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Shimrra Jamaane posted:The EU was trying to do some really neat stuff with the nature of the force during The New Jedi Order series. It basically ends with the Jedi understanding that the force isn't split into two distinct moral types but is actually a lot more nuanced. Hence The Unifying Force. But a couple years later noted hack Troy Denning ruined literally everything. Eh. That was honestly pretty lame. It was attempting to inject a sense of moral ambiguity and greyness into an energy force which amounts to God and Satan. It was the book fanfiction version of going "maybe I can use the evil powers of darkness, but for good!" You can do that kind of story but probably not in Star Wars where the Dark Side literally turns your eyes an evil shade of yellow and leads to spiritual and seemingly inevitably physical decay. I do think there's room for the idea that the light isn't synonymous with the Jedi. The Force Awakens even plays with that by using Maz who is not a Jedi but is very in-tune with the light side of the force. I just think trying to go "I can use Force LIghtning and Force Choke people but in a heroic way" feels like lazy writing. Troy Denning is terrible but the idea that a guy convinces himself he can be morally grey and doesn't have to adhere to the light because he has good intentions and ends up falling is pretty interesting if you execute it well.
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Dec 27, 2015 00:55
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ImpAtom posted:Eh. That was honestly pretty lame. It was attempting to inject a sense of moral ambiguity and greyness into an energy force which amounts to God and Satan. It was the book fanfiction version of going "maybe I can use the evil powers of darkness, but for good!" You can do that kind of story but probably not in Star Wars where the Dark Side literally turns your eyes an evil shade of yellow and leads to spiritual and seemingly inevitably physical decay. Troy Denning is still a garbage pervert though.
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Dec 27, 2015 00:57
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Troy Denning is still a garbage pervert though. Oh yes absolutely.
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Dec 27, 2015 00:57
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ImpAtom posted:Eh. That was honestly pretty lame. It was attempting to inject a sense of moral ambiguity and greyness into an energy force which amounts to God and Satan. It was the book fanfiction version of going "maybe I can use the evil powers of darkness, but for good!" You can do that kind of story but probably not in Star Wars where the Dark Side literally turns your eyes an evil shade of yellow and leads to spiritual and seemingly inevitably physical decay. The dark side doesn't do that, because Vader and Ren and Dooku all have normal eyes and are undecayed. Only Palpatine and Snoke have that going on.
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Dec 27, 2015 00:57
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Effectronica posted:The dark side doesn't do that, because Vader and Ren and Dooku all have normal eyes and are undecayed. Only Palpatine and Snoke have that going on. 
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Dec 27, 2015 00:59
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I love this because it is ambiguous. It could just be the landscape reflected in his eyes. But the landscape is also a metaphor for the turmoil of his emotions! Ah! The pt. so good.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:00
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euphronius posted:I love this because it is ambiguous. It could just be the landscape reflected in his eyes. But the landscape is also a metaphor for the turmoil of his emotions! Ah! The pt. so good. It's not, Lucas specifically explained thoes eyes in detail 10 years ago.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:02
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euphronius posted:I love this because it is ambiguous. It could just be the landscape reflected in his eyes. But the landscape is also a metaphor for the turmoil of his emotions! Ah! The pt. so good. It's pretty clearly Sith eyes.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:03
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And when we next see his eyes, they're normal. The evidence points to being an evil motherfucker as the root cause, rather than use of the dark.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:04
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Effectronica posted:And when we next see his eyes, they're normal. The evidence points to being an evil motherfucker as the root cause, rather than use of the dark. I don't mean this to sound sarcastic but is there really a difference between using the dark side and being an evil motherfucker? At very least it seems like it's connected to both being an evil motherfucker and using the Force.  Maul has them too but he is also a weird alien so that could just be how his dudes look.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:07
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CelticPredator posted:It's pretty clearly Sith eyes. Yeah exactly !!
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Dec 27, 2015 01:08
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He got sith eyes when he was burning and screaming "I HATE YOUUUU"
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Dec 27, 2015 01:08
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Oh wait does he get sith eyes on Coruscant.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:09
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I though he got them because Obi Wan kept farting on his pillow?
