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PT6A posted:I flew an hour to see this movie in a VIP theatre and I was worried it wouldn't by worth it, but it was totally worth it, and if you don't like this movie, on the balance, you're basically a horrible person who hates fun. I hate this argument. "You hate fun" if you didn't like "X".
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Dec 23, 2015 23:18
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MisterBibs posted:Not my fault if I'm not buying that Kylo is threatening. It's not your fault, but it doesn't make you any less of an idiot - you're being incredibly pigheaded and condescending to those who disagree with you. As it's been previously stated, Kylo Ren: - Orders an entire village to be killed in the first scene of the movie - Kills his father in cold blood - Murders all of Luke's jedi students and is the single reason why he goes into hiding/exile - Kylo takes a shot from Chewie's bowcaster (previously seen to send Stormtroopers flying) yet continues to fight, and almost beats both Finn and Rey (while punching his wound throughout the fight) How does this not make him threatening?
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Dec 23, 2015 23:20
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jivjov posted:We've been trying that tactic for a couple pages now; and its not working. "Here's some literal textual evidence of this character being threatening" "NOPE, NO THREAT THERE!" It sounds like he basically just wants a Marvel Movie villain. Which is fine; in spite of CineD's opinion it is entirely fine to have a throwaway antagonist in favor of developing serial characters. But that doesn't mean Kylo Ren is a bad antagonist, he just isn't CGI Hitler Barks Cool Speech At Hero While Powering Up. And that's okay.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:20
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Neurolimal posted:It sounds like he basically just wants a Marvel Movie villain. Which is fine; in spite of CineD's opinion it is entirely fine to have a throwaway antagonist in favor of developing serial characters. If those arguing against Kylo Ren being a good villain would just straight up have said "I'd rather have had a turboHitler Marvel Cinematic Universe bland, one-note vanilla villain instead of this emo-pussyboy beta male garbage" then I'd find no reason to have this debate, heh.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:24
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:Fascism has always adopted symbols of the worker as part of its goal of positioning itself as the "third way" that rejects pure communism and capitalism in favor of a synthesis of the two. Recall that the initial success of the Nazi Party relied on its appeal as the workingman's party of the right, opposed to degenerate leftists and the aristocracy. The Night of the Long Knives was a purge of the party's labor-oriented left wing. The party even had a paramilitary labor service, the Reichsarbeitsdienst, that had as its mission the militarization and indoctrination of the working class and the support of the military's construction and infrastructure needs. You're mostly correct, but we should avoid ambiguity. The New Order are simply "Left-Fascist". But then, the question is why that is presented as The Real Threat in this year, 2015. Audiences are scratching their heads, not really engaged with the premise. Steve2911 posted:Having bad things in a movie does not make the movie interesting stop this. If you are interested in something, then it is interesting. The prequels are loaded with interesting things that threaten you. People have been utterly fascinated by Jar Jar for 16 years - can't stop thinking about him. The CG orange alien in this movie is not interesting, and neither is CG Snoke. And most of the 'omg practical effects' are onscreen for a fraction of a second each, as if the filmmakers were ashamed to show them for longer. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 23:26
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Jonny_Rocket posted:It's not your fault, but it doesn't make you any less of an idiot - you're being incredibly pigheaded and condescending to those who disagree with you. - Troops do it - Old unarmed man - Need context for it to be threatening. In the flashback Luke is standing near a burning building, maybe he just blew it up? I don't know, and I'm not gonna be scared til I do. - Glancing blow, big whoop - Fails to kill either. This is the guy that supposedly killed all of Luke's trainees? None of it makes them threatening. It makes him a joke. Stop trying to claim a joke character is, at all, threatening. I'm not being condescending; you think what you think, just don't try and piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 23:26
