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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7rLMLjZlG0
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Dec 23, 2015 06:48
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I'm like 90% sure Snoke is Plagueis.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:53
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Snoke is literally Darth Vader, but without Anakin. Snoke's bizarre, rhythmless choral leitmotif is the same noise that can be heard at the 'opera': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLfGh2b_me0 [Embed] where Sheev tells Anakin >Darth Plagieous was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create... Life. He had such a knowledge of the Dark Side, he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying. >The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. When Sheev got lifted up, his last act wasn't just to shock Anakin to death- it was to save the one he cared about most from dying. Vader. He used the Force to excise everything in the Dark Side that resided in Vader and give it a corporeal form separate from Anakin. Thus, Snoke came to be.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:59
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  JJ Abrams and Hideo Kojima are both big fans of massive, multimedia ARGs. I have little doubt that everything that's happened between Kojima and Konami is part of an overarching Lucasfilm/Disney metagame. Lumpy the Cook fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 07:05
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 Big Boss's/Venom Snake's facial scars are also a defining physical point of his character.
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Dec 23, 2015 07:08
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Is it possible to dislike the film, while appreciating both Rey and Kylo Ren, and having no problems with either their characters, or the acting? If you use the term "Mary Sue" in a non fanfiction context, you are an idiot. This is non-negotiable. also my special fan theories: Rey's parents are characters we have not yet met or may never meet because they are dead Snoke is also a new character Greedo shot first 
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Dec 23, 2015 07:10
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Spatula City posted:Is it possible to dislike the film, while appreciating both Rey and Kylo Ren, and having no problems with either their characters, or the acting? Sure. I don't really like this film but it's mainly because the first half has almost no time to breathe and the second half is dominated by a dumb "destroy the Death Star, again" plot.
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Dec 23, 2015 07:11
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teagone posted:I'm like 90% sure Snoke is Plagueis. Bleeeehhhhh What if it's just a big bait-and-switch and Snoke is just some dude that looks nothing like the hologram?
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Dec 23, 2015 07:55
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I don't know to which extent it's considered canon, but reading the novelization of TFA gives some good insight into some of the characters, especially Kylo Ren, who's actual competence is kind of hard to determine watching the movie, and Rey, who seems to get way too strong way too fast. Ren at first displays incredible, unseen before force powers, stopping a blaster shot in mid-air and mind probing anyone with ease, but then gets his rear end handed to him by Rey pretty easily despite being wounded, plus she resists and reverses his mind probe for no satisfying apparent reason. There was this interesting bit in the novel... At first, when he captures Rey in the forest, he sees something in her: Having circled her, he moved even closer, peering into her face, her eyes. Then the red lightsaber he held came up: close to her flesh, close enough to cast a red glow on her skin. "Something". He sounded mystified. "There is something... who are you?" Then later, while interrogating her, he does so with ease at first: As she strained to resist the probe, he pushed into her, brushing aside her awkward attemps to keep him out. But then, he sees something interesting, blocked from him: Ah, he thought to himself. Something there, of interest. Not the image of the map. That would take another moment. But definitely something worth investigating. He shifted his perception toward it, seeking to identify, to analyse, to- The barrier he encountered stopped him cold. And it was he, Kylo Ren, who blinked. It made no sense. He pushed, hard, with his mind- and the probe went nowhere. It's only after he looks into this odd barrier that he encounters any semblance of resistance. It's as if something is locked inside of Rey that she herself might not be aware of. Perhaps it was the force within her that he triggered, or perhaps it was something about her origins and identity, that will be expanded upon later, that could explain why she seems suddenly so strong. Maybe she was trained in the force but does not recall it? Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it. ^^
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Dec 23, 2015 07:57
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computer parts posted:Sure. I don't really like this film but it's mainly because the first half has almost no time to breathe and the second half is dominated by a dumb "destroy the Death Star, again" plot. Yeah. That characters are generally fine, even if the film barely allows them any room to establish themselves or develop. I'm definitely interested to see where things go with Rey and Darth Driver in the next film.
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Dec 23, 2015 08:04
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Lumpy the Cook posted:Snoke is literally Darth Vader, but without Anakin. Isn't drunk-posting still probatable?
