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Sir Lemming posted:The prequels were all about self-importance. Lucas was obviously aware that Star Wars was considered important, but perhaps didn't grasp the exact nature of its importance. It was important in a meta way, because of its moment in film history. The plot itself was nothing special; it was just a good movie with good characters, moments, art direction, and action scenes. The Star Wars prequels barely have any plot. They have more plot than the originals, but that's unavoidable given the nature of the story they need to tell. And the first two prequels are still quite light on plot compared to most other movies. The vast, vast majority of the actual plot of the prequel trilogy is contained in Episode III, and Episode III remains the most highly-rated prequel. So clearly that's not what audiences were reacting against. And it's not as if Lucas had no idea he was making different sorts of movies from the originals. He's been saying exactly how the prequels would differ from the originals for a long, long time before he actually made them. From here: quote:L.A Herald Examiner- August 21, 1980 Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 18:16
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Vintersorg posted:If you don't get slightly aroused at the sight of Adam Driver then I don't know what to say. I'm hard right now Guys I watched this for the third time yesterday, movie is still awesomesauce. I love it. A small easter egg that seems to be ignored by everyone, but I'm sure everyone noticed when they're sneaking around on not-Death Star and the troopers running to find them say "we think they may be splitting up..." in exactly the same cadence and tone as the delivery in ANH, and with exactly the same context. And right after the "have you seen the new so-and-so thinger." My friends loved the whole thing. Yay Star Wars!
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Dec 24, 2015 18:52
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one thing I notice from a rewatch is the falcon have a new dish, since the old one got knocked off in the battle for endor. but I don't get why people are mad about people thinking Kylo is nonthreating since that is what the movie is going for, he trying to come off as big bad ordering to slughter a village, choking his men, but deep down he is a kid playing dress up. and that why he is a great villain, there is more to be a great villain then being badass. Cyron fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 18:58
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Well I'm trying to differentiate "plot" from "story". I feel the prequels are plot-focused movies in the sense that giving a large-scale summary of the events that happen in the movies is essentially the same thing as watching them. Because there's practically no "story" created by focusing on the characters' actions and reactions. The plot is the story. (Maybe "backstory" is a better word than "plot" here.) The plot making absolutely no sense, of course, is where this definitively becomes a problem. I'm not suggesting George accidentally made a different type of movie. He wanted to create a weighty, Tolkien-esque mythology. He just wasn't good at it.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:01
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Cnut the Great posted:The Star Wars prequels barely have any plot. They have more plot than the originals, but that's unavoidable given the nature of the story they need to tell. And the first two prequels are still quite light on plot compared to most other movies. The vast, vast majority of the actual plot of the prequel trilogy is contained in Episode III, and Episode III remains the most highly-rated prequel. So clearly that's not what audiences were reacting against. I'm not sure how you could have come to this conclusion. Phantom Menace has no fewer than four plot lines intercut in its finale, and Clones follows two lines like Empire. Both visit more than the standard three locations per OT movie.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:07
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Sir Lemming posted:No Star Wars movie can ever be as "important" as the first one. It's just not possible. At the time, nobody had ever seen anything like it before. But what about Empire?
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Dec 24, 2015 19:08
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm not sure how you could have come to this conclusion. Phantom Menace has no fewer than four plot lines intercut in its finale, and Clones follows two lines like Empire. Both visit more than the standard three locations per OT movie. Naboo, Tatooine, Coruscant, ???
