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The Ferret King posted:Cool beans. Basics was tedious but beneficial. Thanks for the advice; I've been hearing that much pretty much since day 1 and I can definitely see how that would be beneficial. Up until last week I had lunch every day in int'l hall too. I don't think I'll be back over there in the next few weeks but I'll keep an eye out!
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Dec 5, 2015 05:04
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| # ? May 10, 2024 13:36 |
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Question(s) about contract towers and ramps: As I will, likely, only get one more chance at getting into ATC through the FAA, I might be looking at contract towers. SEATAC Ramp is actually hiring, and I should be getting my ATC and Dispatch AAS degrees in a bit (classes just ended). I know CTO and military are preferred, but I've not seen either as a requirement, just that they'll be given priority. I understand a contract environment will be run differently than a government one, but that's doesn't concern me. My main question is whether or not experience as a contract controller is applicable towards FAA ATC. I have a feeling the answer is "no", and assume the competition to get into one will more than likely be steep, considering the slew of ATC grads that have been shafted by the hiring changes and senior controllers who don't want to leave the field.
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Dec 5, 2015 05:05
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FK and two beer bishes are invited to fly in my airplane with me while in OKC Have your affairs in order.
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Dec 5, 2015 05:10
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Captain Apollo posted:FK and two beer bishes are invited to fly in my airplane with me while in OKC Holy poo poo are you serious? I haven't flown in 7 years according to my logbook (fuuuuck) and I brought my headset along! What airport do you fly out of?
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Dec 5, 2015 05:31
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two_beer_bishes posted:Thanks for the advice; I've been hearing that much pretty much since day 1 and I can definitely see how that would be beneficial. Up until last week I had lunch every day in int'l hall too. I don't think I'll be back over there in the next few weeks but I'll keep an eye out! Where are you staying? I didn't drunkenly ramble at your table at Isola Bella Bar the night before Thanksgiving, did I? ...no. no way. You would have remembered the beard.
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Dec 5, 2015 07:47
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That beard really is something.
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Dec 5, 2015 07:57
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I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours. Beard, I mean. 
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Dec 5, 2015 19:14
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The Ferret King posted:Where are you staying? I didn't drunkenly ramble at your table at Isola Bella Bar the night before Thanksgiving, did I? I'm at Kim's Place. I've seen one or two magnificent beards while walking around though!
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Dec 5, 2015 19:46
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Yenko, you've got nothing on FK. NOTHING. His beard makes that look like a tiny mustache.
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Dec 5, 2015 23:07
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I'm considering bidding on an FLM position at ZDV. What's wrong with me? I figured I'd wait a few more years before trying to get out of ZKC, but I don't really have poo poo going on here. Lots of reasons to wait, like the thing where I just bought a house a year ago and the housing market in Denver is really retarded, I'm not a huge fan of becoming a supervisor, etc... However, I've heard of people getting 2 year release dates from ZKC, so now might be as good of a time as any? I'd prefer to go as a controller, but I know that will be more difficult. I'd prefer to stay away from plan C which involves knocking up some chick on one of my snowboarding trips and getting a hardship 
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Dec 12, 2015 21:47
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fknlo posted:I'd prefer to stay away from plan C which involves knocking up some chick on one of my snowboarding trips and getting a hardship There is no shame in an anchor baby.
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Dec 12, 2015 22:00
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MrYenko posted:There is no shame in an anchor baby. Gotta do what you gotta do. Looks like there might be a couple of options for me. Right now is probably the best time for me to put in for an ERR. My area is going to be "fat" for a while with a bunch of guys getting checked out over the next year. One of the sup jobs is also temporary. My current facility would technically still own me, but they can apparently work it out to give you some type of other permanent position at the new facility so they'd own rights to you which would allow me to stay after the 13 month period was over and I either wasn't offered a permanent job or turned it down. There is the possibility that I'd like being a sup since I'm really lazy and enjoy doing nothing. The lack of breaks would suck though. I would be looking at about an 18% raise with the FLM base pay being about $10k more than I make now and locality being another 8% more than I get now. All to go to a lower level facility. The only thing I have going on here in KC is my house, and I'd probably keep it and rent it out. Then I'd just rent in Denver since the real estate market out there is mega retarded. Wait for it to crash again and then go hog wild 
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Dec 13, 2015 15:12
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Applying for things is so loving tedious. Gotta make a new resume, fill out a bunch of paperwork, etc... The worst part is that I'm going to have to get passwords to my email, EOPF, and my ID card reset because I'm locked out of all of them 
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Dec 19, 2015 03:12
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I'm pretty much continually locked out of employee express. Any website that has to MAIL you your password is one that can just gently caress right off.
