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Dr. Fishopolis posted:If that's true, why did Anakin hesitate before chopping up Dooku? Because A) he is a follower, and B) the Jedi have given him every reason to believe they're a corrupt institution that must be destroyed. Like, what made the Bolshevik revolutionaries execute the Tsar's children? They were just kids, but hey, if you let them live, they might grow up to lead a counterrevolution and try to claim their "birthright". And those kids didn't have weapons training. (Well maybe some of them did. Aristocrats and all.) Seriously, the Jedi have child soldiers. Once you see them as an enemy, well, certain things have to be done.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:26
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:edit: moreover, the only thing that infers any of this motivation is the fact that Sidious is literally just expositing this poo poo with dialogue. How does Anakin go from "I have doubts about the Jedi" to "this dude just told me to literally slaughter every single one of them including babies so I guess I'm doing that now" in the span of thirty seconds? Because he was already a seething cauldron of fear and rage. He's already a mass murderer. He just killed the head of the Jedi Order and is stunned by the magnitude of what he's done. He single-handedly started a new civil war. The Jedi just tried to murder the Chancellor, and Anakin sided with the Chancellor. Are they going to come after him? Maybe. Are they going to come after Palpatine again? Definitely. He just killed the head of the Order to save Palpatine, and more will come unless they strike first -- where do you stop? He went to the office to protect Palpatine by the way. That was why he insisted on coming with the Jedi masters, to make sure they brought Palpatine back alive. Mace Windu and the Jedi stepped directly into Anakin's nightmares about his mother and his wife and Anakin snaps and goes on a rampage. Again. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 02:29
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Maxwell Lord posted:Because A) he is a follower, and B) the Jedi have given him every reason to believe they're a corrupt institution that must be destroyed. The Bolsheviks rose up against the Tsars because they believed they were systematically oppressed. The fighters who overthrew the Tsar spent their entire lives in poverty, watching the aristocracy usurp their labor while the proletariat starved. They had reasonable motivation to effect drastic change at great moral cost. Anakin spent his entire life in the Jedi order. Everyone he was close to was either a Jedi or sympathetic to them. And then, in the span of an hour or so, he decides that the society that he has been a willing part of his entire conscious life is so evil that he has to literally slaughter children to stop it. Because he had a dream that his girlfriend was going to die, and his creepy uncle figure said he could help. How can you expect anyone to buy that?
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Dec 23, 2015 02:34
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:How can you expect anyone to buy that? He was a moody off-kilter ticking time bomb at least since the second one (I never saw that a second time to confirm more). But I did rewatch Revenge of the Sith the other day (which I like) and for me it works. It's a weird and dark movie, very unique flick, but I have no complaints about it. Well ok the "Nooo" and the way they explain the death at the end there is cheese, but the story itself works well for me. So just saying, somebody buys it. Palpatine is Dracula-esque, the way he's seducing/luring in Anakin throughout the whole movie, really fun stuff to me. Even before the reveal that he has knowledge of powers that could save his wife. I've noticed in a lot of media, people always want a really specific and to me unneeded explanation for why a character is evil. So Anakin was a jedi, fit in as a potential good person. Doesn't mean he just became bad in a minute like the way you look at it, he was a conflicted messed up person for years. And he had a very bad influence, a very entertaining bad influence I might add, hot drat Palpatine is the man. Speaking of entertaining, I just saw Episode VII for the second time, it's still got it! So drat good, easily one of my favs. (And by that I mean it's probably #4, hey I really love Return of the Jedi)
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Dec 23, 2015 02:43
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Anakin's mother died because she was kept on a backwater world whose practice of slavery was implicitly tolerated by the Jedi. The Jedi fight to serve the interests of a Republic that doesn't work and he believes this by Ep. II. They keep him down, they don't solve the real problems of the Galaxy, they don't let him be with the woman he loves. He has no reason to be on their side. And like I said he's a follower. He's desperate to pledge allegiance to anyone and the Emperor says he'll save the woman he loves. All you have to do is destroy this diseased corrupt order with no respect for the Republic. He is not a strong man.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:43
