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TG-Chrono posted:I think noted shitposter MisterBibs runs this account. No chance. That account is actually funny.
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Dec 24, 2015 06:57
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Hand Knit posted:Speaking of characters and canon, has anyone else in this 4000 post thread remarked yet that Rey is a character who was abandoned ~15-20 years ago and has sustained herself by salvaging Star Wars brand memorabilia and fantasizing about the events of the original trilogy? The Force Awakens seems to have a story running through it about canon and fandom, but I'm not sure how complete it is. Yeah, I know I've commented on it. Either in this thread or the other one. Rey represents Star Wars fans, in particular the ones who feel disillusioned with Star Wars. She lives in an AT-AT and collects Star Wars memorabilia. She wants to live in her comfortable nostalgia, and spends the middle of the movie wanting nothing but to return to it. Her character arc is basically J. J. Abrams speaking to us directly, reassuring us that it's okay to venture out into the galaxy and have adventures (to like Star Wars again), to the point that he has Han Solo himself say so to her. By the end of the movie, she's embraced her destiny, as, presumably, J. J. Abrams is hoping fans will embrace his new addition to the series.
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Dec 24, 2015 06:57
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Hand Knit posted:Speaking of characters and canon, has anyone else in this 4000 post thread remarked yet that Rey is a character who was abandoned ~15-20 years ago and has sustained herself by salvaging Star Wars brand memorabilia and fantasizing about the events of the original trilogy? The Force Awakens seems to have a story running through it about canon and fandom, but I'm not sure how complete it is. Prior to the film's release, this subtext/meta narrative of "merchandise collector" had been discussed surrounding Kylo Ren's character when we learned from the leaks that he was essentially a Sith fanboy obsessed with Darth Vader, collecting dark side trinkets and whatnot, and is basically a cosplaying turbonerd. Adam Driver's appearance definitely helps sell that idea, but as has been argued before, having those characteristics doesn't make him any less of a proper, threatening villain. I feel like it makes him really interesting since it subverts the typical "badass" villain whose agency is focused solely on death and destruction.
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Dec 24, 2015 06:59
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If you walk up to Kylo Ren completely unarmed and stand directly in front of his laser sword, you're probably in trouble. Otherwise he poses practically no harm to anyone whatsoever. It wasn't even his idea to fire the big gently caress-off laser. Dude was a total dweeb and pretty much all of his scenes lacked tension.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:03
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Tiptoes posted:If you walk up to Kylo Ren completely unarmed and stand directly in front of his laser sword, you're probably in trouble. Otherwise he poses practically no harm to anyone whatsoever. It wasn't even his idea to fire the big gently caress-off laser. Dude was a total dweeb and pretty much all of his scenes lacked tension. He froze Poe Dameron and his beam which was a gasp worthy moment at my screening. Haven't seen that type of poo poo before. He then basically pulled information through Poe's face with his hand. Again though, people are confusing "the movie makes jokes about this character" with "this character is an ineffectual joke". His scenes don't lack tension because even though he is a dweeb, he is an unhinged guy with a lightsaber. You are afraid he will hurt people and he does, repeatedly.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:09
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Tiptoes posted:If you walk up to Kylo Ren completely unarmed and stand directly in front of his laser sword, you're probably in trouble. Otherwise he poses practically no harm to anyone whatsoever.  ...ends up in coma. quote:It wasn't even his idea to fire the big gently caress-off laser. Dude was a total dweeb and pretty much all of his scenes lacked tension. [edit] Added spoiler tags teagone fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 07:11
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Phylodox posted:Yeah, I know I've commented on it. Either in this thread or the other one. Rey represents Star Wars fans, in particular the ones who feel disillusioned with Star Wars. She lives in an AT-AT and collects Star Wars memorabilia. She wants to live in her comfortable nostalgia, and spends the middle of the movie wanting nothing but to return to it. Her character arc is basically J. J. Abrams speaking to us directly, reassuring us that it's okay to venture out into the galaxy and have adventures (to like Star Wars again), to the point that he has Han Solo himself say so to her. By the end of the movie, she's embraced her destiny, as, presumably, J. J. Abrams is hoping fans will embrace his new addition to the series. Yeah, I follow that, although I think that's kinda harmed by the fact that the film takes us all the way to her meeting Luke. It gives the impression that the story of episode seven isn't so much breaking free and heading on new adventures, but rather looking for the approval of the old trilogy canon. Honestly, at times the way they navigate references and fandom in a story where the characters are looking for Luke Skywalker gives this film the feeling of Spaceballs 2: The Search for More Money. teagone posted:Prior to the film's release, this subtext/meta narrative of "merchandise collector" had been discussed surrounding Kylo Ren's character when we learned from the leaks that he was essentially a Sith fanboy obsessed with Darth Vader, collecting dark side trinkets and whatnot, and is basically a cosplaying turbonerd. Adam Driver's appearance definitely helps sell that idea, but as has been argued before, having those characteristics doesn't make him any less of a proper, threatening villain. I feel like it makes him really