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Dec 24, 2015 19:09
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Okay, Clones. I was thinking of spaceships as a place but I guess they don't count.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:14
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:The entire political arrangement makes very little sense despite being an important part of the film. Delusional left-fascists fighting the aristocratic old guard of a complacent liberal democracy -- which, in the brief seconds that it appears in the film, are shown through imagery to be an actual restoration of the Old Republic, with the structural flaws that implies. Who are the good guys here, really? What are they fighting for? It's made pretty clear: the Rebels of the OT do not control the galaxy. Rebels control a few planets from the OT, with a decapitated Empire having entered a peace treaty with the Rebels (because at this point the Rebels have blown up two death stars, two space killwizards, and shrugged off two full-force ambush attacks). First Order are not the Empire. There is a reason First Order explicitly differentiates themselves aesthetically in every uniform, armor, and vehicle from Empire. Again: Empire: ineffectual milquetoast husk of what was a fascist dictatorship, controls most planets loosely. Those "few seconds" are of Empire planets, not resistance. Neutral force. Resistance: more organized Rebels from OT. Do not control every planet. Resistance-friendly planets shown to be pretty nice places to be. Good guys. First Order: the KKK to the Empire's Free South. Murderous, use child soldiers, dont give a poo poo about anything but taking over the Empire and returning to a fascist, racist dictatorship. Bad Guys. Empire is neutral because all they do in the film is get their military-reinforced planets blown up. Resistance is good guys because they treat people well and are composed of unequivocally Good Characters. First Order is bad because they blew up relatively peaceful and uninvolved planets because they and their child soldiers want to be The New Empire. What part of this is so confusing? I've seen the film all of once three days ago and I still got it.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:25
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This shouldn't be bothering me as much as it does, but you'd expect a forum full of hyper-subtext-reading nerds to you know, pay attention.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:27
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:The entire political arrangement makes very little sense despite being an important part of the film. Delusional left-fascists fighting the aristocratic old guard of a complacent liberal democracy -- which, in the brief seconds that it appears in the film, are shown through imagery to be an actual restoration of the Old Republic, with the structural flaws that implies. Who are the good guys here, really? What are they fighting for? This is what I took away from from Luke's exile, his disillusionment with what their victory was achieving. Both the Resistance/Republic and the First Order seemed to lack major/popular support, the Republic has about 5 planets under its dominion if I remember right. Despite 30 years passing no one is rushing to support either.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:29
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Cyron posted:one thing I notice from a rewatch is the falcon have a new dish, since the old one got knocked off in the battle for endor. He's threatening in a different way than Vader or Maul. Mostly everyone in this thread gets that. What we were arguing against was the few who were saying that him being a "non-threat" made him a bad or ineffectual villain.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:34
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I thought Kylo was sad. Not like, pathetic sad, but Adam Driver did a really good job portraying the inner conflict and desperate self loathing and I wanted Kylo to quit hating himself so much because it's an awful feeling. So next movie will be interesting because I really think he is going to mentally destroy himself trying to make up for his loss to Rey at the end and goddamn Oscar Isaac is dreamy. and can play guitar and sing. 
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Dec 24, 2015 19:49
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Neurolimal posted:Empire is neutral because all they do in the film is get their military-reinforced planets blown up.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:52
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:Are you sure you were paying attention? The planet that was destroyed was the capital of the (New) Republic. The Empire, or what was left of it outside the First Order, was not seen in the film. I assume it's a separate entity, considering the military force of The Resistance consists of a whopping five ships, and Finn acted like mentioning The Resistance on Jakku was a horrible thing to do. It's entirely possible that The New Republic is the result of the Empire losing its Emperor; if you are to believe the PT are canon, power should travel back to the ineffectual republic chambers.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:57
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Havelock Ellis posted:This is what I took away from from Luke's exile, his disillusionment with what their victory was achieving. Both the Resistance/Republic and the First Order seemed to lack major/popular support, the Republic has about 5 planets under its dominion if I remember right. Despite 30 years passing no one is rushing to support either. Pretty sure he left because he tried to train his nephew/best friend's son and ended up having his old family issues come back to gently caress it all up.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:07
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Augus posted:But what about Empire? Another great example (the best, to be sure) of the right way to follow up a movie like Star Wars. I just wouldn't consider it as "important" even though it's a better movie. But that's really inconsequential, since it was in the same time period.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:08
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Augus posted:Pretty sure he left because he tried to train his nephew/best friend's son and ended up having his old family issues come back to gently caress it all up. It turns out that Jedi training can have a bad effect on people, who knew.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:11
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Neurolimal posted:I assume it's a separate entity, considering the military force of The Resistance consists of a whopping five ships, and Finn acted like mentioning The Resistance on Jakku was a horrible thing to do. It's entirely possible that The New Republic is the result of the Empire losing its Emperor; if you are to believe the PT are canon, power should travel back to the ineffectual republic chambers. Slashfilm did a writeup of 25 things that kind of covers this:
Rest of the tidbits here: http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-the-force-awakens-questions/ there's some really great info that'll catch you up to speed on the state of things and the lore.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:15
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So, has the EU cruft started to accumulate yet? They jettisoned all of that stuff for the new trilogy, but are there comics depicting Unkar Plutt's childhood, or short stories about Traitor Trooper, or a novel-length Wookieepedia entry for rathtars yet?