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He had a dream that his mother would die, and he held her in his arms after she was tortured to death. He spent his life in the Order. It made him angry and insecure. They took him away from his mother and put a sword in his hand. How old do you think he was he killed someone the first time? 17? Younger? How many good relationships does he have within the order? One? Maybe? Obi-Wan wants him to be patient, but maybe he's just jealous of Anakin's power. They make him go to counseling sessions in between the battles he wins for them. He knows he doesn't live up to their standards. They refused to promote him. They don't trust him; they think he's a spy for the Chancellor. The Jedi are a pretty hosed up surrogate family.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:44
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Arglebargle III posted:He had a dream that his mother would die, and he held her in his arms after she was tortured to death. On the other hand, the best way to prevent your wife from dying may not involve cutting your way through a Jedi kindergarten with your lightsaber. You could maybe use the force or a space doctor or something.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:46
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Even then, he realizes pretty quick that siding with the Dark Lord of the Sith is a mistake. But it's a mistake he can't take back. He's committed to it. He realizes the only way out is to overthrow him, and he entertains fantasies of doing that right up until he's hooked up to a machine that makes it so that the Emperor can control what he sees and kill him instantly despite all his power.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:47
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FallenGod posted:On the other hand, the best way to prevent your wife from dying may not involve cutting your way through a Jedi kindergarten with your lightsaber. If a plucky do-gooder well adjusted person went about that, sure it would seem odd. Darth Vader doing it? Doesn't seem so odd to me. He was at war, Star Wars even. Star Wars is hell soldier.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:47
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MrMojok posted:Do tell! First things first: the narrative structure of the Star Wars film series is ever-shifting. As each film is introduced, the meaning changes. Three extremely different films were grouped together and are now understood as 'The OT', the story of how Luke Skywalker killed the evil robot Darth Vader and saved his father - Anakin. This killing of the robot ultimately represented the triumph of liberal democracy over the various failed utopian projects of the past. In general, the OT can be summarized as naïvely optimistic. Subsequently, three films were introduced that called out the OT for its naïveté. The human Anakin, it reveals, was a fascist stooge. The bad robot monster that everyone had rejected was none other than Christ Himself. We were fooled: liberal democracy was the enemy. It was all a sham. We killed Him for plastic toys, and His blood is on our hands. With the addition of these three films, the context of the originals had changed. The entire six-film series became the tale of Darth Vader's crucifixion. It can be summarized as brutally honest. And now we have a seventh film. The Force Awakens is a story of willful ignorance and self-deceit. Who are the Republic? Who are the Resistance? Who are the First Order? People are confused because they are not reading the imagery. The basic story is simple: it is the story of a USB key that travels across the galaxy and gradually morphs into a laser sword. Max Van Sydow is the personification of this object; it respresents his legacy. And he explains exactly what he stands for: "only the Jedi can bring balance to the force." He supports Leia's Resistance because 'she's royalty to him.' The Resistance heroes are all working to bring back feudalism, and the New Order is working to prevent that. If you've read the previous thread and seen the previous films, you know that nobody ever mentions a 'light side', because there isnt one. The entire Force - the entire universe - is darkness, and to believe otherwise is to have your vision clouded. The light side exists only as the holy spirit - the community of believers in Christ/Vader. Vader was the incarnation of the Force and, when he died, the Force died with him. Force Awakens, on the other hand, is constantly talking about the light side, and visualizing it as literal light: the ships all have massive headlights attached, the recurring image is of a dark ball of tentacles being obliterated by a burst of light (e.g. When that thing is attached to the windshield). The light cleanses, and the light purifies. this is what Van Sydow means by 'balance'. But this literal light is not the Holy Spirit. It's the dark side, rebranded. It's sheer, burning power. Audiences cheer when Rey displays her insane power. Her mutant powers, aka 'force sensitivity', aka midichlorians - make her stronger than anyone else. Her mind-tricks are not subtle manipulations, but a direct reprogramming of the enemy's mind. She wins by being darker than Kylo. So: why would a family abandon their child in a junkyard? The simplest answer is that they're terrified of her. Basically, JJ Abrams has tricked you into worshiping the dark side. Maz runs a temple devoted to herself, and nobody is suspicious? Whoops!