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Dec 19, 2015 05:19
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MrYenko posted:I'm pretty much continually locked out of employee express. I'm in the same boat. They mailed me my login info and a reset code, I used it to make a new password and wrote that down so I couldn't get it wrong. Won't let me log in and so I request a new code which they mail me. Make a new password and again write it down, try logging in and still can't. It can't be me at this point, the system is just stupid.
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Dec 19, 2015 11:21
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They told my class on day 1 that we would have the employee express info mailed to us within 4 weeks. Not a single person got it! We all had to request another password to be sent and even then for me it took 8 days of emailing and another 5 days to get it. What a joke
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Dec 19, 2015 14:24
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I'm not going to broadcast it in the OP, because it's not an open announcement for everyone. But, the FAA has opened a previous experience job bid for folks who have already been air traffic controllers: Job Title: Air Traffic Control Specialist quote:KEY REQUIREMENTS Interesting detail: quote:THIS POSITION IS AN OPEN CONTINUOUS ANNOUNCEMENT. THE FIRST CUT-OFF WILL BE IN 30 DAYS AND EVERY 30 DAYS THEREAFTER UNTIL THE CLOSING DATE. It appears they are going to keep this open on a rolling basis until the required vacancies are filled, whatever that means. Until then, the staffing crisis continues.  NATCA Discusses Air Traffic Controller Staffing Shortage at Congressional Roundtable National air traffic controller staffing numbers NATCA updated their website recently so I'm plugging their new graphics showing how hosed we all are. I'm still hoping we'll see another open announcement in the 1st quarter of 2016. The Ferret King fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 17:27
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why don't they just hire and train more? i don't get it
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Dec 22, 2015 21:04
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Because they are horribly inept. They've known this was coming for decades and planned poorly. In addition, another 30% of current controllers are eligible to retire today. They could leave at any time, whether spread out or all at once. This is going to get worse before it gets better. The Ferret King fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 21:58
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The Ferret King posted:Because they are horribly inept. One of the areas in my building has 16 people that will be forced to retire within 2.5 years. All of our areas are hovering in the low 30's as far as staffing goes. Literally half of the area is being forced out in less than 3 years. It takes 2.5 - 3 years on average to get someone at my facility checked out. Horribly inept doesn't begin to describe it. From our last meeting on staffing, somewhere around 75% of the people that get an offer letter either never show up to the academy, wash out of the academy, or wash out of their first facility. I asked if they hire with that in mind and was told yes, they do. That is a loving lie. New ERR stuff came out yesterday too. Basically, if your facility is above "x" level as far as staffing is concerned and you're trying to go to a facility that is in worse shape as far as staffing is concerned your current facility can only block your release for a defined amount of time. Now I need to find out what the official numbers are for my facility and then hope one of the facilities in Denver is in bad shape(but not mandatory overtime bad  ) so that I don't have to rely on a supervisor bid to get out! I'm obviously not helping the situation, but if I'm going to be somewhere with lovely working conditions it might as well be next to some mountains and poo poo. I love KC, but I need to get out of here.
fknlo fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 23:17
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They should hire me. That'd be a great idea. Put me in coach!
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Dec 23, 2015 01:41
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Pope Mobile posted:They should hire me. That'd be a great idea. Put me in coach! This is the really frustrating part; It's not a shortage of candidates, there's a loving line around the proverbial block for this job, but the FAA as an organization can't be trusted to staff a loving burger joint, let alone the NAS.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:11
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http://bigstory.ap.org/article/c821a75b145442dea1ef46043a0799c8/us-cuba-reach-understanding-restoring-commercial-flights We're so hosed. 
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Dec 23, 2015 17:35
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We? Are you saying that because you're Florida ATC? (If I remember right?)
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Dec 23, 2015 17:39
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Captain Apollo posted:We? Are you saying that because you're Florida ATC? (If I remember right?) I work mostly northbound domestic departure traffic from south Florida, so it doesn't DIRECTLY impact me, but holy poo poo. This is a big deal for a multitude of reasons.
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Dec 23, 2015 18:59
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MrYenko posted:I work mostly northbound domestic departure traffic from south Florida, so it doesn't DIRECTLY impact me, but holy poo poo. This is a big deal for a multitude of reasons. Why the stop to all Miami/Jacksonville center airports today? Or did I read that wrong? I'm not used to the new place's information display systems yet.
