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The Dodge of Venice: a 1970 Charger running on a 1970 Fiat 500 engine.
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Dec 22, 2015 13:21
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Panzeh posted:I think the Shinano was more finished as a carrier to add to the number of carriers they could field, same for the Ise conversion. They were a bit desperate. For its size it was a garbage carrier, though. Desperate is a good word. IJN doctrine at that point still probably gave less of a poo poo about sustained ops and more about the combat willingness of remaining forces in order to keep trying to make The doctrine at that time was so radically different from what we now consider reasonable that it's hard to wrap one's head around the mindset because things like "keeping your aces at home as trainers" and "train every seaman in basic firefighting" are such deeply-held paradigms. About the closest thing I can think of is the Bush-era "shock and awe" terminology for decapitation strike and even then that was just the spearpoint of a more or less sustained operation within a relatively confined area given force projection capabilities of the time and still not an attempt to force an equal or near-equal foe into peace negotiations.
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Dec 22, 2015 13:39
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in Symonds' The Battle of Midway, he talks about how the IJN air training cadres made it a point of pride to wash out as many cadets as they could - I think the numbers cited were something like 3 graduating pilots from a class of 25. This made them the Selectors of the Elite more than instructors. Meanwhile, a US instructor who washed out half of his cadets would probably be reprimanded for being an abysmally ineffective teacher. So aside from attritting the hell out of their prime pilots and dismal aircraft production numbers, the IJN handicapped themselves from before anything got started by rejecting pilots who were probably competent, if not ace material. Lots of perfectly good potential IJN pilots probably ended up doing poo poo jobs instead of contributing their most valuable skill to the effort.
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Dec 22, 2015 13:52
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Also, the Shinano wasn't even finished when it was sunk, and the Americans were so incredulous at the skipper's report that they initially denied him credit for the kill on the basis that the ship he claimed to have sunk was absurd.
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Dec 22, 2015 13:55
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FAUXTON posted:Desperate is a good word. IJN doctrine at that point still probably gave less of a poo poo about sustained ops and more about the combat willingness of remaining forces in order to keep trying to make Yeah, a lot of the apparently suboptimal doctrinal decisions were part of an all in bet on an early decisive battle, which truth be told probably maximized their chance of winning the war. That chance was nevertheless so abysmally low that the initial decision to go to war in the first place still stands out as horrendously bad.
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Dec 22, 2015 13:59
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Tevery Best posted:Now I'm imagining some sort of crazy cyberpunk/30YW crossover. Check out Carl Sargents Black Madonna, it's a pretty good mashup of 3rd edition Shadowrun and Renaissance ideas.
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Dec 22, 2015 15:41
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Cythereal posted:Also, the Shinano wasn't even finished when it was sunk, and the Americans were so incredulous at the skipper's report that they initially denied him credit for the kill on the basis that the ship he claimed to have sunk was absurd. To this day, Shinano is the largest warship to be sunk by a submarine.
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Dec 22, 2015 16:00
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Blistex posted:If you sink in shallow enough water you can just get divers to close the WT doors, pump out the undamaged areas of the ship, and refloat them. Depending on the torpedo damage (penning rather than lighting off a magazine or keel breaking) it can sometimes be a pretty easy/fast fix. You're right relatively speaking of course, but goddamn those divers who went into those wrecks to unfuck those things. That is some serious stone cold ballage right there that is pretty much completely unappreciated in the history of warfare. Here's some awesome pics of the Oklahoma being hauled up from her watery grave, which took months and god knows how much material and manpower. Only in America baby... bewbies fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 16:33
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Blistex posted:Like was mentioned, it is probably the #1 fetished warship in history, which is sort of funny considering it is also the single most useless warship in history when you take into account the cost vs. accomplishment metric. Bismarck sunk the Hood, Tirpitz tied up the northern fleet for years, and cost the RAF a lot of time and effort to sink her, and the Iowas did a shitload of shelling and AA cover as well. I can't think of another WWII warship that was a larger waste of time/money/manpower/resources that did less than the Yamato and Musashi. Some of the French or Italian BB's that were sunk early in the war might count, but they come nowhere close to the cost of the Yamato class. The fertilization of the Yamato makes sense then, as it actually doing anything has to happen in imagination. Have a bunch of pictures of armor. Most of the best preserved stuff is (no surpise) stuff made for royalty, and this stuff tends to be very blinged out, so it's a odd combination of "good protection" and "look at how rich I am."      Note the feet:     Shield of Charles V. Solid Silver details, naturally:    Ha, NEEERRRRRDDDD:   French king armor fanciest armor:   
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Dec 22, 2015 17:31
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Trin Tragula posted:Righto. Thanks very much, old bean. Operation Court is as good as it gets. Gericht also means "dish" btw. Apparently, rating the quality of food is serious stuff, like passing a sentence or judging somebody.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:35
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When I get a chance, I'll post some armor photos. I visited the Metropolitan Museum of Art over Thanksgiving.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:58
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The Shinano however wasn't meant to be a combat carrier (as cool as it would've been though!) but a logistics one, meant to help better supply and repair other ships and carriers.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:00
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Koesj posted:Raaargh Gericht also means dish! I want all my military history to be food related! Fall Bräu! Does this mean I can reach and call it "Last Meal"?