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MisterBibs posted:- Troops do it Post a video of you fighting Kylo Ren. I would actually even accept a video of you fighting either Adam Driver or anyone with Adam Driver's height and weight.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:29
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MisterBibs posted:- Troops do it Darth Vader literally kills more of his own men than he kills enemies.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:30
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ImpAtom posted:Darth Vader literally kills more of his own men than he kills enemies. Yes, because Vader doesn't brook failure. If Vader's subordinates fail, they get killed, not a view to a computer-panel light show.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:32
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The orange alien in this movie is not interesting - and most of the 'omg practical effects' are onscreen for a fraction of a second each, as if the filmmakers were ashamed to show them for longer. The practical effects are actually shown for a pretty large amount of time; most of the aliens, BB-8 and droid friends, the majority of the weapons (besides the obvious plasma swords/blaster shots), the majority of the spaceships, and a large amount of environmental damage (enhanced by CGI to avoid the Sturofoam Rock effect). They dont get enormous lingering shots because the prop-maker isn't directing. The fact that you passively ignored or didn't notice the use of practical effects is the testament to the natural advantages in having a practical-effect base. Your circular arguing is well choreographed and your wild flaming posts are terrifying, but like Kylo Ren you will soon falter in the face of true belief.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:33
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Kylo Ren killing an unarmed old man actually makes him more threatening.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:33
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MisterBibs posted:- Troops do it Just because he doesn't personally kill every last person in the village doesn't mean he's not threatening. The fact that he's willing to commit the 'taboo' of killing an unarmed man is, in itself, threatening. I'll give you the apprentices and Luke's exile thing, because we legit don't know how the whole thing went down He took a straight shot to the gut. Glancing blow my rear end. He explicitly was not trying to kill Rey, he wanted to bring her back to Snoke and train her. Kylo is not a joke character. Is not presented as a joke character. Has no joking qualities about him. Stop making poo poo up that's not in any way supported by the film.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:33
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how is it this easy for MisterBibs to troll this thread y'all
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Dec 23, 2015 23:33
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MisterBibs posted:- Troops do it -Kills who we can assume is the village leader before giving orders -You must be a sociopath if you don't see the significance of how Ben killing Han (his FATHER) makes him a loving monster -Major plot point is a major plot point because of Kylo Ren -Bowcaster was played up as being extremely powerful in previous scenes, e.g., it was a plant-payoff. Kylo Ren took a shot straight to the gut while storm troopers were shown to be catapulted into the air when getting hit by it. -Ben is still a student himself. Manages to put Finn in a coma, is bested by Rey because the film plays her up as an ultra-sensitive Force being, but also because the film had previously shown us she's competent and capable as a fighter. I mean, she better be after living the live she did on Jakku. Ren was also trying to capture, not kill, Rey. MisterBibs posted:Yes, because Vader doesn't brook failure. If Vader's subordinates fail, they get killed, not a view to a computer-panel light show. You realize how this characterizes Ren in comparison to Vader, right? teagone fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 23:34
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MisterBibs posted:just don't try and piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. Well you do appear to be ignorant enough to believe it.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:37
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ok y'all are just falling all over yourselves at this point. don't feed the troll. can we go back to talking about how the prequels were a horrible racist mess?
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Dec 23, 2015 23:38
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:ok y'all are just falling all over yourselves at this point. don't feed the troll. B-b-b-but what if those people who think Kylo Ren isn't threatening or a good villain aren't trolling and actually think that? 