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Dec 23, 2015 08:04
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Here's something that's bugging me: what would you say Rey's story in this movie was about? Like, Finn's story is about him overcoming his cowardice and facing his fears, Han's is about facing down very specific demons from his past, Kylo Ren has his super overt internal struggle, etc. I feel like they try and set up an arc for Rey with her fear of abandonment but I don't really see it getting paid off in the events of the movie. (Possibly a consequence of being written as part 1 of a trilogy?)
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Dec 23, 2015 08:05
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Lumpy the Cook posted:
La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo CONFIRMED for Episode VIII.
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Dec 23, 2015 08:13
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Gonz posted:La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo CONFIRMED for Episode VIII. BB-8 feels safe here... in the box...
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Dec 23, 2015 08:20
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Mary674 posted:
The reason is literally stated onscreen. Ren is lacking in confidence and force of will. He is able to exert himself on Poe because Poe has no way to defend himself. When he actually comes up against someone who can he crumbles. He is powerful only when his opponent is defenseless. This is something emphasized throughout the film.
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Dec 23, 2015 08:23
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WrathOfBlade posted:Here's something that's bugging me: what would you say Rey's story in this movie was about? Like, Finn's story is about him overcoming his cowardice and facing his fears, Han's is about facing down very specific demons from his past, Kylo Ren has his super overt internal struggle, etc. I feel like they try and set up an arc for Rey with her fear of abandonment but I don't really see it getting paid off in the events of the movie. (Possibly a consequence of being written as part 1 of a trilogy?) I've only seen the movie once, so I could be talking out of my rear end on some of this though. E: I guess I could have summed all that up Campbell-style as "refusal of the call". Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 08:32
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teagone posted:I'm like 90% sure Snoke is Plagueis. I've been resistant to that theory but that music...I hope he is and they drop the whole Muun thing. Stupid looking skinny headed horse faced alien sucks. If the EU isn't canon but Episode 3 is they can make Plagueis anything they want him to be. Let him be the most ancient, primal dark side user to ever be in the fiction. I like the idea of some evil older than the Sith and so powerful he beat death. Not the political schemer. When I was a kid I was scared of the Emporer in RotJ. I'd like to see a return to form, as much as I loved over the top monster mash from Revenge. I hope Serkis has a ball with it.
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Dec 23, 2015 08:34
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WrathOfBlade posted:Here's something that's bugging me: what would you say Rey's story in this movie was about? Like, Finn's story is about him overcoming his cowardice and facing his fears, Han's is about facing down very specific demons from his past, Kylo Ren has his super overt internal struggle, etc. I feel like they try and set up an arc for Rey with her fear of abandonment but I don't really see it getting paid off in the events of the movie. (Possibly a consequence of being written as part 1 of a trilogy?) Rey's story is entirely about learning to step outside of what is familiar but uncomfortable to her and take on responsibilities and struggles she doesn't feel she's ready for. Her entire basic plot point is "I'm waiting for my family." She is presented as fundimentally childish. Not just in her motivation but in how she acts at first. What is one of the first things we see her doing? Pulling a helmet onto her head like a young kid playing with something she found, while the clearly homemade doll she has and has kept is visible right next to her. She isn't a complete womanchild but she's childish and afraid of moving forward because it means letting go of things she has held onto.
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Dec 23, 2015 08:35
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ImpAtom posted:The reason is literally stated onscreen. Ren is lacking in confidence and force of will. He is able to exert himself on Poe because Poe has no way to defend himself. When he actually comes up against someone who can he crumbles. He is powerful only when his opponent is defenseless. This is something emphasized throughout the film. Yes, he questions Poe effortlessly, partly because he has no defenses force-wise. But I think Poe has a very strong will and his mission means everything to him, so will is not the only thing at play there, as it was easily bypassed. Likewise, at first, Rey's willpower does not mather. He also questions her without resistance even though she tries her hardest. I do agree that his lack of will is stunting his power and that Rey had the stronger will in that scene but that made no change at first.The change in the success of her resistance was very abrupt, which is what leads me to think something "awakened" or was triggered in her in that moment, something that we see triggered as well later on when they fight. Like I said, I think she's not all she realises she is, which is why she seems to grow so strong so quickly. My hypothesis is that she somehow had her memory erased. Here is another interesting tidbit from the novel, from when the lightsaber flies to Rey's hand: It is you, Ren murmured. His words unsettled her. Not for the first time, he seemed to know more about her than she did about herself.
