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ikanreed posted:That's not to say there are no rabidly anti-nuclear greenies. Oh there are, but they don't petition very strongly. At least not in my hippie city, and ive been petitioned about microwaving water kills Bees. People who don't know any better and see the Chernobyl helicopter video on YouTube which says 'everyone in this film and the ones taking the video all died shortly afterwards.' don't need to talk to rabid environmentalists to form a negative opinion.
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Dec 18, 2015 22:44
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Theres been a bit of an oopsie in southern california, if you consider hundreds of thousands of pounds of methane leaking from the ground to be "a bit of an oopsie."
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Dec 24, 2015 02:02
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Why is coal power still in use? Usually inertia.
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Dec 24, 2015 02:24
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computer parts posted:Usually inertia. That and a handful of rich guys deciding they really, really like the coal profits they're getting and spend money making sure the coal money faucet stays on.
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Dec 24, 2015 06:45
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ToxicSlurpee posted:That and a handful of rich guys deciding they really, really like the coal profits they're getting and spend money making sure the coal money faucet stays on. Eh, the coal industry isn't exactly making big (or any) profits anymore...its more that these rich guys/companies know the time is up but they don't want to pay the bill. If you're a smart rich fucker your money is not in coal.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:46
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Trabisnikof posted:Eh, the coal industry isn't exactly making big (or any) profits anymore...its more that these rich guys/companies know the time is up but they don't want to pay the bill. Yeah, like I said it's inertia. It's cheaper right now to keep what you've got and run it until it breaks down, rather than investing in any sort of upgrades. If we're starting from ground zero, very few people are going to build a coal plant (and no one is going to build a coal plant like a lot of the ones currently in existence because they're only grandfathered in).
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Dec 24, 2015 17:42
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computer parts posted:Yeah, like I said it's inertia. It's cheaper right now to keep what you've got and run it until it breaks down, rather than investing in any sort of upgrades. China and Japan appear to disagree with you on that one. What you're saying is definitely true in the US, but America isn't the whole world.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:54
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Inglonias posted:China and Japan appear to disagree with you on that one. Japan is specifically doing that because they're being dumbasses about nuclear power and realized too late that they're too far north to generate solar power.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:30
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computer parts posted:Japan is specifically doing that because they're being dumbasses about nuclear power and realized too late that they're too far north to generate solar power. It doesn't matter why they're doing it. In terms of carbon emissions, its the same result - more coal plants.
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Dec 25, 2015 07:11
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Inglonias posted:It doesn't matter why they're doing it. Actually, it kinda does, especially looking at the long term trends.
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Dec 25, 2015 07:23
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Squalid posted:I hate to join this horrible argument but in the United States Environmental Nonprofits easily mobilize 10,000s of people funded by hundreds of millions of dollars and while they may not have a huge role in setting national energy policy they are definitely important at local scales. I'm gonna say they absolutely do not mobilize "hundreds of millions of dollars" (lol) for anything even tangentially related to anti-nuclear campaigns. Please provide evidence if you disagree.
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Dec 25, 2015 07:39
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Why would I provide evidence for something I didn't say or even imply?
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Dec 25, 2015 19:14
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Inglonias posted:Theres been a bit of an oopsie in southern california, if you consider hundreds of thousands of pounds of methane leaking from the ground to be "a bit of an oopsie." two months running its amazing how stuff like this and the coal ash pond spills barely even register. just imagine how much worse it was in equador and is in nigeria.
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Dec 26, 2015 05:43
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StabbinHobo posted:two months running but  atomzbut environmentalist freedom hating librulz
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Dec 26, 2015 09:19
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:but What does that have anything to do with the fact that an invisible gas leak or a coal ash spill that's only directly affecting one (usually very poor) community doesn't make great news? If that gas leak ignites....that'll be on CNN 24/7. But until then, I think blaming capitalism is the correct go-to d&d jerkoff response here
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Dec 26, 2015 09:26
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Trabisnikof posted:What does that have anything to do with the fact that an invisible gas leak or a coal ash spill that's only directly affecting one (usually very poor) community doesn't make great news? That it's either not scary because it doesn't have enough scary buzzwords or not worth caring about because good red-blooded muricans are not pinko lieberals that care about dumb things like pollution.