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Dec 23, 2015 23:39
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Ah man, I just booted up KOTOR 2, having never played it before, and the first thought I had was 'none of this actually happened in Star Wars anymore' and I shut it down after two minutes. I'm literal scum.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:40
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Steve2911 posted:Ah man, I just booted up KOTOR 2, having never played it before, and the first thought I had was 'none of this actually happened in Star Wars anymore' and I shut it down after two minutes. If it makes you feel better, all the Legends stuff is still in continuity with itself. Its just an alternate timeline now. Also, I love that "scum" is just such a Star Wars-y insult. I think someone is called "scum" in 5 or 6 of the movies.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:42
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Misterbibs is owning y'all because of course Kylo isn't actually threatening. He's a sympathetic character like both Finn and Rey, who just happens to have a red lightsaber instead of a blue one. Consequently, this film fosters a sense of ambivalence. Neurolimal posted:The practical effects are actually shown for a pretty large amount of time; most of the aliens, BB-8 and droid friends, the majority of the weapons (besides the obvious plasma swords/blaster shots), the majority of the spaceships, and a large amount of environmental damage (enhanced by CGI to avoid the Sturofoam Rock effect). They dont get enormous lingering shots because the prop-maker isn't directing. The fact that you passively ignored or didn't notice the use of practical effects is the testament to the natural advantages in having a practical-effect base. I am referring to the alien puppets and costumes, not other props. None of them are onscreen as much as, say, Greedo. Compare the greedy nemoidians to the greedy junk dealer guy in this film. The nemoidians have personalities. It's an issue with the CG as well: compare the blob monsters here with the arena monsters in Attack Of The Clones.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:42
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jivjov posted:Stop making poo poo up that's not in any way supported by the film. If I was doing that, I'd be inventing analyses that end in Kylo Ren Is Threatening. Nothing in the movie supports such fanon. It's simply not within the domain of believability, and we're talking about a movie with literal space wizards, here!
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Dec 23, 2015 23:47
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Steve2911 posted:Ah man, I just booted up KOTOR 2, having never played it before, and the first thought I had was 'none of this actually happened in Star Wars anymore' and I shut it down after two minutes.  Or, well, at least Malachor exists.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:47
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Remember when Kylo force choked someone and dragged them across the room? What a loving pussy! Or how he effortlessly dragged his saber up the spine of Finn? Anyone could do that!
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Dec 23, 2015 23:49
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Steve2911 posted:Ah man, I just booted up KOTOR 2, having never played it before, and the first thought I had was 'none of this actually happened in Star Wars anymore' and I shut it down after two minutes. Now you get to start it back up and try to make it through that boring rear end mining facility without quitting the game.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:50
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:ok y'all are just falling all over yourselves at this point. don't feed the troll. Sure. What race was Dexter Jettster supposed to be stereotyping again?
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Dec 23, 2015 23:53
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Misterbibs is owning y'all because of course Kylo isn't actually threatening. Just because a character has a few traits that people can sympathize with doesn't mean they can't also be threatening/scary. Kylo Ren is an incredibly unstable Sith extremist who, by the end of the film, has lost all sense of humanity. MisterBibs isn't "owning" anyone, if anything, it's the other way around. But of course the master troll would rush to the defense of another troll, so I can't say I'm surprised.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:54
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Cnut the Great posted:Sure. What race was Dexter Jettster supposed to be stereotyping again? The white man.
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Dec 23, 2015 23:59
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MisterBibs posted:If I was doing that, I'd be inventing analyses that end in Kylo Ren Is Threatening. Nothing in the movie supports such fanon. It's simply not within the domain of believability, and we're talking about a movie with literal space wizards, here! Okay, so you're a literal troll and you're not actually trying to have any kind of honest discussion. Thanks for coming clean.
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Dec 24, 2015 00:01
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Cnut the Great posted:Sure. What race was Dexter Jettster supposed to be stereotyping again? He stereotypes the droid race.
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Dec 24, 2015 00:02
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There is no conspiracy against you. I think people are getting confused between what a character does and how he does it. Furthermore, there's the issue of how it's all presented. Kylo is frequently made to look frustrated and impotent, and this colors how we interpret his attacks. He doesn't actually look unstable. He looks like he's trying to act unstable - like it's all a show. When we say that a character is threatening, there is also the basic question of what he's threatening. Rey is fighting Ren because he killed Han, but what's so great about Han that Rey will fight to the death to avenge him?