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Dec 23, 2015 08:44
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Zodack posted:Bleeeehhhhh I'm down with this because it means they'll recast him and take work from Andy Serkis, and gently caress that guy.
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Dec 23, 2015 08:50
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Kylo's effortless probe of Poe and his subsequent "defeat" at Rey's hands has two immediately obvious factors at play, and I'm surprised I've seen people use that specific moment as a benchmark for how "Mary Sue-ish" Rey is. For starters, Poe is presumably not Force-sensitive at all. Moreover, he had been rigorously tortured ahead of Kylo's arrival, which Kylo actually comments on (and is actually kinda impressed by). Also? Kylo is not actually trying to brute-force his way into Rey's mind at first, if at all. He deliberately "looks at" other stuff in her head - lonely nights, lack of purpose or whatever I forget the exact conversation - and then tries to get at the map, which fails. What strikes me more is Kylo's entire attitude toward Rey throughout Episode VII; again, assuming that this new trilogy is effectively going to be a re-telling of the original trilogy, we can expect that Episode VIII will at least touch on important Empire cornerstones, like a familial reveal and an overall down note for our heroes. Something about the way that Kylo treats Rey - the weird emphasis he puts on "You" when he calls her a scavenger during the interrogation scene, and how eager he seems to get her on his side/have her become an apprentice like/with him - suggests to me that both times he is defeated by her in a meaningful way, he is not actually trying to win until he realizes he's actually in danger of losing, if that makes sense. Probing her mind, he starts off with his unrelated trip down Rey Memory Lane; during the lightsaber duel, he is obviously not trying to kill her at first, or else why would he give her the speech about training or whatever? Those scenes make more sense to me if you operate under the assumption that Kylo knows who Rey is already. Given that we don't know the disparity (if any) in their ages, nor enough about the timeline - when Kylo ruined Luke's Professor Jedi aspirations versus when Rey was left on Jakku - it seems pretty plausible, if not likely, that Rey was already given some kind of training before the wholesale slaughter of newbie Jedis necessitated her hiding out on a desert world. EDIT: The implication being that Rey was hidden from Kylo deliberately, I guess, that last bit of conjecture seemed to just kinda trail off there it's like 3AM here man guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 09:07
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Saw the movie tonight. Was good! Wasn't expecting that, honestly, even though it was absolutely slathered in modern day movie traps, like whenever somebody says something evil or dramatic they do it with the lowest growl they can muster which just sounds so bad but every blockbuster made today does it, or directors who often don't really "get" how to take advantage of 3D's added depth in scenes so it's still a pointless gimmick, or how to pan a camera during busy scenes so poo poo isn't so blurry you can't see anything, or have no idea how to combine comedy/drama/action so any given scene will only have one "tone" to it. This movie has all of that baggage and it's still good. Honestly shocked. JJ Abrams finally made a good movie. Series order V > VI > VII > IV > I > III > II (not finalized)
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Dec 23, 2015 09:27
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Dec 23, 2015 09:32
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Beeez posted:
I wouldn't really sweat it. Most people liked/loved this movie. As for the spoilers, I wouldn't say anything in the plot is all that surprising anyway once you're in the movie. Nothing you can't see coming, unless you're the Rebels I guess. lol I strongly disliked it and I am way, way in the minority. I actually feel really fuckin' bad that I didn't like it since everyone else is so in love with it. I wish I loved it too. I had a minor existential crisis wondering if I just am too depressed or I hate fun and joy or something. (Turns out, I'm not and I don't.) But seriously, go & have fun. You most likely will. 4/5 people in my group liked it. And whoa, this thread blew up harder than the Death Star(s) since I last looked a day ago.
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Dec 23, 2015 09:38
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team overhead smash posted:The issue isn't that he's flawed, but that he fails so much and so often that it goes too far so to me he comes across as completely unthreatening. Welcome, my friend, to the point of the film. Kylo is a Star Wars fanboy, and the best character.
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Dec 23, 2015 09:48
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My take on Kylo Ren is that he was really weak as a Jedi, so he turned to the dark side for an easy power boost. Unfortunately, nothing he does will make him as strong as Vader, and he knows it. So he dresses up in black, hides behind a helmet, kills some people and lashes out violently at inanimate objects, playing the role and hoping no one will notice he's in over his head.
