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There's almost zero chance that they won't explain Rey's sudden acquisition of powers in a way that's no less ridiculous than just about anything else that goes on, so if you're looking for internal consistency, I'm sure it'll get there. As others have mentioned, the problem with it is more about the whole lack of transitional glue in the movie than the content itself. The whole movie is just action followed by action then, immediately, more substantive action. That is, unless we're really objecting to the idea that Rey is maybe more powerful than other characters we've been introduced to, or at least more disciplined. I don't see anything wrong with her just being really strong. The pacing was really bad though.
speng31b fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 23:02
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ImpAtom posted:I really wish someone could explain to me why using the Force to manipulate someone's mind is somehow something that needs to be explained. I'm not at all against reys 'power level' or we as portrayed in the film but the force persuasion thing is the one thing I might point to as an anomaly, using only the films as an existing template. The ability has up to now been an indication of force mastery. Obi wan demonstrates it in anh but its not for two whole movies that luke does it in jabbas palace, and there it is specifically done, along with his costume, to call back to obi in anh and signify that luke is now the poo poo. So it is jarring that Rey can do it naturally but I don't think it's unintentional. Rey is being set up to be the most powerful force user ever - the title even alludes to it. The questions now are how and why
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Dec 23, 2015 23:03
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speng31b posted:As others have mentioned, the problem with it is more about the whole lack of transitional glue in the movie than the content itself. That is, unless we're really objecting to the idea that Rey is maybe more powerful than other characters we've been introduced to, or at least more disciplined. I don't see anything wrong with that being true. The pacing was really bad though.  I didn't like the mind trick scene but really if they spent 30 seconds setting it up properly I'd have zero qualms with it.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:04
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Yvonmukluk posted:I actually like how they are quite clearly laying the ground for Rey & Finn to get together in the next movie or the one after. They clearly had some chemistry, but they only knew each other, what, a few hours? I'm quite happy if they let that relationship develop over the course of the trilogy. I don't see this at all. To me they made their relationship as much like "brother and sister / just good friends" as you possibly could in a hollywood blockbuster (they get to hug without even a hint of more). There is absolutely great chemistry between them but close to zero romantic chemistry. I also think any relationship for Rey would kinda distract from the story, there is a reason why Luke didn't have a love interest and it would be great if we get another major movie trilogy in which our "hero" doesn't need to end up in a relationship. I mean I wouldn't mind it at the very end or as minor part (like Luke's "thing" with Leia) but not if it involves Finn because that would force them to dedicate two major characters and the main story to relationship drama. I'd like to think that it's nowadays possible to have a relation between a man and a woman that is just friendship and doesn't need to be more. It would also fit into the original themes of Star Wars which were family and friends, not family and "love interests". Personally the whole "for love" angle is really played out in modern movies which is why I prefer it if _true_ friendship is used (I mean people like to joke about it but yeah Frodo and Sam were a more interesting "relationship" than 99% of the love stories out there and the prequels didn't really help in that regard).
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Dec 23, 2015 23:05
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Yeah I think the mind trick specifically comes a bit too quickly and sticks out. I don't really have that much of a problem with it but it's admittedly a little on the nose.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:07
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spacetoaster posted:I'm pretty sure the story for the next two movies is already done. Whatever it is. That's not how films screenplays have been done by studios now or ever, and for good artistic reasons not just market ones. The actor who plays Ren could be hit by a bus tomorrow, .weather or poltical conditions might prevent shooting on location requiring rewrites mild or major, ect. poo poo happens. Disney has a good outline and maybe a rough draft that can morph plot details as big as Vader being Luke's father again. Hollismason posted:Let me tell you a little something about MRA Some of this was real, some of this was 4chan trolling that tried to begin with "Star Wars is sexist" and claiming Chewebaca was a racist stereotype. NutritiousSnack fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 23:07
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LinkesAuge posted:I don't see this at all. To me they made their relationship as much like "brother and sister / just good friends" as you possibly could in a hollywood blockbuster (they get to hug without even a hint of more). There is absolutely great chemistry between them but close to zero romantic chemistry. I also think any relationship for Rey would kinda distract from the story, there is a reason why Luke didn't have a love interest and it would be great if we get another major movie trilogy in which our "hero" doesn't need to end up in a relationship. I mean I wouldn't mind it at the very end or as minor part (like Luke's "thing" with Leia) but not if it involves Finn because that would force them to dedicate two major characters and the main story to relationship drama. Not to mention the fact that she'll turn to the dark side if she falls in love. 