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Dec 24, 2015 20:19
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Thats a pretty cool and understandable summary, and it doesn't conflict with reading that there are three entities at play; the peaceful and neutral New Republic, the old-guard Rebels/Resistance continuing to push back at Empire control, and the First Order.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:21
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Phylodox posted:So, has the EU cruft started to accumulate yet? They jettisoned all of that stuff for the new trilogy, but are there comics depicting Unkar Plutt's childhood, or short stories about Traitor Trooper, or a novel-length Wookieepedia entry for rathtars yet? There's 6 novels out, plus some ongoing comics.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:21
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Sir Lemming posted:Another great example (the best, to be sure) of the right way to follow up a movie like Star Wars. I just wouldn't consider it as "important" even though it's a better movie. But that's really inconsequential, since it was in the same time period. Eh it's pretty important, it pretty much coined the modern action movie sequel, and it also created the expanded mythos that made Star Wars such a long-lasting thing. Both movies are landmarks of cinema for sure. jivjov posted:There's 6 novels out, plus some ongoing comics. And the Rebels TV series (which is quite good) Augus fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 20:27
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jivjov posted:There's 6 novels out, plus some ongoing comics. There's also a (really bland with squandered potential) phone game called Uprising which deals with the immediate fallout of the Emperor dying and the Death Star 2 being destroyed (they lock down all the planets and claim the rebels got punked) IIRC the comics also reveal Lando's daughter? Or tease it?
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Dec 24, 2015 20:31
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Phylodox posted:So, has the EU cruft started to accumulate yet? They jettisoned all of that stuff for the new trilogy, but are there comics depicting Unkar Plutt's childhood, or short stories about Traitor Trooper, or a novel-length Wookieepedia entry for rathtars yet? The big guy with the robot arms dragging the junk was actually the original designer of the star killer base but they kicked him out because he messed up the plans to the garbage smashers allowing captain plasma to escape because it turns out she's actually the daughter of the guy who tried to steal bb8 from Rey but he owes robot arms guy money because he helped han solo plant the tracker on the falcon since it turns out the bread they eat on jakku is ground up sand worms and gently caress you Disney for destroying my favorite novel about the space seahorse who is immune to all the force powers so he's actually the guy that Darth platypus used to forge the one ring am I doing this right
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Dec 24, 2015 20:34
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MisterBibs posted:I'm not the one being dishonest about the movie we're discussing. I get it, TFA having a pathetic non-threatening bad guy is one of the ways TFA is different than ANH, requiring the invention of "Kylo is ~so threatening, fer shure you guys~" reading so it fully mimics ANH to suit you, but it's not supported in the movie we got. Great movie, bad guy about as good at creating tension as that "I'll get you next time, Gadget!" dude whose name I'm blanking on. the cgi dude was bad but isn't as bad as the prequels because it isn't shot entirely in george lucas's bluescreen hellscape
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Dec 24, 2015 20:37
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Also, I and plenty of other posters have mentioned being unimpressed with Snoke, so...