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Dec 26, 2015 09:46
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Trabisnikof posted:What does that have anything to do with the fact that an invisible gas leak or a coal ash spill that's only directly affecting one (usually very poor) community doesn't make great news? Pollution and accidents caused by fossil fuels are so common they aren't newsworthy. Nuclear meltdowns are so rare they're extremely newsworthy. Think about the comparison between car crashes and plane crashes. Planes don't crash very often so every time they do it ends up on the news. Car crashes only end up on the news if they're exceptionally bad and even then it's pretty brief. But if a plane crashes nobody shuts the gently caress up about it. Same thing here; if a nuclear plant has problems it's all over the news for a long time but if there's another problem relating to a coal plant there's probably like a dozen of those already happening so nobody cares.
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Dec 26, 2015 10:02
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Pollution and accidents caused by fossil fuels are so common they aren't newsworthy. Nuclear meltdowns are so rare they're extremely newsworthy. See, that's a constructive and thoughtful take on why some risks and impacts are heavily downplayed by the media. However, I think if this gas leak was visible it would have huge media coverage. The location is close enough to LA to make it easy for every lazy news agency to stick a camera on, but since there is nothing to see there is nothing to report. The plume is big enough to divert airplanes, imagine if we could see it!
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Dec 26, 2015 10:45
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Think about the comparison between car crashes and plane crashes. Planes don't crash very often so every time they do it ends up on the news. Car crashes only end up on the news if they're exceptionally bad and even then it's pretty brief. But if a plane crashes nobody shuts the gently caress up about it. Same thing here; if a nuclear plant has problems it's all over the news for a long time but if there's another problem relating to a coal plant there's probably like a dozen of those already happening so nobody cares. Case in point: air pollution in China. Smog takes its toll on Chinese city dwellers, with researchers saying 1.6 million died this year because of pollution. 17% of all deaths in China. Edit: I hear airplanes were grounded at Beijing's airport because of the smog yesterday.
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Dec 26, 2015 11:13
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There's actually a very large and growing movement in China to address the smog. It's more equivalent to how much of a problem Tobacco smoking was here and how it look a lot of effort to have everyone finally say "yeah we all hate it, let's do something about it".
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Dec 26, 2015 16:52
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Yeah, true. I was thinking about it mostly in terms of what Toxic Slurpee said about media coverage. It's a problem that's acknowledged but it's literally something that happens everyday, not a sudden event like with Fukushima or the explosion in Tianjin. So it's not shown in the news in the same way, especially abroad.
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Dec 26, 2015 18:40
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Why is coal power still in use? 
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Dec 26, 2015 18:48
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The continued insistence that the green party has no effect whatsoever on Nuclear power is bewildering, there's all sorts of examples to show why they are a significant contributor to more plants not being built. Germany is the obvious example but it happens everywhere. gently caress the greens, their supporters are worthless morons on nearly every issue. achillesforever6 posted:Because don't you care about coal miners, they obviously are too stupid to do anything else other than mine coal It's actually very difficult to switch over a workforce that big and completely reform an economy. What other industry are they going to move on to in coal country, exactly? What are their skills transferable to? Sorry, but this isn't civ 5- you don't just flip a switch and all your coal miners become nuclear engineers; in the real world you actually have to think a little bit.
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Dec 26, 2015 20:58
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:It's actually very difficult to switch over a workforce that big and completely reform an economy. What other industry are they going to move on to in coal country, exactly? What are their skills transferable to? Sorry, but this isn't civ 5- you don't just flip a switch and all your coal miners become nuclear engineers; in the real world you actually have to think a little bit. It also doesn't help that some of the regions coal mining is popular in are poverty-stricken hell holes desperate for anything at all that creates jobs. West Virginia comes to mind; the place is completely in the shitter economically so when coal says "hey let us wreck your state and we'll bring jobs" they say "OK." Now you have a bunch of people reliant on the coal industry that would like it very much if you didn't take their jobs away, thank you.
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Dec 26, 2015 22:30
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Up until now every post supported my primary point. With respect to coal miners, gently caress that job, I don't care. We shouldn't be concerned about that, we should have social welfare programs that allow anyone in a dead industry to transition into a productive and useful job, rather than propping up industries that are fundamentally detrimental to progress. I would hope that the US has enough compassion to allow support for labor, but failing that, it is better for the coal industry to die than to protect that subset of laborers, much like I don't shed tears for the military contractors who go out of business if we aren't in perpetual war.
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Dec 26, 2015 22:38
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Up until now every post supported my primary point. With respect to coal miners, gently caress that job, I don't care. We shouldn't be concerned about that, we should have social welfare programs that allow anyone in a dead industry to transition into a productive and useful job, rather than propping up industries that are fundamentally detrimental to progress. I would hope that the US has enough compassion to allow support for labor, but failing that, it is better for the coal industry to die than to protect that subset of laborers, much like I don't shed tears for the military contractors who go out of business if we aren't in perpetual war. That would be communism. Take that poo poo to Russia. Oh wait you can't because communism failed there. The obvious answer is to keep on drilling.