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Dec 23, 2015 02:47
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FallenGod posted:On the other hand, the best way to prevent your wife from dying may not involve cutting your way through a Jedi kindergarten with your lightsaber. Nobody is arguing that Anakin is particularly wise.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:48
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Basically, JJ Abrams has tricked you into worshiping the dark side. Maz runs a temple devoted to herself, and nobody is suspicious? Whoops! Yeah it's gonna be cool when Episode VIII is about how hosed up Episode VII was the way Episode II was about how hosed up Episode I was and Episode V was about how hosed up Episode IV was and the second trilogy was about how hosed up the first trilogy was.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:50
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Except Palpatine was like "I could help you save your wife, in fact I could help you save everybody!" and then Mace Windu was like "I am going to kill Palpatine now" and so he killed that guy who was going to kill the wife-saver and Palpatine was all "thanks for saving me now the Jedi are going to start a new civil war unless we wipe them out so hop to it." Once you've accepted the premise that only Palpatine can show you the power to quiet your fears and save everybody, the rest just flows from the certainty that the Jedi will never rest until Palpatine is dead.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:52
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In RotS Padme says "This war represents a failure to listen." The same is true of the events of the movie. The Jedi don't listen to Anakin's pain, he doesn't listen to the wisdom that all things must pass, nobody was listening when Palpatine basically made himself so politically powerful that calling himself "Emperor" is just a formality. Nobody is paying attention and that's how it all falls apart.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:57
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Well it was more like Palpatine said he once heard of a guy who could maybe prevent death. He then immediately says that he doesn't actually know how to do that, but that the two of them could, like, totally figure it out. If only Anakin kills everyone in that kindergarten over there first. Then Anakin, boy genius, will be able to help Palpatine figure out how to prevent his wife from dying of...whatever she was going to die of?* *it was heartbreak, lmao
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Dec 23, 2015 02:58
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teagone posted:Sounds like you were expecting Kylo Ren to be like a cross between Darth Maul and Darth Vader. The movie subverts any expectation that Kylo Ren is going to be this ultimate badass by humanizing the poo poo out of him. He's flawed and fucks up, he's mentally torn (he even explicitly says this), and is presented in such a way to show that while gifted and strong in the Force, he's not reaching his potential because of this internal struggle he's having of being seduced by the light side. He was both terrifyingly violent and emotionally vulnerable, and I thought that made him an excellent villain. I got that, for instance one thing you haven't mentioned is how in the lightsaber battle he was punching himself in his wound to make himself feel pain and anger, trying to drive away the remorse of having killed his father and focus on the dark side. The thing is, this goes beyond "Oh, I wanted a super powerful villain". The point is that regardless of making him three dimensional and allowing us to empathise with him, he is still the bad guy (until his near-inevitable redemption in Ep 8 or 9) and in that role he needs to be a threat. "Being flawed" and "not being the strongest" is not the same as "being a threat while being the main antagonist in a sci-fi adventure story and filling a roll where you're meant to be threatening". My point is the latter while you seem to think my issue is one of the first two. They're not mutually exclusive either and there's no reason why you can't have a character who's threatening while being a realised character with flaws and weaknesses who can be overcome. In the context of the movie although it wants us to empathise with him, it still clearly wants us to see him as a legitimate threat. He is the main antagonist in the story after all. It even gives us the escalating injuries so that we can go "Well, he's already taken a blaster to the stomach and a wound in the shoulder when he fought Rey, I bet he'd beat her if he was at 100%" just like you're doing here, Snoke's mention of completing his training so we can expect him back bigger and badder, etc. The issue isn't that he's flawed, but that he fails so much and so often that it goes too far so to me he comes across as completely unthreatening.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:59