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Dec 24, 2015 00:04
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I am referring to the alien puppets and costumes, not other props. None of them are onscreen as much as, say, Greedo. Compare the greedy nemoidians to the greedy junk dealer guy in this film. The nemoidians have personalities. Maz is onscreen for a large amount of time (and is an example of CGI used appropriately), Chewbacca is a full-suit alien character and gets a lot of screentime, Ren's food trader gets a large presence as her first antagonist. The greedy junk dealer has as much personality as required: he scams people, he preys on the desperate, he uses extralegal measures when his exploitation fails. He's a bipedal Jabba. The nemoidians got a lot of development. Incidentally, most people do not like the nemoidians.
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Dec 24, 2015 00:04
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There's that montage implying (perhaps deceptively) that the junk trader was Rey's caretaker, at least for a while, which is a detail I like. Just one brief shot of a hand coming in from off-screen tells us a lot about that situation.
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Dec 24, 2015 00:06
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jivjov posted:Okay, so you're a literal troll and you're not actually trying to have any kind of honest discussion. Thanks for coming clean. I'm willing to have an honest discussion; painting Kylo as threatening/dangerous is inherently being dishonest about what the film is showing you.
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Dec 24, 2015 00:07
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Neurolimal posted:Maz is onscreen for a large amount of time (and is an example of CGI used appropriately), Chewbacca is a full-suit alien character and gets a lot of screentime, Ren's food trader gets a large presence as her first antagonist. This is what I'm talking about : "He's a bipedal Jabba. He has as much personality as required." Zero enthusiasm. This will be nobody's favorite character. I fuckin love the Nemoidians. They're fantastic. Guy A. Person posted:Misterbibs isn't owning anyone because he is using some super bizarre metric whereby an antagonist is only an effective character if they are sufficiently "threatening" to him. Which seems to be a mix of their competence in hurting the good guys and his own personal fear. He said the movie was excellent except for the too un-threatening bad guy, he is just steering the discussion into a direction where he can "win". He's 'winning' because people have accepted his dumb premise. Instead of saying a good character doesn't need to be scary, people are like "Ren is incredibly threatening! The most terrifying character to ever appear on film!" SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 00:10
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MisterBibs posted:I'm willing to have an honest discussion; painting Kylo as threatening/dangerous is inherently being dishonest about what the film is showing you. The fact that you say this after being presented with a mountain of evidence to the contrary is what reveals you for the troll you are. Yes, Kylo is pitiful and a sad character. He is ALSO incredibly threatening. These are not mutually exclusive
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Dec 24, 2015 00:13
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:This is what I'm talking about : "He's a bipedal Jabba. He has as much personality as required."
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Dec 24, 2015 00:15
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Misterbibs is owning y'all because of course Kylo isn't actually threatening. Misterbibs isn't owning anyone because he is using some super bizarre metric whereby an antagonist is only an effective character if they are sufficiently "threatening" to him. Which seems to be a mix of their competence in hurting the good guys and his own personal fear. He said the movie was excellent except for the too un-threatening bad guy, he is just steering the discussion into a direction where he can "win". He's also clearly trolling at this point because he is doubling down hard on this weird definition while gleefully mocking everyone for being dumb and comparing them to gamergate. I'd expect as much from someone who hones their writing craft on the fuckin' SCP website.
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Dec 24, 2015 00:15
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There is no conspiracy against you. Han offered Rey a job. But seriously, there's a bit of dialogue when Kylo Ren is probing Rey's mind and finds out that she feels like Han is the father she never had. Come on. From earlier: SuperMechagodzilla posted:Misterbibs is owning y'all because of course Kylo isn't actually threatening. He's not owning poo poo. A character can be sympathetic (humanized) and still be threatening. I don't recall Finn or Rey murdering anyone in cold blood. Are you going to point out dropping Phasma in the trash compactor? teagone fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 00:15
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jivjov posted:He is ALSO incredibly threatening. This is the dishonesty I was referring to.
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Dec 24, 2015 00:16
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This entire argument is a new low for CineD
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Dec 24, 2015 00:17
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