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Dec 23, 2015 10:16
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Beeez posted:He only cries when he kills the Separatist leaders, actually, which I found to be a weird choice and I think Lucas should have put that scene after the youngling one and green-screened in the Jedi Temple background instead of the Mustafar background. That was an extremely deliberate choice on the part of the director: The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith posted:"Anakin's just gone and killed his family, more or less, so I've done a deed that I thought would've weighed on me," Christensen would say the following day(about the scene where he meets Padmé on Mustafar). "But George sees it as an outburst of almost accidental anger that Anakin then has to suffer the repercussions of for the rest of his life. Anakin thinks he's done the right thing in killing all the Jedi, so George wanted me to come to the scene with enthusiasm. Things are good. I'm the most powerful man in the universe and I'm going to be able to save Padmé." People complain about it all the time, but would it really have made sense the other way around? If Anakin was still in a state of mind where he was likely to break down crying immediately after completing the task, then he never would have been able to go through with it in the first place. The reason Anakin cries after slaughtering the Separatists is because it's the first time he's actually had a chance to just stop and reflect. He's completed the mission Palpatine set for him. There's nothing else for him to do now except think about what he's done, and his conscience is screaming at him that what he's done is evil and wrong. But at the same time, he knows he's gone too far to ever be able to turn back. This is where Anakin's mind really breaks. It's where he has no choice but to become completely unhinged from reality, as a defense mechanism to ward off the judgment of his own conscience. That's why he comes off as so delusional in his later interactions with Padme and Obi-Wan on Mustafar. Because what else is he supposed to do? Face reality? The reality is that he slaughtered a bunch of innocent children for no other reason than because he was selfish. No, now Anakin genuinely believes that he did it all in service of bringing peace, security, and justice to his new Empire. And so, when Padme rejects this rationale, Anakin gets very frustrated. So frustrated that he then tries to choke the life out of his pregnant wife, whose safety and well-being started out as the primary motivator for all his actions, but which have now become secondary to his megalomaniacal lust for power and control.
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Dec 23, 2015 10:26
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Bongo Bill posted:Yeah it's gonna be cool when Episode VIII is about how hosed up Episode VII was the way Episode II was about how hosed up Episode I was and Episode V was about how hosed up Episode IV was and the second trilogy was about how hosed up the first trilogy was. The flaw is that - unlike in Phantom Menace and even A New Hope - there is not one iota of satire in this film. There's no 'Chewie doesn't get a medal', and there's certainly nothing like Quigon refusing to help the slaves. In fact, R2 D2 rises to give his approval of the events - obviously preprogrammed to reveal Luke's location only when the Resistance passes a certain threshold of 'worthiness'. (But why didn't R2 wake up earlier?) The only hint of a twist is in this idea of being 'seduced by the light' - which is, of course, entirely accurate. Leia is trying to seduce her son towards weird feudalism. Everything the baddies say is true, but they are presented as Dumb And So Goddamn Crazy in order to deceive you. It's totally unconvincing. On top of this, "supreme leader" is the term for the head of state of Iran. What the gently caress is going on? The First Order don't appear to be fascists. The predominant image is of a gigantic hand. That's why the beam splits up into five smaller beams: the fingers of a gigantic hand. The composition is identical to when Kylo interrogates Rey, with her human face menaced by his hand. So the imagery of mass death is deceptive, since the First Order simply stand for centralization . Force Awakens features almost no trace of Star Wars' traditional class consciousness. Besides Jakoo, we are given no idea of where people are getting their money from. There's no racism or sexism in this world. Nobody has a job. Remember how, on the Death Star, wookies were imprisoned, and that's how we knew the bad guys were bad? Maxwell Lord posted:SMG, how do you square Rey being on the Dark Side with her clear respect for droid personhood? The same way I square it with Anakin and Luke. All of them are powerful, and stupid . (Rey being friends with BB8 doesn't need spoilering; it's a basic premise of the film.) Wank posted:I thought this was really weird but don't quite get the connotation. It's not an accident. The democratic Republic really did betray its ideals by supporting this monarchist splinter group. Twiglet posted:I wouldn't really sweat it. Most people liked/loved this movie. As for the spoilers, I wouldn't say anything in the plot is all that surprising anyway once you're in the movie. Nothing you can't see coming, unless you're the Rebels I guess. lol It's really badly edited, and JJ Abrams' worst film in other respects.