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Dec 23, 2015 19:40
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The Ferret King posted:Why the stop to all Miami/Jacksonville center airports today? Or did I read that wrong? I'm not used to the new place's information display systems yet. No idea, I've been on leave for a week, and don't go back till New Year's Eve. I'll poke around a bit.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:41
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MrYenko posted:I work mostly northbound domestic departure traffic from south Florida, so it doesn't DIRECTLY impact me, but holy poo poo. This is a big deal for a multitude of reasons. Why is this a big deal?
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Dec 24, 2015 07:16
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A normal day going into seatac.. "say best forward speed".... .79, maybe .80 if it stayed smooth. "Okay maintain at or above .79..".. 20 minutes later... "slow to .72"... you can see where this is going. Sped up/slow down no less than 6 times and that was about 100nm before we hit the arrival. We also got a delay vector off course and then cleared back to BTG. And then on the arrival, maintain 250 kts..... delete speed you can resume 270... maintain 250... maintain 210... Finally got our turn onto the ILS with maintain 170 til FINKA and then... "maintain 150 kts".. well that last one we couldn't do, our approach speed due to the super gusty winds and icing was 163 kts, so we were 'unable'.. "okay i may have to break you off, the dash in front of you is about to slow down"... fortunately it just barely worked (thanks to the horizon crew since atc was like "oh they didn't really slow down", i'm sure they heard us..)... I guess my question is, was there some big picture plan here that I'm just not seeing? From the pilot end of it, I don't mind speeding up and slowing down, and I expect it on the arrival certainly, but wtf, really? I know we can't see the big picture, but sometimes it just gets bizarre...
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Dec 24, 2015 08:32
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The Slaughter posted:A normal day going into seatac.. "say best forward speed".... .79, maybe .80 if it stayed smooth. "Okay maintain at or above .79..".. 20 minutes later... "slow to .72"... you can see where this is going. Sped up/slow down no less than 6 times and that was about 100nm before we hit the arrival. We also got a delay vector off course and then cleared back to BTG. And then on the arrival, maintain 250 kts..... delete speed you can resume 270... maintain 250... maintain 210... Finally got our turn onto the ILS with maintain 170 til FINKA and then... "maintain 150 kts".. well that last one we couldn't do, our approach speed due to the super gusty winds and icing was 163 kts, so we were 'unable'.. "okay i may have to break you off, the dash in front of you is about to slow down"... fortunately it just barely worked (thanks to the horizon crew since atc was like "oh they didn't really slow down", i'm sure they heard us..)... I guess my question is, was there some big picture plan here that I'm just not seeing? From the pilot end of it, I don't mind speeding up and slowing down, and I expect it on the arrival certainly, but wtf, really? I know we can't see the big picture, but sometimes it just gets bizarre... Get ready for some words, I'm having my coffee and I do some of my best sperging in the mornings. You were handled by multiple controllers during this time. So, while it's certainly possible that all of them were garbage, performance wise, I'll give us ATC more credit and say that the winds were seriously messing with everyone's plan. If you're toward the front of a line of aircraft encountering new weather conditions, you could be the guinea pigs that determine how ATC will handle trailing flights until the weather passes. I'm not as familiar with En Route speed control so I don't know exactly what would cause multiple increases/decreases there. However, your terminal handling seems about normal up to the point that they put you too close to the Dash 8. As you arrived into the terminal area, Center is probably required to have you at a certain speed (like 250kts) per a letter of agreement. Approach gets a hold of you and maybe you're ahead of the pack in terms of getting to the airport but it's a long line behind you, so there's no reason to keep you slow until you get closer to the airport. When I say the line behind you, I don't just mean the airplanes directly behind you, but also the ones arriving from other corners of the airspace opposite you (that's the big picture concept, because you can't see the airplanes arriving 100nm on the other side of the terminal area). Once you close up that gap and get snuggled in to their radar traffic pattern near the airport, they have to start slowing you down so that you can get vectored onto the final and be able to match speeds with the guy ahead of you at a certain distance. Now, normally, matching speeds with some extra space allowed for compression will run smoothly all day long. But, with high winds, you'll be experiencing different winds at altitude than the guys closer to the airport who are lower, and this throws off the mileage "count." So, if Approach is accustomed to putting airplanes 4NM in trail of each other on final, speed 170kts, knowing it'll almost always result in 2.5NM-3NM after compression at the runway, with high winds they now have to