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Dec 24, 2015 20:42
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I still haven't really seen the movie yet, but the thing that bothered me leading up to the movie, which now seems to be confirmed, is that rather than continuing to be "cyclical" it sounds out-and-out regressive. Every single thing the characters in the OT fought for and most of their development as characters is gone, just so the new characters can be more important. It sounds like Luke failed to restore and reform the Jedi Order, Han went back to not having any people or a cause he cares about, Leia is cut off from all of her loved ones even though much of her arc was about letting herself have human feelings in spite of her commitment to the Rebellion, and the democracy they all fought to restore has been perfunctorily destroyed. There's a difference between things that rhyme like poetry and regressing everything so that the new characters they're pushing can be the ones who REALLY make a difference and so they can imitate the older movies. I'm surprised I haven't seen more people unhappy with this choice.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:42
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There are a few bits in the visual dictionary too. They clearly filmed a senate scene, and you very briefly see leias envoy to the Senate in the final film before she explodes. Basically there is a ceasefire/disarmament agreement with the empire, everyone kind of knows the first order is militarising but don't acknowledge the threat so leia forms the resistance to fight them outside of repuvlic territory which doesn't have formal approval (hence hux talking about the republics lies I guess) Leia gets enough proof of the order rearming and sends her envoy to the Senate but she explodes because it's too late. Interesting thing about the new senate - the reason it's not on coruscating is that mon mother decides the Senate host will rotate every few years. I really wish we had seen that scene. The aliens are boss, like a posh cantina scene.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:45
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How much cocaine has Carrie Fisher used in her lifetime
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Dec 24, 2015 20:47
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Smoking Crow posted:How much cocaine has Carrie Fisher used in her lifetime Remember Hoth?
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Dec 24, 2015 20:56
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I wonder how long Kylo will have his helmet on for in the next movie before we see his scar.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:59
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Cyron posted:but I don't get why people are mad about people thinking Kylo is nonthreating since that is what the movie is going for, he trying to come off as big bad ordering to slughter a village, choking his men, but deep down he is a kid playing dress up. and that why he is a great villain, there is more to be a great villain then being badass. Nobody is mad, they're just aware that the word "threatening" includes things that aren't "badass."
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Dec 24, 2015 21:01
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korusan posted:I wonder how long Kylo will have his helmet on for in the next movie before we see his scar. Maybe he'll get some cool half helmet thing like this guy:  [edit] Here's a screencap instead of concept art from the MMO game: 
teagone fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 21:02
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teagone posted:Maybe he'll get some cool half helmet thing like this guy: That design is okay but it's really hard for me to take anything from that awful game seriously.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:04
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gently caress I wish that game was good. I was so invested in it until I played it. It taught me never to buy MMOs or special editions on launch, ever.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:16
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Steve2911 posted:gently caress I wish that game was good. I was so invested in it until I played it. I just want Galaxies or something similar back. I'm sick of video game companies treading on old good universes and stories. TOR is such an abomination of Star Wars. They didn't even pay money for any of the original music.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:30
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After watching this a second time with the family, I really have to say that so many things from cinematography to editing to shot composition and what I guess could be called mis-en-scene, pacing, aesthetic and lighting and even just the general 'tone' of the whole thing, really, seems exactly like a Marvel movie. On a raw stylistic level there really doesn't seem to be anything separating this from the 3-4 other soulless capeshit flicks Disney pumps out each year.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:31
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Steve2911 posted:gently caress I wish that game was good. I was so invested in it until I played it. WoW was good at launch and it kept getting better until everyone quit
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Dec 24, 2015 21:31
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teagone posted:Maybe he'll get some cool half helmet thing like this guy: So this is a droid with a human skin get up?
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Dec 24, 2015 21:35
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