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Dec 23, 2015 11:02
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I was going to edit my post from before, but I'm going to keep this separate. So given that I didn't like the movie... I did not know it was going to be a “soft reboot.” I'd characterize it more as a hard copy-paste. It was like a long, wandering to-do list of things we already did before and I was bored and wanted to leave about 2/3 of the way through, which doesn't happen to me often during movies. What was the point of rebooting the franchise? I mean that as a sincere question. Parents regularly show these movies to their children. My parents don't give a poo poo about or know anything about movies and yet my mother bought the OT on VHS so my dad could have me (and then my brother, later) watch them with him. My parents have never purchased a movie before or after that to have me watch with them. My brother's generation grew up with the prequels, even if they weren't anywhere near the quality of the originals. If they liked the prequels (and yeah, children overwhelmingly fuckin' did), they sure as poo poo watched the OT too. So if basically everyone watching has seen it, why make A New Hope 2.0 instead of something, anything more original? Anyway, moving on, some posters were wondering if a certain thing or another, like the mention of Clone troopers, was a dig at Lucas. The definitive answer is no. I went to an event where Abrams was the headliner and he sperged for 2 hours. I wrote it up for a friend who couldn't make it, but it's long and not all to do with Star Wars, so I don't think it belongs here in Star Wars chat. I don't know where to post it actually or if anyone would actually care about the rest, but I'll just give you that highlight. Stephen Colbert was the interviewer. quote:Okay, the real 'lol wtf' moment was during the Q&A. There was an auction beforehand and some guy paid hundreds or thousands of dollars to come up on stage, shake their hands, and ask Colbert and Abrams a question. So he asks, “What's the biggest mistake the Jedi make?” Colbert perks up immediately--he has his answer. And Abrams? He goes off on a spiel about how he can't trash talk the movies and he respects George Lucas, and you can't ask him to insult anyone/thing/the franchise he just worked on. It was baffling. Colbert, realizing Abrams has severely misinterpreted the question, whispers his own answer to Abrams. Abrams refuses to use that answer and Colbert tries to rephrase the question in a way that Abrams can handle. It doesn't work. Colbert gives the guy his answer: “Training Anakin.” Abrams tells the poor (literally now poorer) guy to ask something else. There was nothing offensive about the question, but with how Abrams responded, you would've thought the question was, “George Lucas: Hitler or Literally Hitler?” Oh and someone also mentioned the lack of lens flare a while back too, I believe. Yeah, I have the answer to "Where did they go?" too. quote:Colbert mentioned that some sperg on the internet said there were 725 lens flares in one or both of the [Trek] movies (I forget/don't care). Abrams responded that he and one of his cameramen thought lens flare are the poo poo and they really dug filming them. They made it like a competition to film the most artistic lens flares possible. Abrams came home with some footage of Into Darkness to show his wife. He was pretty excited/proud of the shot. It was of a character talking while a gigantic lens flare obscured them completely. He wife basically called it a piece of poo poo because she couldn't even tell which character it was and after that he decided it was time to end that poo poo. So you can thank his wife for the lack of stupid amounts lens flare in Star Wars and hopefully all his future projects. Lens flares are his model trains. lol SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's really badly edited, and JJ Abrams' worst film in other respects. I was about to hit submit and just saw your reply! I know nothing about film editing or even Abrams' other movies, aside from Super 8, which I actually did see and can tell you in general terms about why it isn't good. I'm interested in hearing what you have to say on both points if you feel like expounding on either of them. Although I must go sleep now.
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Dec 23, 2015 11:26
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quote:On top of this, "supreme leader" is the term for the head of state of Iran. What the gently caress is going on? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_leader posted:In politics, a supreme leader usually has a cult of personality associated with them, such as Adolf Hitler (Führer) in Germany; Benito Mussolini (Duce) in Italy; Joseph Stalin (Vozhd) in the Soviet Union; and the Supreme Leader of Iran or Supreme Leader of North Korea. quote:The President of the United States is sometimes referred to colloquially as "Leader of the Free World". Note that this was never adopted as an official title. 
