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MisterBibs posted:Nope. Well then what would have been threatening because I dunno beyond that how they could have made him more threatening.
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Dec 23, 2015 19:50
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I think my favorite thing in the film is Ren and Rey both being big goony Star Wars fans, but while Ren can never completely let go of his knockoff Sith helmet and saber, Rey abandons her Original Edition X-Wing Pilot Helmet and Rebel Pilot doll and moves out of the dead horse AT-AT and starts to grow up. She's not quite there yet, but she's on her way. The First Order guys are the weirdos who still cosplay as Imperials and Stormtroopers even after dedicating decades of their lives trying to explain how much the Republic/prequels/Return of the Jedi sucks.
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Dec 23, 2015 19:56
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Hollismason posted:Well then what would have been threatening because I dunno beyond that how they could have made him more threatening. MisterBibs is some kind of sociopath who would not feel threatened unless someone was actively punching him in the face. I already spent way too many posts trying to communicate the fact that Kylo can be both pitiable and threatening all at once, to no avail.
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Dec 23, 2015 19:56
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Ferrinus posted:What makes you say so? It felt really rushed to me, but I put that down to the inclusion of the death star 3.0 plot in general andI thought the early pacing, editing, etc. were good or at least okay to the point that it didn't occur to me to notice them. Two points that stuck out for me were i) Poe's reintroduction, with him helping Finn on the ground (and Finn shouting his praises for him); this would have had more of an impact if he were revealed to both Finn and the audience at the same time (for me, at least) ii) Captain Phasma getting dumped without any fanfare halfway through, if only to shove in a verbal reference to a scene from ANH, and as a reference to Boba Fett aka mystery cool guy who gets dunked on before getting to do anything
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Dec 23, 2015 19:56
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The reason Han's death scene actually works is that it plays on the ambiguity between the fake, seductive light and the authentic light. Is Han genuinely trying to help his son, or just pacify him? Only problem here is Han is not given a third option. The movie makes it very clear that Snoke wants Kylo/Ben to kill his father to prove that Kylo has what it takes to be a big bad sith guy. Kylo never makes an offer to Han to have Han join the cause of the first order or to reject the resistance, Kylo just kills him. Han, prior to getting stabbed is clearly trying to do both. Help his son and pacify him so, you know, billions of people on other planets don't get killed like the poor suckers of the Hosnian system. You can look at this from another perspective. The resistance isn't by default, good. They're warriors in a proxy war violating a peace treaty (for good reason). There's definitely a sense of thought in this new movie in which the cycle of violence continues simply because no one wants to go down the middle path and throw away their arms. Seems like Luke's achievement in the throne room of ROTJ was localized only to him and not to the rest of the galaxy. G-III fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 19:59
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDMH4dYp6Lg
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Dec 23, 2015 20:09
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Surlaw posted:I think my favorite thing in the film is Ren and Rey both being big goony Star Wars fans, but while Ren can never completely let go of his knockoff Sith helmet and saber, Rey abandons her Original Edition X-Wing Pilot Helmet and Rebel Pilot doll and moves out of the dead horse AT-AT and starts to grow up. She's not quite there yet, but she's on her way. This is why I think I'll come to love this movie, because it's a Star Wars movie that's about our relationship with Star Wars. It's about fandom and nostalgia and disillusionment and rediscovering what brought you joy as a kid. Given that, Abrams' choice to follow closely the plot of A New Hope makes sense. It's about Star Wars fans getting to live their Star Wars dreams, and what that means to them, to their heroes, and to the franchise.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:13
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:I don't agree, but I can see your perspective. Of course he's pathetic compared to Vader. He needs to be for his character to make any sense. But why is it important that he's a threat? This is funny to me, because Kylo Ren is less pathetic than Vader. Vader was a slave who watched his mother die a violent death, murdered his wife and got horribly mangled. Kylo might feel pathetic compared to Vader but Vader was genuinely miserable unlike emo kid Kylo. You're buying into the same image of Vader as this ideal strongman that Kylo apparently does. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 20:15
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Hollismason posted:Well then what would have been threatening because I dunno beyond that how they could have made him more threatening. Have him lead the attack in the beginning, pull the BB8 data from Poe's brain on the planet, remove his hissy fits, remove the scene where he's whining to Valders mask, not be force-clowned by someone untrained, kill someone in ightsaber combat when his opponents are untrained. It'd be a start, at least.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:17
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Phylodox posted:This is why I think I'll come to love this movie, because it's a Star Wars movie that's about our relationship with Star Wars. It's about fandom and nostalgia and disillusionment and rediscovering what brought you joy as a kid. Given that, Abrams' choice to follow closely the plot of A New Hope makes sense. It's about Star Wars fans getting to live their Star Wars dreams, and what that means to them, to their heroes, and to the franchise. Yes, I just hope he doesn't fall into making Star Wars movies that are only about Star Wars. Star Wars has always had broad themes that appeal to a variety of people for a variety of reasons. I was worried about this going in, but the new characters won me over. Fortunately for Abrams Star Wars is already structured for repetition and recapitulation. It's suited to his whole directorial... oooovra.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:18
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MisterBibs posted:Have him lead the attack in the beginning, pull the BB8 data from Poe's brain on the planet, remove his hissy fits, remove the scene where he's whining to Valders mask, not be force-clowned by someone untrained, kill someone in ightsaber combat when his opponents are untrained. So basically take out all the parts that made the character interesting and something more than 'scary masked man'? Yeah ok.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:20
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"Kylo Ren would be a scary character if you removed everything remotely engaging about the character."