interesting since it subverts the typical "badass" villain whose agency is focused solely on death and destruction. I found the Kylo Ren character really interesting in this film, but to be honest I felt the meta-fandom stuff was a bit of a drag sometimes. At least it creates a conflict between him and Rey along the lines of "The Right Sort of Fandom," but I found that mostly irritating in a film that is carrying a ubiquitous brand (and a brand with more than a little self-policing fandom at that). Scratch the "About Star Wars" angle and I really like the idea of a character who is properly villainous, but is also consciously trying to perform what he thinks it is to be a villain, and his idea of what it is to be a villain is different from what actually makes him a villain. Reminds me of a line from an X-Files episode: "We were right that we're looking for someone who has seen too many vampire movies. It just turns out that this person happens to also be a vampire."
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Dec 24, 2015 07:11
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Hand Knit posted:Yeah, I follow that, although I think that's kinda harmed by the fact that the film takes us all the way to her meeting Luke. It gives the impression that the story of episode seven isn't so much breaking free and heading on new adventures, but rather looking for the approval of the old trilogy canon. Honestly, at times the way they navigate references and fandom in a story where the characters are looking for Luke Skywalker gives this film the feeling of Spaceballs 2: The Search for More Money. That was at the request of Rian Johnson, future director of Episode VIII, apparently. He did it so that the following movie won't be "all about finding Luke Skywalker". The Force Awakens very much is about "looking for the approval of the old trilogy". The movie is about a bunch of Star Wars fans getting to meet their heroes and re-enact A New Hope, and what that means to them, and what that means to their heroes, and what that means to the fans and the franchise.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:17
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Phylodox posted:The Force Awakens very much is about "looking for the approval of the old trilogy". The movie is about a bunch of Star Wars fans getting to meet their heroes and re-enact A New Hope, and what that means to them, and what that means to their heroes, and what that means to the fans and the franchise. Which is the perfect way to execute a "soft reboot" in my opinion.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:21
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teagone posted:Except this guy, who by the way is totally not scared or intimidated in this clip because Kylo Ren is unthreatening... Tiptoes fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 07:21
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teagone posted:Which is the perfect way to execute a "soft reboot" in my opinion. I wouldn't even really call it a reboot. Except, maybe, a thematic reboot. The original Star Wars was a movie about fairy tales and old serial movies, only updated for a modern audience. Now, Star Wars is the fairy tale, so the new Star Wars movies are to them what the originals were to the old Buck Rogers films. Loving homages that happen to take place in the same universe, and populated by people who view the events of the old trilogy the same way we do.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:25
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Tiptoes posted:Did you expect that guy to die? Cause I sure didn't. Just because the character is written to show fear there doesn't mean I was at all worried about his fate as a viewer because I knew there was no way he was going to die in that scene. Superficial wounds that will be completely healed by the time Episode VIII starts do not concern me. I felt zero tension as a viewer and that is a failure of the character and the writers. This is such utter hogshit though. Yes you are watching a serialized movie and no the main character isn't going to die. Neither is James Bond, Captain Kirk or Spider-Man. You are being disingenuous as hell right now.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:25
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Tiptoes posted:Did you expect that guy to die? Cause I sure didn't. Just because the character is written to show fear there doesn't mean I was at all worried about his fate as a viewer because I knew there was no way he was going to die in that scene. Superficial wounds that will be completely healed by the time Episode VIII starts do not concern me. I felt zero tension as a viewer and that is a failure of the character and the writers. Terrorist Fistbump fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 07:29
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Phylodox posted:I wouldn't even really call it a reboot. Except, maybe, a thematic reboot. The original Star Wars was a movie about fairy tales and old serial movies, only updated for a modern audience. Now, Star Wars is the fairy tale, so the new Star Wars movies are to them what the originals were to the old Buck Rogers films. Loving homages that happen to take place in the same universe, and populated by people who view the events of the old trilogy the same way we do. Well the film was essentially A New Hope 2.0, but that's not a bad thing. It has plenty of subversive elements to make it not really feel like a "reboot" per se, along with what you mentioned, but it definitely is meant to be a reintroductory film, hence it being called a "soft" reboot by some. Other soft reboot examples include Fury Road, Jurassic World, and Terminator Genisys. I think we agree? Lol. Tiptoes posted:Did you expect that guy to die? Cause I sure didn't. Just because the character is written to show fear there doesn't mean I was at all worried about his fate as a viewer because I knew there was no way he was going to die in that scene. Superficial wounds that will be completely healed by the time Episode VIII starts do not concern me. I felt zero tension as a viewer and that is a failure of the character and the writers. Have you ever considered that maybe the problem isn't the writers or the characters, but instead maybe it's you?