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Dec 23, 2015 23:08
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MrAristocrates posted:Yeah I think the mind trick specifically comes a bit too quickly and sticks out. I don't really have that much of a problem with it but it's admittedly a little on the nose. Narratively it was jarring. But I like the theory that she "took" it from Kylo. She instinctively was able to fight back against his will, and learned about his feelings and insecurities. She could have also learned about abilities that he had knowledge of.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:09
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The Walrus posted:The ability has up to now been an indication of force mastery. Not at all. If anything it seems to be a casual trick. Qui-Gon Jinn uses it almost thoughtlessly on Boss Nass and on Watto. This isn't portrayed as him being a master but just as it being something Jedi do. Watto even laughs at him for doing it, treating it like something that he's used to being tried. Then Obi-Wan uses to tell a dude to not do cigarettes anymore. Luke's attempt to use it on Jabba fails utterly because Jabba is strong-willed. This is not the Jedi super-technique. It is not a sign of mastery. Obi-Wan uses it casually on a Stormtrooper but it is presented as a causal part of being a Jedi.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:10
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NutritiousSnack posted:That's not how films screenplays have been done by studios now or ever, and for good artistic reasons not just market ones. The actor who plays Ren could be hit by a bus tomorrow, .weather or poltical conditions might prevent shooting on location requiring rewrites mild or major, ect. poo poo happens. Disney has a good outline and maybe a rough draft that can morph plot details as big as Vader being Luke's father again. I really doubt that it would allow for such huge changes. Let's not forget, they have 3 different directors and need to make sure that none of those screw the other one so the major plot points should be set in stone by this point (and that certainly includes any big reveal/twist). There will certainly be some minor wiggle room like with Poe but I'd be VERY surprised if they didn't already know where at least Rey, Ren, Luke and Snoke end up in the story.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:11
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speng31b posted:Narratively it was jarring. But I like the theory that she "took" it from Kylo. She instinctively was able to fight back against his will, and learned about his feelings and insecurities. She could have also learned about abilities that he had knowledge of. That's pretty much how I'm able to accept it, yeah.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:11
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As far as I can tell, Luke never tries to use it in ESB, nor does he have to. There's literally no reason in Star Wars lore (meaning the OT) that Rey can't use any and all force related powers from the day she's born (or is good at being a monk and poo poo).
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Dec 23, 2015 23:12
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All I wanna know is why Leia didn't hug that wookie. Cold as gently caress.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:13
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anatomi posted:All I wanna know is why Leia didn't hug that wookie. Cold as gently caress. thats honestly my biggest complaint in the movie
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Dec 23, 2015 23:13
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She blames the wookie for ruining her marriage!
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Dec 23, 2015 23:15
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LinkesAuge posted:I really doubt that it would allow for such huge changes. Let's not forget, they have 3 different directors and need to make sure that none of those screw the other one so the major plot points should be set in stone by this point (and that certainly includes any big reveal/twist). There will certainly be some minor wiggle room like with Poe but I'd be VERY surprised if they didn't already know where at least Rey, Ren, Luke and Snoke end up in the story. But that's not how films are done! EVAR!