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Dec 26, 2015 22:43
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The Soviet block was renowned for its environmental protection and clean energy generation. Also, Maggie Thatcher was an environmentalist visionary. ~ an eco-leftist TYOOL 2015.
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Dec 27, 2015 05:36
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Up until now every post supported my primary point. With respect to coal miners, gently caress that job, I don't care. We shouldn't be concerned about that, we should have social welfare programs that allow anyone in a dead industry to transition into a productive and useful job, rather than propping up industries that are fundamentally detrimental to progress. I would hope that the US has enough compassion to allow support for labor, but failing that, it is better for the coal industry to die than to protect that subset of laborers, much like I don't shed tears for the military contractors who go out of business if we aren't in perpetual war. What you propose is going to require a large amount of population shifting, and as the recent refugee crisis has shown, that will lead to a large amount of pain and misery.
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Dec 27, 2015 06:06
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:The continued insistence that the green party has no effect whatsoever on Nuclear power is bewildering, there's all sorts of examples to show why they are a significant contributor to more plants not being built. Germany is the obvious example but it happens everywhere. gently caress the greens, their supporters are worthless morons on nearly every issue. also Belgium, where the population actually doesn't have a hate boner for nuclear power and it took greens in government to get a nuclear exit plan eigenstate posted:The Soviet block was renowned for its environmental protection and clean energy generation. Also, Maggie Thatcher was an environmentalist visionary. hmmm no but neither will green government lead to effective environmental protection~ (green parties are useful to provide a voice that points out we should do something about the environment, but are not useful when it comes to making effective environmental policy)
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Dec 27, 2015 12:06
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Up until now every post supported my primary point. With respect to coal miners, gently caress that job, I don't care. We shouldn't be concerned about that, we should have social welfare programs that allow anyone in a dead industry to transition into a productive and useful job, rather than propping up industries that are fundamentally detrimental to progress. I would hope that the US has enough compassion to allow support for labor, but failing that, it is better for the coal industry to die than to protect that subset of laborers, much like I don't shed tears for the military contractors who go out of business if we aren't in perpetual war. Now hold up, I don't think that to stop loving the Earth up we need to go full-blown socialist. Also, you don't seem to grasp the impact of destroying a major and localized industry. The coal miner doesn't bring money home - fine. He doesn't pay rent or buy nick nacks at the market. Let's say he's fed and comfortable for the time, however. So, since the coal miners are all basically supporting the city, the bars, toy stores, pretty much everything but essentials fail, one by one, the process accelerates as there be more jobless people and less money in the city. Eventually you have a loving city of unemployed people except the cashier at the grocery store. But this isn't just one city, it's happening all over the country, by your wishes. Even if it doesn't happen all at once, it would be devastating to us all. I'm not saying this excuses inaction but it does warrant attention.
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Dec 28, 2015 18:45
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It's interesting, because there have been small-scale attempts to start to transition coal towns away from being single-industry and it's opposed at every level by the coal companies themselves and politicians. It seems these places are destined to go the way of the rust belt, with nothing cushioning the fall.
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Dec 28, 2015 18:51
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Lotka Volterra posted:It's interesting, because there have been small-scale attempts to start to transition coal towns away from being single-industry and it's opposed at every level by the coal companies themselves and politicians. Its kind of difficult, since most of the towns are buried in niche communities that made their entire living off of the mine, and maybe some small mom and pop shops. Its not the first time this has happened, the Appalachia is covered in small, dead towns that dried up as soon as the coal mines left or the railroad stopped coming by. Whitwell, Tennessee where my wife grew up was a largely coal town, the mine closed in 1997. The town is still there, but its mostly retirees and those who cannot afford to leave.
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Dec 28, 2015 18:56
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Lotka Volterra posted:It's interesting, because there have been small-scale attempts to start to transition coal towns away from being single-industry and it's opposed at every level by the coal companies themselves and politicians. Which attempts are you referring to?