figure out what's going to work consistently. Depending on where the shear layer is and how it's affecting the airplanes, they might actually start out with 3NM (or less and use altitude) and have the separation INCREASE as the airplanes get closer to the runway because of the winds affecting aircraft differently as they descend on the approach. Some days 4 miles gets you 3. Some days 5 miles gets you 3. Some days 7 miles gets you 3. If Traffic Management isn't doing their job properly to delay aircraft on the ground, then the airspace starts to back up during peak arrival times and a lot of last minute control decisions are attempted to keep everything running. Absolutely nobody wants to send an airplane around for separation, because now they have even LESS room to work than before. Traffic backup during high winds and busy arrival periods is a certainty even if every single airplane achieved perfectly minimal spacing on the runways, which isn't humanly possible. All that said (a lot of it is for other readers, I know you understand a lot of these concepts already), you were turned too closely behind the Dash 8. Could have been wind unexpectedly messing with your two flight's separation mileage count, but at that point it was probably just that the controller turned you in too tight thinking they still had some margin to ask you to slow a bit more if they needed it. Perhaps everyone else was accepting 150kts without much trouble. Once you took away that option, you forced their hand to either watch it progress for a bit, or send you around. Since it worked out, clearly the last speed reduction wasn't necessary. So their judgment was a little off there too. As we observe the compression rate develop, it becomes more and more difficult to determine a good sequence vs. one that will likely lose separation. The distinction gradually becomes more difficult as the margin gets smaller, to a point where it's not really possible to know that your two airplanes WILL have 2.5NM separation at the runway instead of 2.49NM. Once the computer detects anything less than adequate separation, automated reports are going to get made and people start looking at what you're doing. Anyway, it all boils down to ATC's effectiveness at: 1) Developing a plan that will work 2) Actually executing that plan properly 3) Handling unexpected conditions as they pop up Hopefully the plan is good enough that #2 is relatively easy to accomplish and #3 is always gonna happen occasionally so you just have to be able to react. If ATC was handling all of their flights that day as though the wind wasn't affecting things, then they've set themselves up for a mad scramble as aircraft begin to get too close together. "This speed/mileage always works! This isn't working... WHY isn't this working? Crap, somebody needs to slow down or turn out." Once this is recognized, returning to the typical habits is insanity, but it definitely happens. There could have been newer controllers handling your flight. Maybe they had a good plan but their timing was off. Since 20kts was make-or-break for your controller, maybe they could have just had you slow to 170kts a tad sooner, and turned you an extra .5 miles behind the Dash 8. But maybe they didn't have room for that, or didn't realize they had room for that, or they aren't capable of working at an accuracy of .5 miles (they should be, at a place like Seattle, but we work with all kinds). I hope this was more helpful than rambling. There are just so many variables that it makes it tough to speculate exactly why things were done a certain way. The only constant I can offer is that wind screws everyone up, and there are a lot of newbie air traffic controllers in the system right now who are working 50+ hours per week. There are also some veteran controllers in the system that would make you shake your head.
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Dec 24, 2015 12:35
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luminalflux posted:Why is this a big deal? Well having to rewrite terminal procedures, create brand new SIDs, STARS, new LOAs, SOPs and oceanic sectors and procedures to go with them is a pretty big deal. Not to mention handling the increased traffic both arrivals and departures, okay so Cuba's flag carrier isn't large but there's still a training burden there and there will be connecting flights from other Latin America carriers seeking to serve the US via Cuba and the reverse.
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Dec 24, 2015 15:27
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The Slaughter posted:A normal day going into seatac.. "say best forward speed".... .79, maybe .80 if it stayed smooth. "Okay maintain at or above .79..".. 20 minutes later... "slow to .72"... you can see where this is going. Sped up/slow down no less than 6 times and that was about 100nm before we hit the arrival. We generally try to throw out as few speed changes as possible, but that doesn't always work. Change in plans, winds not doing what you think, TMU with a release that totally wasn't bad, etc... The best is when you vector guys around to get the miles in trail you need and then TMU calls you to put one of them on an offload route. Or maybe it was something like my Monday to Tuesday midshift where I'm the last controller before Indy Center and they need 20 miles in trail on SDF landers and I'm getting 10 or 15 miles tops from the previous controller with stupid rear end winds and I end up with 10 different UPS's on 90 degree vectors because it's fun!