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Dec 23, 2015 23:16
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They've established that mind tricking people is something that a lot of latent force users figure out how to do on their own, even if they don't really know they're doing it.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:23
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The original trilogy was made up as they went along, including vader's reveal in ESB
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Dec 23, 2015 23:25
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Just saw it in 3D for my second viewing, enjoyed it just as much as the first time. Film owns bones. Some fat guy sitting close to me left when Han died and didn't come back.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:27
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I don't even know what to say about the white-hot defense Rey gets. How is this not patently obvious? Nobody is being nitpicky - like, the way she is depicted in the movie, Rey feels completely separate from the rest of the team. There is no moment where she's in any peril without her immediately getting a new power to overcome that peril. Just, you know, as a mental exercise, compare her to Finn, the deuteragonist. Finn gets blown the gently caress out of the TIE; Finn winds up being mostly worthless during the Falcon's escape from Jakku, to the point where all he has to do to destroy that last TIE is pull the trigger (he literally cannot move the turret); Finn is about to get eaten by Cthulu before Rey saves him; Finn is getting wrecked by the stormtrooper with his electrotonfa before being saved; Finn gets grievously wounded by Kylo Ren during their lightsaber duel. Finn fails, and quite a lot. He needs help to grow and change as a character. What's more, he doesn't feel oversold to the audience, so it's easier to cheer him on and it's more satisfying when he finds his courage and elects to try to save Rey from Starkiller base (even if she escaped on her own). Finn's survival literally depends on Poe, Rey, Han, and Chewie in an immediate and visceral sense. He feels like part of a team. Rey doesn't, because she solves all of her problems because the movie just straight up gives her new powers. Saying that "everyone with Force sensitivity can just use all the Force powers from the jump" is beyond an apologia, it's nonsensical - there is literally no reason for the Jedi or Sith to exist if just anyone can do it whenever. The mind trick in the OT is the exclusive property of Space Gandalf until Luke comes into his own two entire movies later. It's also missing the metafictional crux of the argument: Rey trades on nostalgia, and seems deliberately "sold" to you by the writers. If someone had said to you "My Star Wars story features a new Force sensitive who can use Force powers with no training, never loses, gets Luke's old lightsaber, and flies the Millennium Falcon" on the fanfiction.net forums, you would laugh your rear end off. TFA is just trying too hard to make you like Rey by having her depicted this way. Let her lose! Decisively! Like, that's okay! Nobody is going to think "welp we tried the whole girl Jedi thing and it didn't work out, she lost one lightsaber duel, better put her in the back with the slave Leia outfit"! At least, nobody whose opinion you should consider. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 23:27
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guts and bolts posted:I don't even know what to say about the white-hot defense Rey gets. How is this not patently obvious? Nobody is being nitpicky - like, the way she is depicted in the movie, Rey feels completely separate from the rest of the team. There is no moment where she's in any peril without her immediately getting a new power to overcome that peril. Just, you know, as a mental exercise, compare her to Finn, the deuteragonist. Finn gets blown the gently caress out of the TIE; Finn winds up being mostly worthless during the Falcon's escape from Jakku, to the point where all he has to do to destroy that last TIE is pull the trigger (he literally cannot move the turret); Finn is about to get eaten by Cthulu before Rey saves him; Finn is getting wrecked by the stormtrooper with his electrotonfa before being saved; Finn gets grievously wounded by Kylo Ren during their lightsaber duel. Cool it on the "My eyes are open in the land of the blind" poo poo dude. You didn't like Rey. Who cares.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:29
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ImpAtom posted:It's a little weird to say "Rey never fails or needs help" and then list a bunch of times she fails or needs help but say they don't count for whatever reason. No, she doesn't. She's "beaten" by Ren, but it's obvious from even before Ren confronts her there is no stakes in their confrontation whatsoever and it's something that she escapes from her own terms without resolving any internal conflict. Speaking of which ImpAtom posted:Think back to Yoda's training in ESB. He never goes "Luke, to lift this rock, you must put extra points into your WIS modifier." He in fact explicitly points out that Luke's problem is entirely mental and him trying to approach it the wrong way Thank you for actually proving the problem by reminding that it's failing on a cinematic level not "Rey is a minimaxer roleplayer" one. Throughout a New Hope to Return of the Jedi, Luke's character arc indicates his capability with the Force. All he could do in a New Hope is make a nearly impossible shot after trying it twice, with Ben and Han's help, because he's still a immature farm boy who's a good pilot. ESB he's overcoming his immaturity and becoming wise/just person but he's ridden with insecurity and self decpetion (fueled in part by his teachers, despite wanting to guide him out of this) so he's an uneven and inconsistent Jedi in training occasionally pulling something off impressive but at the end of the day just something Vader can play with. It's only after overcoming his personal issues and even finding it in his heart to accept his heritage as Vader's son, and try to find something redeeming in what everyone says is in a soulless monster that he becomes a real Jedi. Hours are devoted to this What is Rey's character arc in comparison to this. "This lightsaber scares me" and "Oh wait there's nothing waiting for me at home". Admitting there is just as much material to work with this and as with Luke's arc...the problem is Finn arc gets all the screen time and Rey's is reduced to a couple of lines and some cool CGI. The problem is that she makes coming off being Force Sensitive as no different than having super powers or being a mutant. It really is reduced to the plot logic/rpg logic of "The longer she has her powers...the more dangerous she becomes" because on the thematic level it's even dumber. Hell she's the protagonist and her story arc isn't even mirrored by Ren's really outside of a brief line despite big potential for it and adding depth to her character arc that way.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:31