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Dec 23, 2015 20:22
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You want Kylo Ren to be the guy that Kylo Ren wants to be, and neither you nor he knows why that's impossible.Surlaw posted:dead horse AT-AT This is good. I like this, because of how good it is.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:24
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Steve2911 posted:So basically take out all the parts that made the character interesting and something more than 'scary masked man'? You could add a scene where he calls Rey from inside her AT-AT.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:25
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Steve2911 posted:So basically take out all the parts that made the character interesting and something more than 'scary masked man'? ImpAtom posted:"Kylo Ren would be a scary character if you removed everything remotely engaging about the character." Things that prevent the movie's core Bad Guy from being anything approaching dangerous are not interesting or engaging.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:26
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Arglebargle III posted:Yes, I just hope he doesn't fall into making Star Wars movies that are only about Star Wars. Star Wars has always had broad themes that appeal to a variety of people for a variety of reasons. I was worried about this going in, but the new characters won me over. Fortunately for Abrams Star Wars is already structured for repetition and recapitulation. It's suited to his whole directorial... oooovra. Well, luckily for you Abrams is done writing/directing Star Wars. The next two movies are going to be written and directed by different people with no doubt different ideas and themes they want to bring to the series.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:27
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MisterBibs posted:Have him lead the attack in the beginning, pull the BB8 data from Poe's brain on the planet, remove his hissy fits, remove the scene where he's whining to Valders mask, not be force-clowned by someone untrained, kill someone in ightsaber combat when his opponents are untrained. You understand though that the beginning of the film is the beginning of Star Wars and if they did that then he would literally just be a clone of Darth Vader. He has to have those characterizations because he has not fully yet embraced the Dark Side. He's not suffered at all and he hasn't fully embraced the Dark Side. On the other hand Vader has fully embraced the Dark Side.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:28
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MisterBibs posted:Things that prevent the movie's core Bad Guy from being anything approaching dangerous are not interesting or engaging. Let's take a moment to remind everyone that MisterBibs does not think a toddler with a loaded gun is dangerous. He would not know a threat until it literally shot him.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:28
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MisterBibs posted:Things that prevent the movie's core Bad Guy from being anything approaching dangerous are not interesting or engaging. You seem to be upset that this movie's villain fails to live up to your mental image of Darth Vader. Perhaps it's because you didn't grow up with it? 
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Dec 23, 2015 20:28
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MisterBibs posted:Things that prevent the movie's core Bad Guy from being anything approaching dangerous are not interesting or engaging. This is stupid. You're stupid.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:28
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Yeah, Empire Strikes back would have been better if it ended with Darth Vader murdering Luke Skywalker.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:30
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Hollismason posted:He has to have those characterizations because he has not fully yet embraced the Dark Side. Then have him be the apprentice to an Actually Threatening Bad Guy who gets offed, whose death pushes him to be that Bad Guy. I want a Sith Lord as my bad guy in Star Wars, not a wishy washy flunky.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:31
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MisterBibs posted:I want a Sith Lord as my bad guy in Star Wars, not a wishy washy flunky. You do not appear to like Star Wars.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:33
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Motto posted:You do not appear to like Star Wars. He might like the prequels. Darth Sidious had a big part in those.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:34
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MisterBibs posted:Then have him be the apprentice to an Actually Threatening Bad Guy who gets offed, whose death pushes him to be that Bad Guy. Didn't you see the giant monster in the chair?