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Dec 24, 2015 17:00
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SeaborneClink posted:Well having to rewrite terminal procedures, create brand new SIDs, STARS, new LOAs, SOPs and oceanic sectors and procedures to go with them is a pretty big deal. Not to mention handling the increased traffic both arrivals and departures, okay so Cuba's flag carrier isn't large but there's still a training burden there and there will be connecting flights from other Latin America carriers seeking to serve the US via Cuba and the reverse. All of this, plus the fact that Havana center has unreliable communications with us, and zero automation, meaning that all flight plan information must be passed manually, which is a huge time-sink. I'm not completely clear on that chunk of airspace, since I don't work it, but the people who do aren't exactly relishing the idea, particularly because the west side of it is already the 1st or 2nd busiest area in the building (we swap back and forth with them,) and the eastern side is the 3rd. It's not like the additional traffic will be going through empty airspace, is what I'm getting at.
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Dec 24, 2015 17:28
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MrYenko posted:All of this, plus the fact that Havana center has unreliable communications with us, and zero automation, meaning that all flight plan information must be passed manually, which is a huge time-sink. I'm not completely clear on that chunk of airspace, since I don't work it, but the people who do aren't exactly relishing the idea, particularly because the west side of it is already the 1st or 2nd busiest area in the building (we swap back and forth with them,) and the eastern side is the 3rd. It's not like the additional traffic will be going through empty airspace, is what I'm getting at. Oh for sure, I was just trying to post from a US perspective without trying to throw Havana center under the bus since I'm neither ATC or ATP. RIP Florida sectors. Bet you're glad you don't have to redraw your airspace.
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Dec 25, 2015 03:21
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The Ferret King posted:Lots of Stuff stuff stuff stuff. That was actually a pretty good explanation, thanks. On our end I'm trying to give the controllers a break cause I know the wind is annoying and I usually expect at least one metering turn near BTG cause it happens pretty much every night it's north flow and a good bet on the south flow if the field's IMC. But sometimes it's like "loving wow". I assume there are plenty of "loving wow" moments on the controllers end with regards to the pilots, however.. we're all human. And in retrospect we usually slow to about 132-140 on final with calm winds, 163 is certainly not super normal although our groundspeed was probably pretty close to normal with the strong winds all the way down to the 30 kt surface headwind, but I guess the pilot monitoring could have said something to the effect of 'for planning, we're restricted to this speed' somewhere before the turn and that might have been beneficial. We were pretty task saturated at the time though. The Slaughter fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Dec 25, 2015 |
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Dec 25, 2015 06:25
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I heard a nifty warning out of a UPS 757 yesterday "Approach, we're pretty light today, for your planning purposes we'll be at 90kts inside the marker." The controller was very thankful for the heads up. Some of the bigger guys can get so much slower than you'd expect.
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Dec 25, 2015 20:04
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Holy poo poo, 90 kts? Haha. I can't even imagine the flaps on that thing. I think if we did flaps full (which we rarely do) extremely light we still couldn't touch that. I'd say our average vAPP is 130-140 kts. Looking at our absolute minimum vref with flaps 5, it's 112 kts. At flaps full, 105 kts. Plus we'd always add 5 knots min to vref. But we'd have to be 52,000 lbs to hit those speeds. Basic operating weight for the 170s averages but is usually about 50493, so you're probably into your reserve fuel if you're that light and certainly on an empty ferry.
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Dec 25, 2015 22:54
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The Ferret King posted:I heard a nifty warning out of a UPS 757 yesterday Last flight I did on an empty 752 the controller in Gatwick asked for our approach speed on final... 107 knots due to 30 knot head wind... ground speed 77 knots. Departing traffic loved the gap, everyone behind fumed. That was flap 25 if memory serves. The Airbus tries to maintain a groundspeed rather than airspeed so when windy on final the speed will regularly fluctuate from 170-130 all the way in to maintain windshear prevention. Now that really screws with controllers brains (hint: search Ground Speed Mini function on Airbus) as sometimes in Tenerife we go to landing flap and speed up! hjp766 fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Dec 26, 2015 |
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Dec 26, 2015 19:57
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Light or not, I have to wonder what was his headwind.
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Dec 31, 2015 04:16
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| # ? May 10, 2024 13:36 |
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A: I just finished two weeks of vacation. B: We had a 10,300 count day while I was gone. Good time to take leave. C: Can't wait to finish this time based flow metering lesson so that we can never ever use it ever.
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Dec 31, 2015 23:59
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