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Dec 24, 2015 07:30
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Whatever. The movie constantly undermined whatever threat he posed, whether it was Poe immediately going into a comedy bit when face-to-face with Ren for the first time, or his awkward, insecure body language when "torturing" Rey without any success or even doing any harm to her, or in the end when he fights a couple of amateurs and gets wrecked. My takeaway as a viewer was that this guy was not nearly as intimidating as I felt he should've been and that was a big negative for me while watching the film. You guys felt differently, sure, but I just wanted to throw it out there that yeah, more people than MisterBibs had problems with Ren's presence in the film. Tiptoes fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 07:33
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Man, I really dig Kylo Ren as a character. Setting aside the fanboy aspect, Driver did a great job making him seem like the conflicted dude he was. From his relationship with his dad to his relationship with his own self image. He was sympathetic and scary. He was a good kid trying to be bad, succeeding at being bad, but unsure that he's capable of destroying his identity. I enjoyed the way he's be all calm and menacing Vader style, but when poo poo hosed up he totally lost his composure in a way Vader never did.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:34
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Tiptoes posted:Whatever. The movie constantly undermined whatever threat he posed, whether it was Poe immediately going into a comedy bit when face-to-face with Ren for the first time, or his awkward, insecure body language when "torturing" Rey without any success or even doing any harm to her, or in the end when he fights a couple of amateurs and gets wrecked. My takeaway as a viewer was that this guy was not nearly as intimidating as I felt he should've been and that was a big negative for me while watching the film. These are more well reasoned points and you should have lead with them.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:36
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Guy A. Person posted:Yes you are watching a serialized movie and no the main character isn't going to die. The trick is to make the audience think he could kill someone that isn't old, unarmed, or a piece of technology.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:37
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MisterBibs posted:The trick is to make the audience think he could kill someone that isn't old, unarmed, or a piece of technology. "Could" as in capable or "could" as in it might actually happen. He looked capable of slicing Ren and Poe in half when he had them frozen in mid-air, but obviously he didn't because (spoiler for VIII and IX) none of these main characters are going to die before the end of this series.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:41
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Tiptoes posted:Whatever. The movie constantly undermined whatever threat he posed, whether it was Poe immediately going into a comedy bit when face-to-face with Ren for the first time, or his awkward, insecure body language when "torturing" Rey without any success or even doing any harm to her, or in the end when he fights a couple of amateurs and gets wrecked. My takeaway as a viewer was that this guy was not nearly as intimidating as I felt he should've been and that was a big negative for me while watching the film. Fair enough. A lot of the points you bring up do have counter-arguments though, and they've been repeated in this thread several times.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:44
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Guy A. Person posted:"Could" as in capable or "could" as in it might actually happen. Since (as we agree) it's not going to happen because these are Main Characters, you have to try for capability - you have to be able to say "Yeah, this guy may be a wannabe Vader, but he has Force training and he's going to kill this guy in a second or two". Then he only manages a superficial wound on one person, gets clowned by a second twice.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:49
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Tiptoes posted:Whatever. The movie constantly undermined whatever threat he posed, whether it was Poe immediately going into a comedy bit when face-to-face with Ren for the first time, or his awkward, insecure body language when "torturing" Rey without any success or even doing any harm to her, or in the end when he fights a couple of amateurs and gets wrecked. My takeaway as a viewer was that this guy was not nearly as intimidating as I felt he should've been and that was a big negative for me while watching the film. Then I assume you feel the same about Darth Vader who people smart off to constantly. You can't even make the argument of "well, Darth Vader chokes them" or something because Kylo Ren does in fact badly injure, torture and kill characters. Edit: Darth Vader captured Princess Leia and tortures her. He does not, however, get any of the information he wants and by the time Leia is rescued she is smarting off to Stormtroopers without even a hint of long-term suffering. She's certainly not badly injured. Other people on the station have no problem making fun of him to his face and while he responds by lashing out and attacking them that doesn't change the fact he is an object of mockery who only avoids further mockery by threatening injury. MisterBibs posted:Then he only manages a superficial wound on one person, gets clowned by a second twice. He puts Finn into a coma where he was only saved from death by emergency medical treatment. That's not a superficial wound. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 07:50
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You know, the plot was pretty blatant in its foreshadowing of Han's death. I immediately realized he was playing the role of Ben Kenobi, with Luke essentially playing Yoda. So I realized his death was incoming, but I'm still a bit sad that FYAD spoiled that plot point. Is this not a spoiler thread?