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Dec 23, 2015 20:35
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MisterBibs posted:Then have him be the apprentice to an Actually Threatening Bad Guy who gets offed, whose death pushes him to be that Bad Guy. It's almost like you have a singular lack of imagination
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Dec 23, 2015 20:36
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I don't know if you saw Episode 6 but the Sith are dead and gone. (Obi wan voice): I'm so sorry.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:36
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ImpAtom posted:Vader is absolutely portrayed as his lacky. When Vader chokes a guy he releases him when Tarkin demands him do so. He mocks Vader's religion to his face. When Vader wants to let the Falcon go Tarkin only reluctantly allows him to do it and warns him he's taking a risk. Tarkin is always portrayed as the leader in the situation. It's a relationship intentionally mirrored by Hux and Ren in the new film. The fact that Vader doesn't strangle Motti to death doesn't indicate that he's a flunky of Tarkin, Tarkin simply says that Vader is the only one left of the Jedi, and him warning Vader he's taking a risk is the same as someone trying to emphasize their neck is on the line if they let a friend borrow their wife's car or something. Tarkin is in command of the Death Star operation so I imagine Vader can't just do whatever he wants in the Death Star with zero consequences, but Tarkin still speaks to Vader more like a friend than a subordinate. If a friend of mine had his radio up really loudly and I said "Turn that down" and he did, does that mean that I am now his superior? And is expressing incredulity that anyone with Jedi training except Vader remains alive "mocking", really?
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Dec 23, 2015 20:36
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Motto posted:You do not appear to like Star Wars. I like Star Wars a whole bunch. All six movies are solid, even the new one. Sans its unthreatening bad guy, of course. E: vvv Yup. The alternative is Kylo Ren, dangerous threat to computer terminals, empty torture racks, and the back of Resistance jackets. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 20:37
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It's not just that you don't find him threatening that's hilarious, it's that your proposed solution is to remove every single character beat and then proclaim that the non-character you've just created is somehow superior to one with even an iota of nuance
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Dec 23, 2015 20:37
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Beeez posted:The fact that Vader doesn't strangle Motti to death doesn't indicate that he's a flunky of Tarkin, Tarkin simply says that Vader is the only one left of the Jedi, and him warning Vader he's taking a risk is the same as someone trying to emphasize their neck is on the line if they let a friend borrow their wife's car or something. Tarkin is in command of the Death Star operation so I imagine Vader can't just do whatever he wants in the Death Star with zero consequences, but Tarkin still speaks to Vader more like a friend than a subordinate. If a friend of mine had his radio up really loudly and I said "Turn that down" and he did, does that mean that I am now his superior? And is expressing incredulity that anyone with Jedi training except Vader remains alive "mocking", really? I corroborate this, because Tarkin actually did address him as "my friend."
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Dec 23, 2015 20:37
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Surlaw posted:I think my favorite thing in the film is Ren and Rey both being big goony Star Wars fans, but while Ren can never completely let go of his knockoff Sith helmet and saber, Rey abandons her Original Edition X-Wing Pilot Helmet and Rebel Pilot doll and moves out of the dead horse AT-AT and starts to grow up. She's not quite there yet, but she's on her way. I don't know about that, by the end she's progressed to stalking celebrities where they've been hiding away from the public eye. She may be regressing. quote:dead horse AT-AT This, however, as someone else mentioned, is good.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:40
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The First Order don't appear to be fascists. The predominant image is of a gigantic hand. That's why the beam splits up into five smaller beams: the fingers of a gigantic hand. The composition is identical to when Kylo interrogates Rey, with her human face menaced by his hand. They have plenty of fascist imagery, and the inspiration for the political situation in the film seems to me to be the Nazi occupation of Poland. The new Republic is failing to protect its worlds from the fascist threat of the First Order in an attempt to avoid starting another war so soon after the last one, just as the League of Nations failed to protect Poland. It echoes the situation in The Phantom Menace as well, so it even ties into what you've said before about Star Wars being cyclical. And just as in Poland, the response is a resistance movement. People are missing this because the movie communicates it badly, but it's important to remember that Star Wars is WW2 in space, and all of those pieces are there. It's possible to subvert those expectations, but I don't think The Force Awakens does. For all the new Republic's efforts in avoiding the war, the First Order still bombs the capital. And if you want to avoid a