobody gave a poo poo about the politics in the prequels until RLM superimposed a total of like 10 seconds of political talk on a TV that two toddlers were watching to illustrate that "Star Wars ain't for kids". Before that moment basically nobody gave a poo poo about the political content, but afterwards everyone uses it as another reason why the prequels suck.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:38
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PT6A posted:Didn't Darth Vader do that in Cloud City? The answer is that it's probably not very useful. it's a neat trick but it's honestly less meaningful than just blocking it, especially if someone shoots you a bunch. Guy A. Person posted:Nobody gave a poo poo about the politics in the prequels until RLM superimposed a total of like 10 seconds of political talk on a TV that two toddlers were watching to illustrate that "Star Wars ain't for kids". Before that moment basically nobody gave a poo poo about the political content, but afterwards everyone uses it as another reason why the prequels suck. Literally on opening night for TPM a guy behind me went "what is this political bullshit when are they getting back to the action?" (or something similar). I do not thing RLM travelled back in time to give him that opinion.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:42
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Stumpus posted:With regard to the balancing of the force idea, I've always been of the impression that balance comes when there is no more dark side, or that it is safely beaten in every user of the force. I gotta disagree on this one. I always felt like bringing balance to the force meant that without the Dark Side there is no Light Side. Anakin is said to bring balance to the force and ends up destroying the Jedi's in the process, that is balance. Many across the galaxy felt the Jedi's were vigilantes, operating on their own moral code that didn't stand up to the regulation of the will of normal citizens throughout the Republic. Jedi's were feared by a lot of species and in a lot of Star Wars media you will find that the common citizen had no love for them. Anakin did bring about balance to the force, he took the power out of the Jedi Order's hands and put it in the hands of the people because ultimately it was normal people who won the war against the Empire. The Jedi Order was a governing body that was ultimately not responsible to anyone, yes they did obey the Senate most of the time but there was nothing stopping them from doing what they wanted and they often did. The Dark Side of the force is just as natural as the Light. The Light side have some powers that aren't natural at all such as mind control and the ability to heal ones self through sheer will. They are two sides of the same coin and one can not exist without the other. I always felt like the Dark Side was only as evil as the person wielding it because as much as the Jedi's want to believe things are black and white, we all know that nothing is ever that simple.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:48
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AndyElusive posted:You were the target audience of all the political jibber jabber of the prequels, weren't you. Trade negotiations and blockades! Vote of No Confidence in Chancellor Valorum's leadership! THIS IS HOW DEMOCRACY DIES, WITH THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE! If they didn't want to deal with political exposition, then they shouldn't have made the plot involve politics. But midway through this movie, there's a big moment where the bad guys' superweapon destroys a system that is supposedly important to the Republic (at first I thought it was Coruscant, but then they said "the Hosnian system" got destroyed so I have no idea), and I didn't have any strong reactions to that because I had no idea how this mattered on a practical level. Yes, there's a line later about how the Resistance won't be able to call upon the Republic fleet, but the Republic wasn't directly helping them out before this happened, so what changed, exactly? Yes, we were never told the exact role of Alderaan in Galactic politics in ANH, but that was different because 1). we are told that Alderaan is Leia's home planet, and 2). Alderaan is where the heroes are headed with the Death Star plans, so we know that this event will necessitate a change of plans. We're given no reason to care about the Hosnian system on either a character or plot level. It's just a set of random planets that get blown up. This is exactly what I'm talking about, assuming that it is legitimate. It makes the story of the movie make so much more sense, and it easily could have been described in a few sentences. "After the Galactic Civil War, the galaxy is divided between a new Galactic Republic and the remnant of the Empire known as the First Order. Though the two sides are officially at peace, the Republic covertly supports a group known as the Resistance that fights against the First Order, while the First Order is working to build a superweapon that could destroy the Republic and the Resistance once and for all." Would tossing some variation of that into the opening crawl have destroyed the movie?
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Dec 21, 2015 20:49
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Guy A. Person posted:Nobody gave a poo poo about the politics in the prequels until RLM superimposed a total of like 10 seconds of political talk on a TV that two toddlers were watching to illustrate that "Star Wars ain't for kids". Before that moment basically nobody gave a poo poo about the political content, but afterwards everyone uses it as another reason why the prequels suck. I specifically remember all the complaining about the political scenes when the movies came out because I thought the different alien senators and flying chairs and poo poo were cool when I was a kid. But there was a great deal of hate for it from the very beginning.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:51
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Yeah, there were definitely complaints as far back as TPM coming out. I dunno, to me, it makes sense that the PT, being about the fall of the Republic, would have a lot more political focus than the OT did (especially since after the one big political scene in ANH, the politics of the Empire become "Palpatine is in charge of everything"). Like, it's going to be different from the OT's structure, but that doesn't make it inherently bad. If people didn't like the execution, that's another matter, but that's not usually how the criticisms are put. Also, like 90% of the political scenes in the prequels feature Ian McDiarmid, so that alone is a point in their favor.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:51
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ImpAtom posted:Literally on opening night for TPM a guy behind me went "what is this political bullshit when are they getting back to the action?" (or something similar). I do not thing RLM travelled back in time to give him that opinion. Cool hearsay but also when I said "nobody" I didn't literally mean nobody ever, I was speaking flippantly about the general trend. It wasn't something that people complained about on the level of Jar Jar or Jake Lloyd's acting, now I feel like you see it everywhere (which hey, is also hearsay, but c'mon dude, when someone says "nobody cares" they are usually speaking hyperbolically, I thought that was understood).
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Dec 21, 2015 20:52
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Guy A. Person posted:Cool hearsay but also when I said "nobody" I didn't literally mean nobody ever, I was speaking flippantly about the general trend. It wasn't something that people complained about on the level of Jar Jar or Jake Lloyd's acting, now I feel like you see it everywhere (which hey, is also hearsay, but c'mon dude, when someone says "nobody cares" they are usually speaking hyperbolically, I thought that was understood). Nah, I remember plenty of people complaining about "space politics" when the films first came out. Which was weird because its not like they go into all that much detail about the Trade Federation, who are just more pawns of Palpatine in the end anyway. INH5 posted:This is exactly what I'm talking about, assuming that it is legitimate. It makes the story of the movie make so much more sense, and it easily could have been described in a few sentences. "After the Galactic Civil War, the galaxy is divided between a new Galactic Republic and the remnant of the Empire known as the First Order. Though the two sides are officially at peace, the Republic covertly supports a group known as the Resistance that fights against the First Order, while the First Order is working to build a superweapon that could destroy the Republic and the Resistance once and for all." Would tossing some variation of that into the opening crawl have destroyed the movie? No, but it was implicit in the film. And much of it was stated outright in the big Nazi-esque speech scene.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:59
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Guy A. Person posted:Cool hearsay but also when I said "nobody" I didn't literally mean nobody ever, I was speaking flippantly about the general trend. It wasn't something that people complained about on the level of Jar Jar or Jake Lloyd's acting, now I feel like you see it everywhere (which hey, is also hearsay, but c'mon dude, when someone says "nobody cares" they are usually speaking hyperbolically, I thought that was understood). It was a very close third to those two, it absolutely was a common thing people complained about.
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Dec 21, 2015 20:59
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Ok well then I stand humbly corrected. I always thought it was a distant ways behind stuff like the CGI characters, everything being shiny, the acting, etc. When RLM did his gag I was kinda taken aback because I didn't remember a ton of politics.
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Dec 21, 2015 21:02
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