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Dec 22, 2015 18:06
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Tevery Best posted:Now I'm imagining some sort of crazy cyberpunk/30YW crossover. Stephenson's Baroque Cycle is basically like this.  It's even written in Snow Crash present tense!
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Dec 22, 2015 18:07
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Trin Tragula posted:Does this mean I can reach and call it "Last Meal"? If you smell what the Generalstab is cooking?
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Dec 22, 2015 18:13
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Those armour photos are great. The POV from inside the armour must have been hugely restrictive though. How much could you really see from such tiny eye-slits?
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Dec 22, 2015 18:14
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Trin Tragula posted:Does this mean I can reach and call it "Last Meal"? Frankly, going by the Gefühl in my Eingeweiden, I'd still go with Operation Judgement. Gericht as judgement is a thing in religious or mythological contexts, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was assigned in that context (or at least with an eye to the ambiguity). It's a complicated matter, though. I'd stall for time and look how other German operations around the date were codenamed. If it's all Unternehmen Postamt or Unternehmen Bahnhof it's much more likely that it means court, if it's Unternehmen Siegfried or Unternehmen Nibelungen it'll mean Judgement. Having successfully overthought things, I will now go back to playing Planierraupensimulator 2016
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Dec 22, 2015 18:19
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Blut posted:Those armour photos are great. Also what's the point of the feet?
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Dec 22, 2015 18:58
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Slavvy posted:Also what's the point of the feet? If you're asking why they armored them at all, for the same reason any part of the body was armored: to protect against injury. Injuries to the foot are very debilitating, and a severe one is incapacitating. If you can't stand you can't fight. If you're asking why they made the goofy pointy sabaton, that was a style choice. Fashionable shoes of the time were also pointed. I think it was a penis thing?
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Dec 22, 2015 19:25
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Blut posted:Those armour photos are great. The eye slits are fine. Just hold your hands up to your face and make s slit with your fingers to see what it's like. Your peripheral vision gets cut off on the vertical axis, but since we have never fought skeletons or dragons, it doesn't really matter Also keep in mind that the more dramatically narrow slotted armour is actually jousting armour, which is made to protect knights in a very specific set to of circumstances and wouldn't be used in war. Soldiers were more often concerned with how their helmets affected their hearing rather than their vision. If you cover your head completely in metal, you change the acoustics surrounding your ears,doubly so with the cotton padding most European soldiers wore. Light cavalry guys and early middle age infantry preferred helmets that left a gap for their ears, and The fanciest munitions armour (like morions) do their best to preserve a hearing channel Slavvy posted:Also what's the point of the feet? If you're on a horse, somebody flailing at you could easily hit your foot. If you're not mounted, you don't want to be the guy who died because their foot got stomped while grappling and fell over and then got spiked through the face with a stiletto Slim Jim Pickens fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 19:42
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It's always a penis thing.
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Dec 22, 2015 19:43
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Ask us about Military History: It's always a penis thing.
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Dec 22, 2015 19:52
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This seemed like the most appropriate place to put this: [url]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35162393]A right wing German politician just got in trouble for having a death camp tattoo. No, not Jewish kind, the "I'm a nazi and love this poo poo" kind[/url] THe "best" part is that it's a KZ Lager tramp stamp:  edit: he's also an idiot. The picture is of Auschwitz but the motto is from the front gate of Buchenwald. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 19:53
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EvanSchenck posted:If you're asking why they armored them at all, for the same reason any part of the body was armored: to protect against injury. Injuries to the foot are very debilitating, and a severe one is incapacitating. If you can't stand you can't fight. With how debilitating any injury could be in medieval times, I'd imagine armoring as much of the body as possible for warfare was vital. The lack of knowledge of vectors of infection meant that wounds that would be relatively minor today (or severe but with a high chance of survival) could result in illness, amputation, and potentially death in the 13th century. Took a big cut across the arm in battle? Hope you got to keep the whole thing and didn't die of sepsis! Today you'd just go home with a gnarly scar to talk about over drinks.
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Dec 22, 2015 19:56
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What's the point of besagew and couter? Half of that armor looks super pimpin, while the other half looks like it belongs in Dark Souls. I think I've been cured of RPG love of plate, anyways. Mail + tabard looks a lot more bitchin.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:15
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JcDent posted:What's the point of besagew and couter? Besagews prevent thrusts from going under the armpit, and couters deflect elbow strikes.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:17
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That tattoo is certainly in the top ten of worst loving things to ever scar into your skin with ink lists in my head now.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:24
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I always had a toy "hypothesis" that to some extent knights' boots (and then the sabatons) looked like that partially to help get into and stay in stirrups. I noticed a while back that cowboy boots and riding boots also have pointy toes and heels Now obviously the making the point 8 inches long is something totally else, but it always made me wonder. No idea how to even research something that vague though.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:48
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Xiahou Dun posted:I always had a toy "hypothesis" that to some extent knights' boots (and then the sabatons) looked like that partially to help get into and stay in stirrups. I noticed a while back that cowboy boots and riding boots also have pointy toes and heels I thought it was just the shoe fashion of the time - a classic case of conspicuous consumption, men would compete over who had the most leather in their shoes (eventually this got so out of hand that rulers would set restrictions to how long a shoe could be etc.).  It's still a thing in Finland, though. 