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Lucas really tried to cram a lot of time into those movies, I would've just started with Anakin as an adult. How to turn Anakin from a good guy to an evil guy without people scoffing at it. In the original trilogy all we knew was that he turned to the dark side, hunted down the jedi (like he does in Ep3), and became a demonstrably evil guy. To me we don't need a reason for a character who we believe is good to be doing evil things. Even if they didn't introduce the Plagueis thing that people are scoffing at in here, he could've done the same evil things. That's just icing on the cake between him becoming loyal to Palpatine, who he was already kind of wavering towards being loyal to over the jedi anyway. Ditto for Kylo, to me there is no "good reason" for why he does what he does. And there's no excuse. A character can do messed up things.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:08
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FallenGod posted:Well it was more like Palpatine said he once heard of a guy who could maybe prevent death. He then immediately says that he doesn't actually know how to do that, but that the two of them could, like, totally figure it out. You're missing the political element though. Anakin just killed the head of the Order. His politics are already authoritarian. He knows the Jedi will never stop coming once they realize what has transpired. Palpatine says they must be wiped out and Anakin, in despair, agrees. He never liked those guys anyway, right? And they tried to kill the one friend who takes him seriously... bastards. It ties back into his emotional issues too. Anakin was shocked to discover Palpatine was a Sith, and ran off to Mace, but then was afraid they wouldn't take him alive, then lashed out when Mace cynically tried to murder his friend, is shocked into despair at what he's done, and he's afraid of what the Jedi will do... Anakin is on a merry-go-round of fear, rage, and despair since Clones really.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:09
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SMG, how do you square Rey being on the Dark Side with her clear respect for droid personhood? It's not just incidental, it's the part of the movie which clearly establishes her as a good guy. BB8 is about to be treated like another piece of junk cargo and she is not having that.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:11
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Wait did he kill the head of his order before going out on a casual theater date with Palpatine? Without either of them being arrested or investigated in any fashion? While surrounded by a city full of Jedi who can tell when other force users die or might just notice that Mace has missed his last dozen meetings? And that his bodyguards are missing? And that a black guy in jedi robes came hurtling out of the chancellor's office and cratered on the pavement below? I'd hope the movie wasn't that poorly written.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:16
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Maxwell Lord posted:SMG, how do you square Rey being on the Dark Side with her clear respect for droid personhood? Part of it is that it's not necessary to conflate "dark side" with "bad guy." The fact that Kylo Ren is apparently trying to commit to the dark side for ethical reasons, rather than the intensely personal ones he may or may not have known impelled his grandfather, is certainly relevant. FallenGod posted:Wait did he kill the head of his order before going out on a casual theater date with Palpatine? No, after.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:17
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FallenGod posted:Wait did he kill the head of his order before going out on a casual theater date with Palpatine? Did you see the movie?
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Dec 23, 2015 03:18
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Arglebargle III posted:Did you see the movie? I was just trying to understand the context of your reply, because I didn't recall him killing Windu and knowing that "the Jedi will never stop coming" before he decides to do the dumbest poo poo ever for no reason at all.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:20
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Bongo Bill posted:Part of it is that it's not necessary to conflate "dark side" with "bad guy." The fact that Kylo Ren is apparently trying to commit to the dark side for ethical reasons, rather than the intensely personal ones he may or may not have known impelled his grandfather, is certainly relevant. Yeah but in this context it seems like SMG is arguing that the heroes are the bad guys because feudalism (though the use of feudal titles has always been sort of a "because 'rescue the princess' sounds cooler than 'rescue the senator'" thing.)