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Dec 28, 2015 19:18
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computer parts posted:Which attempts are you referring to? There have been relatively recent attempts to build wind farms in the Appalachians that got shitcanned due to conflicts with the coal companies, and I know of quite a few other diversification efforts that have seen a lot of resistance and/or failed due to the same problem. A specific instance was the Coal River Mountain Wind project. As far as I'm aware, sustainable forestry initiatives have hit the same problem where coal companies are looking to do mountain top removal. Aves Maria! fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 19:41
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That's one of the really annoying things about Minnesota state politics. Two of our huge left wing blocks are labor and environmental, and lots of the labor is north in the Iron Range. Anytime there is a new mining/big construction project in the north (especially close to the boundary waters) it pits the metro area environmentalists against the northern labor block and we all suffer for it.
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Dec 28, 2015 19:46
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CommieGIR posted:Its kind of difficult, since most of the towns are buried in niche communities that made their entire living off of the mine, and maybe some small mom and pop shops. Its not the first time this has happened, the Appalachia is covered in small, dead towns that dried up as soon as the coal mines left or the railroad stopped coming by. I'm from the heart of Oil Country and let me tell you this is pretty much spot on. The refineries, the wells, and the businesses all left and took the money with them. Some people were just too stubborn to leave; others were retired and just wanted to live quietly where they were until they died. Others couldn't afford to leave. Some managed to cling to some job or another but once the big oil corporations picked up and left the area was hosed. This is a common story of the Rust Belt. Look at a place like Pittsburgh. The steel industry left and the city was very harshly dicked over in the process. The response to the working class asking "well what are we going to do?" was "who cares? That's your problem not mine." The county I'm originally from ended up with desperate people doing desperate things. Seemed I couldn't go a week without hearing "so and so got picked up for drug dealing/running." Sometimes it was "again." And what could they do, really? There aren't a lot of jobs. Those that do exist pay complete garbage and the companies that are hiring will exploit the hell out of you because they can. Forcing people to work off the clock, paying minimum wage with no benefits and no raises ever, union busting...all that crap. But what can you do? You got kids to feed, yo and if you get fired you don't get unemployment. Oh and it's an at will employment state by the way so that means they can fire you for any drat reason they please.
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Dec 28, 2015 20:02
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I'm from the heart of Oil Country and let me tell you this is pretty much spot on. The refineries, the wells, and the businesses all left and took the money with them. Some people were just too stubborn to leave; others were retired and just wanted to live quietly where they were until they died. Others couldn't afford to leave. Some managed to cling to some job or another but once the big oil corporations picked up and left the area was hosed. Yeah, there are multiple towns up and down Tennessee, Virginia and even Georgia that are basically graveyard with some retirees still clinging on. After the mines left, there was no fallback job.
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Dec 28, 2015 20:15
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I'm from the heart of Oil Country and let me tell you this is pretty much spot on. The refineries, the wells, and the businesses all left and took the money with them. Some people were just too stubborn to leave; others were retired and just wanted to live quietly where they were until they died. Others couldn't afford to leave. Some managed to cling to some job or another but once the big oil corporations picked up and left the area was hosed.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:06
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achillesforever6 posted:Yeah Pittsburgh was hosed once the mills closed in the 70s and it took until the 90s for the city to reinvent itself by going into the medical,high tech, and educational industries. And it still isn't doing all that well. But then the rest of the state is completely and utterly in the shitter so Pittsburgh doing better than "loving awful" says a lot. Funny thing is governor Corbett was all like "Imma get voters some jobs, voters like jobs" and ended up with one of the absolute worst recovery rates after the financial meltdown in the nation. He basically did some favors for Shell which got a few jobs but not all that many. Really he seemed to want to buddy up close to the oil industry which is currently loving hated in the state. Fracking isn't all that popular either but it's all over and here to stay, apparently. In any case he was all "fossil fuels, gently caress yeah!" while blaming the unemployed for being unemployed and cutting their benefits. All told Pennsylvania is about all you need to look at to get an idea of how awful the fossil fuel industry is. They'll suck everything dry then leave and be all like "welp, gotta go, good luck not starving to death" to the people that actually did the work. Now the state is dealing with the leftovers. Read about what coal mining does some time. Acid mine drainage is a massive problem in a lot of areas. You end up with streams that are literally orange and entirely devoid of life because so much acid runs into them. But hey man, jobs!!!!! The really interesting thing about Corbett is that he's the first governor in the history of the state to fail at getting reelected.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:17
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In other news, the Arctic is going to go above freezing for awhile... in winter:quote:Warm Arctic Storm To Hurl Hurricane Force Winds at UK and Iceland, Push Temps to 72+ Degrees (F) Above Normal at North Pole This weekend was pretty crazy, but holy poo poo. Also, the cold air has to go somewhere... the U.S. gets some of it! Take a look at stuff right now. Evil_Greven fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 01:48
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