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Dec 22, 2015 21:01
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Nenonen posted:I thought it was just the shoe fashion of the time - a classic case of conspicuous consumption, men would compete over who had the most leather in their shoes (eventually this got so out of hand that rulers would set restrictions to how long a shoe could be etc.). Their hair matches!
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Dec 22, 2015 21:02
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chitoryu12 posted:The lack of knowledge of vectors of infection meant that wounds that would be relatively minor today (or severe but with a high chance of survival) could result in illness, amputation, and potentially death in the 13th century. Took a big cut across the arm in battle? Hope you got to keep the whole thing and didn't die of sepsis! Today you'd just go home with a gnarly scar to talk about over drinks. This is sort of not true: the medieval peeps knew how to treat cuts and do stitches and wash wounds, the problem, like today, was puncturing wounds where it's far more likely that the wound will get infected.
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Dec 22, 2015 21:15
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xthetenth posted:There's a lot of recruits in the early modern getting their pay deducted till they've paid off their armor. Tevery Best posted:Now I'm imagining some sort of crazy cyberpunk/30YW crossover. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 21:37
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Nenonen posted:I thought it was just the shoe fashion of the time - a classic case of conspicuous consumption, men would compete over who had the most leather in their shoes (eventually this got so out of hand that rulers would set restrictions to how long a shoe could be etc.). O yeah. My idea only goes to why pointy toe and heels might be a thing, vaguely sort of backed up by it coinciding kind of a little bit with the stirrup. (And is based on tummy feels so obviously should not be trusted.) Turning your shoes into canoes is obviously its own thing.
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Dec 22, 2015 21:42
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Kemper Boyd posted:This is sort of not true: the medieval peeps knew how to treat cuts and do stitches and wash wounds, the problem, like today, was puncturing wounds where it's far more likely that the wound will get infected. Did they also understand the use of alcohol for cleaning wounds?
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Dec 22, 2015 21:42
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EvanSchenck posted:This is essentially what munition armor was, yes.
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Dec 22, 2015 21:57
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:If you're on a horse, somebody flailing at you could easily hit your foot. If you're not mounted, you don't want to be the guy who died because their foot got stomped while grappling and fell over and then got spiked through the face with a stiletto I should point out, however, that men fighting as infantry would often forgo full armored protection to the feet and lower legs, partly to save weight and improve mobility, and partly because those extremities were in less danger on foot. If you're not riding a horse then your muscles are responsible for carrying all the weight, so any savings helped. Also, if you're riding a horse and you encounter men on foot, your shins and feet are their most accessible targets, so you kind of need to armor them. On foot, they're too low to be readily attacked and doing so brings your weapon partly out of line and compromises your guard. They're actually kind of hard to hit even then because you can move them out of the way of attacks relatively easily. Kemper Boyd posted:This is sort of not true: the medieval peeps knew how to treat cuts and do stitches and wash wounds, the problem, like today, was puncturing wounds where it's far more likely that the wound will get infected. Right, we shouldn't exaggerate how poor medieval medicine was. We've recovered remains of soldiers that show evidence of surviving and recovering from more severe wounds than you would expect, like guys who had notches in their bones from sword cuts that went all the way into their bodies, and stuff. You were much more likely to be permanently maimed or to die from a lot of injuries, but it wasn't like any given wound was an automatic death sentence. Sometimes it's surprising what medieval surgeons were able to do. Still, there's a lot of injuries they just couldn't do anything about. Henry VIII hosed up his leg jousting at age 27 and historians today speculate that it changed the entire course of his life and had a profound effect on English and European history. e: HEY GAL posted:When half the Mansfeld Regiment mutinied and left, they sold their armor and weapons or just ditched them, and Dam Vitzhumb von Eckstedt, who was writing the letter about this, sniffed: "And they were still two-thirds indebted for it!" that is loving great
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Dec 22, 2015 22:02
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SeanBeansShako posted:That tattoo is certainly in the top ten of worst loving things to ever scar into your skin with ink lists in my head now.
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Dec 22, 2015 22:23
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chitoryu12 posted:Did they also understand the use of alcohol for cleaning wounds? Do wounds in mouth or other parts of digestive system count? HEY GAL posted:it's not the worst auschwitz tattoo ever though  
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Dec 22, 2015 22:27
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HEY GAL posted:it's not the worst auschwitz tattoo ever though If I ever get to the point where I think "meh, I've seen worse Auschwitz tattoos" well then I just don't even know what. e: oh dear that one totally passed me by. hogmartin fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 22:28
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Nenonen posted:Do wounds in mouth or other parts of digestive system count? I'm sure they used it for wounds on the inside, if you know what I mean.
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Dec 22, 2015 22:30
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