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Amethyst posted:Cool it on the "My eyes are open in the land of the blind" poo poo dude. You didn't like Rey. Who cares. You have literally read nothing I've written if you think I don't like Rey. I liked Rey, and loved the movie. Being critical of something doesn't mean you don't like it. Hope this helps in your future endeavors.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:31
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Amethyst posted:Cool it on the "My eyes are open in the land of the blind" poo poo dude. You didn't like Rey. Who cares. In the thread of deep accusations of sexism and bigotry if you didn't like her, this is patently untrue.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:32
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I don't get this "there are no stakes" business. Can you, like, explain what you mean here? It is coming off as "Well I thought they might actually kill Finn, so I cared more, because I figured they wouldn't kill Rey." Like what is the difference here between, say, Finn's fight with Kylo and Rey's fight with Kylo? They have similar goals which Kylo is standing in front of. If anything Rey has higher stakes because not only might the planet blow up but Finn might have just gotten killed in front of her.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:34
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guts and bolts posted:You have literally read nothing I've written if you think I don't like Rey. I liked Rey, and loved the movie. Being critical of something doesn't mean you don't like it. Hope this helps in your future endeavors. I'd honestly found Rey bland, but not enough so that in future movies she can't become an interesting or compelling character. Also the movie's very good, but it seems like it'd be very easy for it into get a "Star Wars: Into Darkness" sequel where they just keep on remaking the OT again and again to play it safe.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:35
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Mahoning posted:I just wanna say that John Boyega's American accent in this movie is really good.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:37
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NutritiousSnack posted:No, she doesn't. She's "beaten" by Ren, but it's obvious from even before Ren confronts her there is no stakes in their confrontation whatsoever and it's something that she escapes from her own terms without resolving any internal conflict. "It doesn't count because I knew she'd escape" is an extremely weak counterargument. NutritiousSnack posted:Hell she's the protagonist and her story arc isn't even mirrored by Ren's really outside of a brief line despite big potential for it and adding depth to her character arc that way. Her story is absolutely mirrored by Ren. She is attempting to avoid and escape her legacy while Ren is desperately trying to embrace it. She seeks Han Solo's approval as a father while Ren rejects it. She longs for her family and Ren kills his. The mere fact you say this proves you're not actually making a fair argument because claiming that a character literally defined by her intense longing and desire for the family she lost is not the thematic mirror of the character who willingly rejects that family in pursuit of power is pretty drat narrowminded.\ ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 23:37
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a Loving Dog posted:thats honestly my biggest complaint in the movie considering how much stuff was jam packed into this movie I have a feeling a lot of things got cut to shorten the running time. My biggest complaint on my end is Luke will never get reunite with Han unless that old smuggler shows up as a force ghost (he did self sacrifice in a sort of attempt to save his son from the darkside). Here's the thing I hope TFA and its sequels finally explains: force ghosts. Did the force ghosts that kept bugging luke just gently caress off after ROTJ or can they just roll on up to him at any time. I worry that Luke has to put up with whiny young anakin ghost complaining about sand for the umpteenth time that day. G-III fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 23:39
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guts and bolts posted:I don't even know what to say about the white-hot defense Rey gets Funny, I don't know what to say about the white-hot hurt people have over Rey.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:39