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Dec 24, 2015 07:52
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I think an important distinction to be made is Kylo Ren not being as intimidating as expected versus him not being how intimidating as expected. If you go into The Force Awakens looking for a powerful, commanding Sith Lord, and aren't prepared to accept anything else, then Ren will be a disappointment. Someone (maybe in this thread, maybe the other one) compared Ren to a school shooter, and I think that's perfect. He's dorky looking and jittery and he speaks like he's reciting dialogue, but he's a murderer. The fact that he's so unstable makes him more frightening to me, not less.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:52
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Does FYAD get to vote on its own forum subtitle or something
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Dec 24, 2015 07:53
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MisterBibs posted:Then he only manages a superficial wound on one person, gets clowned by a second twice. Superficial enough for him to end up in a loving coma. Ren got a pretty big slice out of Finn's back. Is Finn going to be paralyzed? Will he need robot legs, or worse, did Ren completely sever his spine? Will Finn need robot arms and legs? Quit underplaying the significance of major narrative components like Rey being played up a being really strong in the Force, it's pretty annoying.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:54
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I wasn't so sure Finn was even going to survive the fight tbh.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:57
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turtlecrunch posted:Does FYAD get to vote on its own forum subtitle or something It's whatever's funny
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Dec 24, 2015 07:58
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ImpAtom posted:He puts Finn into a coma where he was only saved from death by emergency medical treatment. That's not a superficial wound. We're talking about a series where a dunking in magical healing water makes you look like you could pull the ears off a large mammal. Even losing limbs isn't a big thing. So yeah, it's a superficial wound. teagone posted:Quit underplaying the significance of major narrative components like Rey being played up a being really strong in the Force, it's pretty annoying. Going from "hah this newbie is kicking your rear end" to "hah a newbie is really kicking your rear end" is still a punking.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:06
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As a fun game here is everything Darth Vader does in ANH: He appears onscreen dramatically as they invade the ship. He discovers he is already too late and the plans he came there for are gone. He strangles a rebel soldier to death with the force uselessly in a show of anger. He does capture Leia so hey, a point for him. Well, his soldiers do it and apparently we're not counting things soldiers under his command do so maybe half a point? He then takes Leia to the Death Star where he tortures her for information without success. Eventually Tarkin squirms a (fake) answer from her by threatening her homeworld. Vader senses vaguely that something is up with the Falcon but not actually in meaningful time to prevent Obi-Wan from sabotaging the tractor beam, nor to prevent Leia from getting rescued He fights Obi-Wan Kenobi who willingly lets himself die to Vader, leaving Vader obviously confused as Obi-Wan vanishes before him. The Falcon escapes with a tracking signal onboard. A point for Vader there but one which involves allowing his enemies to escape with vital plans that end up securing their victory. Vader then hangs out until the enemy is attacking the Death Star at which point he launches in his own custom fighter. He does manage to shoot down a couple of Rebel fighters so there we go. Then he's shot down by Han Solo and vanishes from the film. The last we see of him is him spinning cartoonishly off into space. So just to clarify: Vader appears, screws up getting the plans, screws up the torture, allows Luke to escape, Obi-Wan throws his fight, and then he screws up and lets the Death Star get blown up. (Something that would not have happened if he'd not screwed up any of those other things.) His only modest success is shooting down some X-WIng fighters. Otherwise he's a long-term screwup who honestly ends up helping his enemies more than his allies. MisterBibs posted:We're talking about a series where a dunking in magical healing water makes you look like you could pull the ears off a large mammal. Even losing limbs isn't a big thing. Oh, in that case, we can say the same about Darth Vader. He doesn't actually manage to successfully kill anyone more meaningful than some X-Wing pilots in the entirety of the OT unless you count teamkills. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 08:06