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Dec 23, 2015 11:44
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I swear, like 70% of Finn's lines in the script were prefaced with "(THE CHARACTER SCREAMS AT THE TOP OF HIS LUNGS)".
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Dec 23, 2015 12:28
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Twiglet posted:What was the point of rebooting the franchise? I mean that as a sincere question. Parents regularly show these movies to their children. My parents don't give a poo poo about or know anything about movies and yet my mother bought the OT on VHS so my dad could have me (and then my brother, later) watch them with him. My parents have never purchased a movie before or after that to have me watch with them. My brother's generation grew up with the prequels, even if they weren't anywhere near the quality of the originals. If they liked the prequels (and yeah, children overwhelmingly fuckin' did), they sure as poo poo watched the OT too. So if basically everyone watching has seen it, why make A New Hope 2.0 instead of something, anything more original? Considering that if you're not asking rhetorically you're basically just asking for conjecture, I'll conjecturalize! Episode VII is a brick-laying film in the same sense that the first Captain America movie was - it's effectively a really long trailer for ensuing content. (TFA and the Disney Star Wars model feels like it owes a lot to the Marvel system already, but that's maybe not relevant.) The purpose of this trilogy from a metafictional standpoint is to create new, sustainable Star Wars content... which means that the old guard have to all die or ride off into the sunset, unless Mark Hamill wants to be appearing as Luke Skywalker into his seventies/eighties. The prequel trilogy is not traditionally "sustainable" Star Wars content, since it received so poor a reaction from the die hards or whatever. Therefore, "let's make a movie that attacks the nostalgia centers of the brain so that we can tickle their hearts as we ruthlessly dispose of their beloved childhood characters" seems more reasonable. Given the type of fanbase that Star Wars has, both in terms of passion and for lack of a better term spergi...ness, it makes sense that they would make the movie this way; sure, we lose Harrison Ford, but it's ~thematically tied to the loss of the old mentor character~ and blah blah. I'm not saying it's not cynical, but I think the actual Why? of it is pretty blatant. My hope is that Episode VII was such a re-tread because we're going to see the next two movies take radical and severe departures from the Empire and Jedi standard-bearers. if VII buttered us up into thinking we know what will happen in the next two movies, I'd like to see some subversive poo poo go down, and then logically followed to its extreme. Let's have Kylo redeemed without dying. Let's have Rey have that same choice Luke had with the Dark Side and decide, gently caress it, I want power. Whatever. I mean, they're popcorn movies designed to manufacture themselves into oblivion and sell toys and video games, but that doesn't mean they can't also be occasionally weird.
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Dec 23, 2015 12:43
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teagone posted:I edited in some other bits in my original post, but he single-handedly destroyed any chance of Luke establishing a new Jedi Order (at least not until Rey's awakening), sending him into seclusion. You're using the humanizing elements of his character as the basis of your argument, but that's the thing... Kylo Ren is a gently caress up, wannabe Sith/Vader poser who is mentally unstable. The guy is a basket case; he's loving nuts with a really bad temper, but he also aggressively wields the Force with great power. That's scary. I mean, he killed his own father to cement his path to the dark side, and earlier he killed Lor San Tekka (Von Sydow's character) without any hesitation, someone he presumably had a history with. You're also heavily discrediting Finn and Rey's abilities here. Both of them had proven themselves as competent fighters throughout the film. You're not reading what I'm writing. As I specifically laid out and explained to you in my last post, I have no issues with a character being humanised and being able to empathise with them. The issue is his incompetence which is separate. You can have have a character who is humanised while still being a threat despite ultimately losing because the good guys are obviously going to win in the end but they don't do that here. My issue is that he's a real gently caress-up. And you can have gently caress-ups who constantly fail at everything and they can be real deep and interesting characters. However you can't expect them to be a realistic threat and the movie does expect us to still treat him as that. I mean you're really scrapping the bottom of the battle here. You're having to point to things that don't actually take place in the movie or its timeframe with the killing of Luke's students and even then you mischaracterise it (he didn't do it singlehandedly, we see in the flashback him with a group of other dudes backing him up at the Jedi Lightsaber Massacre). Not only that but you again fall back on the response of "but look how aggressive and angry he is" and fail to answer my question of "Okay, but what does he actually accomplish with his anger in the movie besides slashing some poor innocent computer monitors and an old unarmed man who wasn't posing a threat?"