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Nessus posted:I don't get this "there are no stakes" business. Can you, like, explain what you mean here? It is coming off as "Well I thought they might actually kill Finn, so I cared more, because I figured they wouldn't kill Rey." The main difference between Finn's fight with Kylo and Rey's fight with Kylo is the outcome. Finn loses, and Rey wins. The other main differences are built in to the lead-up to that moment. Rey had never credibly lost at any point earlier in TFA, so her fate felt like a foregone conclusion - why would she mysteriously start losing now? Scenes don't exist in a vacuum. At that point in the movie, she's already escaped the Starkiller base on her own, expertly piloted a two-man freighter by herself, beaten an at-least-mildly trained space wizard at space magic probes, and put the boots to a bunch of mooks. When people are talking about stakes, they mean personal ones; the actual plot and backdrop of the movie, as well as its MacGuffin, are dumb and who cares because Star Wars is basically supposed to be about likable people you want to see go on cool space adventures. Finn's decision to fight Kylo with the lightsaber, thematically, just means more. He's gotten his rear end kicked for most of the movie, and is terrified of the First Order (and, one imagines, Kylo Ren himself). He has an intimate knowledge of what they're capable of. He already tried this lightsaber thing once before, and a stormtrooper beat him. As a character he probably doesn't have any real expectation to win because the movie itself doesn't keep saving him - characters in it do, and there's nobody around to save him this time. Basically, TFA coaches us to believe that Finn is likely to lose. It similarly coaches us that Rey cannot lose. That's why the "stakes" argument comes up, not the actual "planets blowin' up!" element of the plot. EDIT: ^^^^ I think I'm coming off more vehement than I am because I'm a huge fuckin' nerd. I'd like to reiterate that I like Rey and I like The Force Awakens. The flaws I find in this movie stick out to me more precisely because I liked Rey and TFA as much as I did, so the weaker parts of the movie are more easily highlighted. But again, I don't think "being critical of Rey and how bad the writers want us to like her/think she's badass" is the same as being butthurt, or whatever you're driving at. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 23:40
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ZypherIM posted:She blames the wookie for ruining her marriage! this hadn't occurred to me and I love it.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:42
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Rey's character clicked for me the moment I realized her purpose in this film: she's literally an audience surrogate. She lives in an AT-AT, she has a Rebel pilot action figure and helmet, she's obsessed with the past and staying where she is. For the first half of the film all she wants to do is go back to her comfortable nostalgia. loving Han Solo says to her, "Come on. Take my hand and let's move into the future together." Rey's character arc is basically J. J. Abrams speaking directly to an audience comprised of disillusioned Star Wars fans who want to cling to the original trilogy. He's asking you to get hyped about fun new Star Wars adventures.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:42
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guts and bolts posted:Rey had never credibly lost at any point earlier in TFA, so her fate felt like a foregone conclusion - why would she mysteriously start losing now? guts and bolts posted:Let her lose! Decisively! She did. It's not good enough for you. She needs to justify more than her male counterparts because otherwise everything she does is written off because if a woman is too competent it is overcompensating. Rey losing to Ren and getting captured isn't good enough for you because she wins later. Your argument is that Rey has to lose and lose super-duper hard because otherwise she 'never loses' because you downplay every single loss she has and keep emphasizing that it is because you believe they're trying too hard to make a female character competent.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:43
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guts and bolts posted:The main difference between Finn's fight with Kylo and Rey's fight with Kylo is the outcome. Finn loses, and Rey wins. Does Luke ever lose in ANH? I know he doesn't really take much affirmative action in that film, but when he does it's generally right and perfect. Remember, the middle chapter of a trilogy tends to be the dark one where the hero fucks up a bunch of times and hits a low point.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:44
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Steve2911 posted:Does Luke ever lose in ANH? I know he doesn't really take much affirmative action in that film, but when he does it's generally right and perfect. Luke never ever lost and if he lost (his hand) he didn't really since he not only get a robotic replacement but he beat Vader later on. Clearly in the OT story as a whole, Luke has absolutely never ever lost. Logic.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:46
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I think Rey is a somewhat less interesting character than Luke Skywalker or Anakin, but also this new trilogy is not about Rey the same way the original trilogy was about Luke and the prequels were about Anakin. Finn and Poe don't seem like supporting character who exist mostly to help propel Rey forward on her journey like Leia and Han were for Luke. All this nitpicking about Rey's powers, though.  Sorry a girl has magic powers, guys and doesn't need a man's help at every step.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:48
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guts and bolts posted:Hope this helps in your future endeavors. This poo poo is retarded. People have disputed a lot of the dumb stuff you've said but you have moved the goalposts about a thousand times by now I'm not sure why anyone else is even bothering.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:48
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Making the good guy decisively lose at the end of a pretty light hearted adventure movie just so you can subvert the metanarrative expectations of the pop culture junkies in the audience is not a good idea, everyone. Han Solo already got killed which is enough of a downer.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:50
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Steve2911 posted:Does Luke ever lose in ANH? I know he doesn't really take much affirmative action in that film, but when he does it's generally right and perfect. From memory, he gets rescued from Sand People, a trash compactor, Darth Vader. drat, Rey is a terrible character.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:51
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