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Dec 23, 2015 03:24
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FallenGod posted:I was just trying to understand the context of your reply, because I didn't recall him killing Windu and knowing that "the Jedi will never stop coming" before he decides to do the dumbest poo poo ever for no reason at all. You sound like a real Jedi fanboy, you're not exactly unbiased in this whole light/dark thing huh. Is doing evil stuff ever not dumb? Hell, isn't war dumb? We don't need no civil star war, like Guns N Roses said. Just curious, say you're writing. What is a good "reason" for Anakin to become evil? Other than vague stuff about anger issues and being tempted to the dark side I guess. My view is that you don't necessarily need a good reason for somebody to do things we would find bad or dumb. Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 03:26
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team overhead smash posted:I got that, for instance one thing you haven't mentioned is how in the lightsaber battle he was punching himself in his wound to make himself feel pain and anger, trying to drive away the remorse of having killed his father and focus on the dark side. Well if the film can't convince you that Kylo Ren, despite all his fucks ups, is a legitimate threat by showing how unabashedly violent he is, or powerful he is when he manipulates the Force like no other Jedi or Sith we've seen before, and having that incredible power while also being completely unpredictable and emotionally unstable, as well as showing that he's strong enough to be able to fend off two attackers while severely injured, with one of the attackers presented as a super Force sensitive being... then I don't know what else to say. In context of the film, Kylo Ren is single handedly responsible for the downfall of the New Jedi Order and sending Luke, arguably the most powerful Jedi, into exile. I feel the film presents Kylo Ren as vicious enough to be an absolute terror to the good guys (and even the bad guys) while also humanizing him in the process. teagone fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 03:30
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Maz runs a temple devoted to herself, and nobody is suspicious? Whoops! I thought this was really weird but don't quite get the connotation. Didn't think of the feudalism angle. Good call. Lucas wants this to be a myth about democracy but he royally hosed up by adding princesses/queens (or he didn't).
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Dec 23, 2015 03:36
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So I watched Ep1 and it's not the complete goddamn shitshow I remember it as, it's just that it has really really really bad CGI and greenscreening stuff going on and also Anakin's acting is not convincing at any moment. And you know, Jar Jar Binks and two fart/poop jokes. On to Ep2 which I remember absolutely nothing about. Also I'm sorry I brought up the prequels in the first place, please return to discussion of Kylo Ren's hair products. 
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Dec 23, 2015 03:38
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Wank posted:I thought this was really weird but don't quite get the connotation. The UN has nations in it that have queens and kings, and we only live on one planet. The Star Wars galaxy would never be able to abolish all royalty and nobility.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:40
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turtlecrunch posted:please return to discussion of Kylo Ren's hair products. Ok: https://twitter.com/KyloR3n/status/679489768066052096 Edit: some spoilers are implied by that link.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:42
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teagone posted:Well if the film can't convince you that Kylo Ren is a legitimate threat by showing how unabashedly violent he is, or powerful he is when he manipulates the Force like no other Jedi or Sith we've seen before, and having that incredible power while also being completely unpredictable and emotionally unstable... then I don't know what else to say. I thought an inherently violent Sith was a good idea, but he didn't follow through. In terms of accomplishments beyond slashing at some computers to show how angry he is and killing an unarmed family member who wasn't trying to hurt him, he accomplished nothing. It's all well and good saying he's powerful and violent, but what did he actually do with that power and violence that is meant to make him seem a threat? He failed to find BB8, then his prisoner escaped, then he failed to find BB8 AGAIN, then he couldn't break his new prisoner, then he lost his prisoner AGAIN, then he killed someone who wasn't trying to fight back while failing to stop the detonation which ruined the star killer, then got shot, then stabbed and then out-duelled by a novice while managing to only take down a single rookie storm-trooper using a weapon Fin had only used once before for about 30 second.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:52
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team overhead smash posted:I thought an inherently violent Sith was a good idea, but he didn't follow through. Well it's not like Vader was super successfull either (at least in ANH).  In any case I think people are missing the point with Ren. Imo he isn't supposed to be the classical villain and I can't be the only one who is pretty sure that we will see him turn to the light side while Rey will take the opposite path (maybe I'm wrong about Rey but I'm 99% sure that there is a redemption arc for Ren and one that goes farther than Vader's did).