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MisterBibs posted:Since (as we agree) it's not going to happen because these are Main Characters, you have to try for capability - you have to be able to say "Yeah, this guy may be a wannabe Vader, but he has Force training and he's going to kill this guy in a second or two". If you have to be able to say that he's "going to" do something, then it isn't about "capability." ImpAtom posted:Oh, in that case, we can say the same about Darth Vader. He doesn't actually manage to successfully kill anyone more meaningful than some X-Wing pilots in the entirety of the OT unless you count teamkills. The actual problem is that Kylo Ren is nowhere near as cool as Vader 
Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 08:08
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MisterBibs posted:Going from "hah this newbie is kicking your rear end" to "hah a newbie is really kicking your rear end" is still a punking. I don't think anyone is saying Ren didn't get embarrassed, because yeah, he totally got dunked on; he got posterized hard at the end of the film. But that's not a detriment to his role as a terrifying/threatening villain. It's an embellishment to other aspects of his character, e.g., his overconfidence, his vulnerability, his internal struggle. His defeat really is more so a testament to the mystery of Rey's resolve and strength as a Force wielder to be honest. Not sure how many different ways I can try to spell this out.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:16
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MisterBibs posted:Since (as we agree) it's not going to happen because these are Main Characters, you have to try for capability - you have to be able to say "Yeah, this guy may be a wannabe Vader, but he has Force training and he's going to kill this guy in a second or two". Why do some people have so much trouble grasping that final fight scene? I blame video games In no way did Ren get clowned until the very end, when Rey accepted space-jesus in her heart, despite fighting 2v1 with a gaping hole in his gut Also, having your spine sliced up with an overcharged lightsaber is not a superficial wound
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Dec 24, 2015 08:17
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MisterBibs posted:Since (as we agree) it's not going to happen because these are Main Characters, you have to try for capability - you have to be able to say "Yeah, this guy may be a wannabe Vader, but he has Force training and he's going to kill this guy in a second or two". So you're talking specifically about the very last fight in the film. Which kind of takes the wind out of the "no tension in any scene" argument since it happens at the end of the film. You're saying his lack of success made you retroactively doubt his ability to succeed. Then of course as others have pointed out you are ignoring several key points in the context. He "superficially wounds" Finn by defeating him and rendering him unconscious. He gets "clowned" by Rey twice (?) after he has been shot in the gut and stabbed by Finn moments prior. Even granting you the Rey thing (which I obviously think can be argued) you're just ignoring or downplaying a bunch of stuff so you can try to pull a faux-SMG-ism with the whole "your viewing of the film is dishonest" thing. It looks bad on you.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:17
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Kylo's also literally a school-shooter in that he hosed up Luke's jedi school.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:18
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Kylo's also literally a school-shooter in that he hosed up Luke's jedi school. It's a really spot-on analogy.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:19
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Luke managed to beat Vader at the very end of the OT so he wasn't very threatening. Like, my Christ, people think it's bad writing that the good lady beat the bad man in the space fairy tale movie?
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Dec 24, 2015 08:20
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Sir Kodiak posted:The actual problem is that Kylo Ren is nowhere near as cool as Vader Darth Vader isn't cool. His voice modulator is cool. The man himself is a dork, and so is his grandson. Fortunately "cool" and "threatening" are not synonyms.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:20
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Exclamation Marx posted:This doesn't mean anything Ding ding ding. The First Order are not good villains.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:24
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I really want to point this out. Here is how Darth Vader exits ANH:  He gets nicked by his wingman exploding and goes tumbling off into space like a cartoon character. The last shot we see of him is him looking around in panic as his cockpit spins around him. That is it. When ANH came out this was the last you saw of Darth Vader.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:24
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