monarchy, you can do a lot better than restoring the Empire. Star Wars in WW2 in space, but I think Lucas recognized the similarities between the rise of Adolf Hitler and that of Julius Caesar. Both were populists who used the power of their respective senates to consolidate power and corrupt the office of the chancellor/dictator. Julius Caesar was assassinated by senators from the conservative opposition party, who feared that his consolidation of power was an attempt to restore the monarchy, and they were right, because it did. Palpatine escapes his assassination attempt due to his influence over space Brutus. You don't fight the restoration of the monarchy by bringing back the government of space Caesar. That's completely counter-intuitive. I just don't think the historical connections established in the films supports that reading. Plus Leia's rejection of her royal title is emphasized more than her royalty.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:43
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Arglebargle III posted:This is funny to me, because Kylo Ren is less pathetic than Vader. Vader was a slave who watched his mother die a violent death, murdered his wife and got horribly mangled. Kylo might feel pathetic compared to Vader but Vader was genuinely miserable unlike emo kid Kylo. You're buying into the same image of Vader as this ideal strongman that Kylo apparently does. I guess. I don't really accept the prequels as defining Vader's character, at least when it comes to how he's perceived in the OT. He was a stand-in for Ming the Merciless who got a more interesting arc once people responded to his character design so strongly after ANH.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:43
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I like how Mr. Bibs solution is Darth fuckin' Maul because that was such a great character.Beeez posted:The fact that Vader doesn't strangle Motti to death doesn't indicate that he's a flunky of Tarkin, Tarkin simply says that Vader is the only one left of the Jedi, and him warning Vader he's taking a risk is the same as someone trying to emphasize their neck is on the line if they let a friend borrow their wife's car or something. Tarkin is in command of the Death Star operation so I imagine Vader can't just do whatever he wants in the Death Star with zero consequences, but Tarkin still speaks to Vader more like a friend than a subordinate. If a friend of mine had his radio up really loudly and I said "Turn that down" and he did, does that mean that I am now his superior? And is expressing incredulity that anyone with Jedi training except Vader remains alive "mocking", really? Tarkin at no point shows deference to Vader. He, at best, treats him like someone he knows well. Vader on the other hand absolutely defers to Tarkin and has to get his permission to do things. Tarkin is absolutely his superior even if they have an implied long-term relationship. Again, Hux and Ren are pretty much Vader and Tarkin repeated. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 20:47
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ImpAtom posted:I like how Mr. Bibs solution is Darth fuckin' Maul because that was such a great character. Reminder: A lot of people think Dark Maul is a great character, and that the prequels would have been amazing if he'd lived through them.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:49
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I can barely remember anything about Star Trek (2009), and I have a hunch I'll feel the same way about this movie in a few years. The prequel films were at least memorable, especially Episode 1. This is an old post but literally all I remember from Ep 1 was that a pod race happened, a kid flew a star fighter, Jarjar, and even adolescent me was embarrassed to the point of apologizing to my parents for having them get opening weekend tickets. Woopty loving doo. You know what I'll remember from this movie if nothing else? "That was a fun movie!"
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Dec 23, 2015 20:49
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Beside the lack of nuance, having Ren be an all-powerful leader of the dominant force in the galaxy would pretty much entirely negate the OT. The First Order is not the Empire, and the Sith are gone. The things that happened in 4,5, and 6 actually did change the galaxy.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:51
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ThePlague-Daemon posted:I just don't think the historical connections established in the films supports that reading. Plus Leia's rejection of her royal title is emphasized more than her royalty. Three times her rejection of royalty was overlooked by Resistance members - once by Lor San Tekka, twice by C-3PO. The Resistance has more nonhumans in it than ever, but there's still a clear royalist streak among the opposition to the fascists.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:51
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Steve2911 posted:Reminder: A lot of people think Dark Maul is a great character, and that the prequels would have been amazing if he'd lived through them. Nobody thinks Darth Maul is a great character. Every argument for 'the prequels would have been better' would be "hey, maybe Darth Maul would be characterized." Edit: I am certain there are people who think Darth Maul is a great character because of his books or appearance in The Clone Wars TV show but that is kind of entirely different.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:51
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