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Dec 23, 2015 04:04
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Diabolik900 posted:Ok: https://twitter.com/KyloR3n/status/679489768066052096 I like this twitter.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:05
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team overhead smash posted:I thought an inherently violent Sith was a good idea, but he didn't follow through. He seems competent enough to be at least a threat, I mean c'mon now. Plus ol' Snoke said he has to complete his training. So both Rey and Kylo will be "powering up". How memorable or interesting the character is, that criteria appeals to me more for a good villain. We've seen so many stories with all powerful supervillains who never make mistakes (until the end of the story), I'm not sure why we'd want that every time. Let the villains be sloppy or flawed sometimes, why not.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:06
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LinkesAuge posted:Well it's not like Vader was super successfull either (at least in ANH). I hope he redeems himself by putting more than one guard on duty the next time he has an important prisoner.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:08
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team overhead smash posted:I thought an inherently violent Sith was a good idea, but he didn't follow through. I edited in some other bits in my original post, but he single-handedly destroyed any chance of Luke establishing a new Jedi Order (at least not until Rey's awakening), sending him into seclusion. You're using the humanizing elements of his character as the basis of your argument, but that's the thing... Kylo Ren is a gently caress up, wannabe Sith/Vader poser who is mentally unstable. The guy is a basket case; he's loving nuts with a really bad temper, but he also aggressively wields the Force with great power. That's scary. I mean, he killed his own father to cement his path to the dark side, and earlier he killed Lor San Tekka (Von Sydow's character) without any hesitation, someone he presumably had a history with. You're also heavily discrediting Finn and Rey's abilities here. Both of them had proven themselves as competent fighters throughout the film. For comparison's sake, would you say a mentally unstable individual armed with an assault rifle and hand grenades, who just so happens to have no problem with killing people (even his own kin) and is on a war path, is unthreatening?
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Dec 23, 2015 04:10
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Bigass Moth posted:I hope he redeems himself by putting more than one guard on duty the next time he has an important prisoner. Then we could have a comedy scene doing the jedi mind trick on each guard who comes around one by one. How long can the combo go, I wanna find out. That reminds me, there were a bunch of stormtroopers standing near the guy Obi-Wan did the jedi mind trick on in Star Wars. Maybe more guards wouldn't care here either? Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 04:10
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Not to leave the room even if you come and get him.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:12
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Kylo Ren mindfucks Poe into discovering BB-8 is important in the first place, and kills War Hero Han Solo, and managed to kidnap and discover another force-adept person in the galaxy, and took out the first new Jedi Order to such an extent that new jedi still dont exist I mean, they do a pretty good job making Ren out to be a threat. He's just not omnipotent.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:13
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Heavy Metal posted:Just curious, say you're writing. What is a good "reason" for Anakin to become evil? Other than vague stuff about anger issues and being tempted to the dark side I guess. My view is that you don't necessarily need a good reason for somebody to do things we would find bad or dumb. Here's a spitball outline. Anakin has always blamed the Jedi Order for stealing him away at an early age, condemning his mother to slavery, rape and death alone on Tatooine. As he comes of age, he vows never to let the Jedi recruit another child, and aligns with Palpatine to find and protect force sensitive kids before the Jedi can. He maintains his position in the Jedi council as cover, all the while believing he's working with Palpatine to rescue children and undo the destructive Jedi cult from the inside. Meanwhile, Palpatine is building an army of sith acolytes out of the rescued children. The climax comes when Anakin tries to confide in Obi Wan. Obi Wan alerts the council, forcing a confrontation. Palpatine unleashes his Sith army. The Sith and Jedi fight each other to the last man, wiping out both the acolytes and the Jedi Order. Palpatine orders Anakin to slay the remaning young Sith acolytes, which finally pushes him over the edge to the Dark Side. I literally just pulled that out of my rear end right now, but it makes a shitload more motivational sense to me than the prequels we got.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:13
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