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Dec 23, 2015 12:59
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Aside from lightsaber combat, Kylo Ren doesn't seem any less capable than Vader was in the OT (and I think Vader is overrated as a villain). Remember, Vader was not able to recover the Death Star plans nor force Leia to reveal the location of the hidden Rebel base nor did he prevent Luke from blowing up the Death Star.
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Dec 23, 2015 13:44
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The main difference between Kylo Ren in The Force Awakens and Darth Vader in A New Hope is actually a series of small differences that add up to a larger perception thing. Vader brooks no bullshit when the suits talk back to him; he chokes out one of his own dudes in pretty much just a brazen show of Force. Kylo Ren gets kinda upstaged by one of the suits in front of his boss. Vader murders known badass ("General" Kenobi who fought in the Clone Wars, which if you pretend like Ep. II never happened at least sounds terrifying) and space wizard Obi-Wan by beating him in single combat, when to that point of the movie Obi-Wan had been basically just lifehacking his way through the narrative. Kylo Ren kills his dad who is not making any attempt to fight back at all. Vader doesn't flip out and destroy parts of the Death Star when Leia escapes. Kylo can't stop destroying parts of whatever is nearby when droids escape/Rey escapes. It adds up to Vader at least being perceived as competent, especially because he reads as more in control than Kylo Ren does - even if Vader's main accomplishments in ANH are "loses the plans to the Death Star, fails to get the droids, kills Obi-Wan but lets Leia escape, and then fails to stop the Death Star from getting wrecked," which is pretty disastrous when you think about it.
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Dec 23, 2015 13:54
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guts and bolts posted:For starters, Poe is presumably not Force-sensitive at all. Man you guys have weird ideas. Have you seen stars wars? The force is in Rey's potted plant. More to the point did you see his flying? It looked like a Jedi slicing up those poor battle droids.
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Dec 23, 2015 13:59
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Kurzon posted:Aside from lightsaber combat, Kylo Ren doesn't seem any less capable than Vader was in the OT (and I think Vader is overrated as a villain). Remember, Vader was not able to recover the Death Star plans nor force Leia to reveal the location of the hidden Rebel base nor did he prevent Luke from blowing up the Death Star. The difference is firstly, Vader actually accomplishes stuff like killing Obi-Wan and if the other main characters had tried to take him on in a fight then they'd obviously have gotten wrecked (as we later saw in ESB). Even when Han comes out of nowhere with his shot in the Falcoln at the end, he's saving Luke's life because without it Vader was about to smoke Luke and that's after Vader's swooped in and taken out the Y-wings which were meant to destroy the Death Star. In a Star Wars movie the villains will ultimately lose in the end but that doesn't mean they can't be competent and scary up until they need to lose. The failure to capture the droids also doesn't really impact Vader because he's not personally chasing after them on several different planets. After the opening scene where he gets Leia, finding the droids is handed off to stormtroopers while Darth Vader is busy on the Death Star and dealing with the Moffs. If he were personally running around Tatooinne trying to find them and failing like Ren does, yeah, it'd reflect poorly. Hell even when he loses a prisoner it's because he's busy killing one of the last Jedi Masters alive and all the protagonists work together to free her, not just because he didn't secure the prisoner properly while he went to make a space phonecall to the BFG.
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Dec 23, 2015 14:02
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The difference is that Darth Vader in ANH is essentially a Bond villain, he has a cool outfit and he's ruthless with his henchmen. He's a paper thin character who is there to look cool and act mean. Kylo Ren is an actual character with strengths and flaws, and all of his successes and failures are rooted in his character.
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Dec 23, 2015 14:04
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punchymcpunch posted:The difference is that Darth Vader in ANH is essentially a Bond villain, he has a cool outfit and he's ruthless with his henchmen. He's a paper thin character who is there to look cool and act mean. Which successes?
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Dec 23, 2015 14:08
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Seeing it a week after release and all the negative nancies on the internet really tempered my expectations, but nah that was a drat great movie. Loved it. Finn and Rey are easily up there with the best characters and performances of the whole series, and I was a bit worried about Kylo Ren but he was way more interesting and weighty than I expected. Disney I hereby give you permission to pump these films/spin offs/toys/theme park rides as much as you want.
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Dec 23, 2015 14:22
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