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Dec 27, 2015 01:09
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CelticPredator posted:He got sith eyes when he was burning and screaming "I HATE YOUUUU" The delivery of that line cracks me up every time.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:11
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CelticPredator posted:He got sith eyes when he was burning and screaming "I HATE YOUUUU" I guess the intent is perhaps that you only get the eyes when you've gone far beyond redemption? Which might explain why Anakin goes back and forth, Dooku doesn't have them, and neither does Ren. (Yeah, I'm the dude who thinks Ren is going to have a redemption plot of some kind even despite murdering Han Solo.)
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Dec 27, 2015 01:12
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ImpAtom posted:I guess the intent is perhaps that you only get the eyes when you've gone far beyond redemption? Which might explain why Anakin goes back and forth, Dooku doesn't have them, and neither does Ren. They'd have to come up with another villain.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:12
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ImpAtom posted:I don't mean this to sound sarcastic but is there really a difference between using the dark side and being an evil motherfucker? At very least it seems like it's connected to both being an evil motherfucker and using the Force. Well, by all the textual evidence, Luke is drawing upon the dark side at the end of Return of the Jedi. But yeah, we're agreeing on it being a sign of irredeemability/going too deep in.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:16
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Is there any reason I missed why they don't bother to hide BB-8 when the gangsters show up on the freighter or in the bar? Really fun movie. Looking forward to more.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:21
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ImpAtom posted:One was obviously a typo and I enjoy how you completely missed the point of the other. Sure there is, just because we don't know what the difference is yet doesn't mean there isn't one, otherwise he would be a Darth like every other star wars villain. By the fact of its very existence it is clearly something different. Edit: We already know a few differences. The Knights of Ren don't follow the rule of two. They have a different knowledge base as evidenced by the fact that the saber Kylo constructed is different than Sith lightsabers and also his force abilities are different than anything we have seen previously. D-Pad fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 01:24
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Perry Normal posted:Is there any reason I missed why they don't bother to hide BB-8 when the gangsters show up on the freighter or in the bar? Han didn't know the First Order had an APB out for all BB units with orange-and-white paint, and at the bar they know the First Order is tracking them, so there's not much point in hiding.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:28
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D-Pad posted:Sure there is, just because we don't know what the difference is yet doesn't mean there isn't one, otherwise he would be a Darth like every other star wars villain. By the fact of its very existence it is clearly something different. You're really focusing more on the "they're technically different" thing instead of the "he fell to the dark side" thing which was the more salient point there. Also that isn't really a case of it being a different knowledge base because Ren's lightsaber is explicitly kind of lovely and made with a broken crystal which needs those vents. The only other information we have is that it's inspired by the "Scourge of Malachor" but considering that Malachor was a KotOR 2 thing that doesn't mean a lot. 
ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 01:30
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ImpAtom posted:You're really focusing more on the "they're technically different" thing instead of the "he fell to the dark side" thing which was the more salient point there. Exactly. The knowledge base of the Sith was destroyed with Vader/Emperor. The Knights of Ren don't have that knowledge, hence he did his best and the result was a poo poo lightsaber. It's a completely different force tradition. One is Zen Buddhism and another is Tibetan. They have a lot of similarities, but a lot of significant differences as well.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:38
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Kylo probably made a lightsaber while still with Luke so he had some knowledge.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:42
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D-Pad posted:Exactly. The knowledge base of the Sith was destroyed with Vader/Emperor. The Knights of Ren don't have that knowledge, hence he did his best and the result was a poo poo lightsaber. We do not actually know anything about the Knights of Ren except that they exist and that Kylo Ren is their Master. We don't actually even know if they're force users or not. It's probably a safe bet they are simply because Ren is part of them but it's a bit early to say we know their deal. In the flashback we saw Ren was the only one wielding a lightsaber and the others had some other kinds of weapons that are pretty hard to make out.  Not to mention that if they're an elite organization of Dark Side dudes it's a little weird that Kylo "still in training" Ren is their Master. However Ren absolutely wants to be like Vader so at very least they're aiming to be like the Sith. It could be just as viable for them to be basically the new version of the Inquisitors seen in the Rebels cartoon as a completely different branch of the dark side order. Supreme Leader Snoke isn't named Darth Snoke but Emperor Palpatine wasn't called Darth Sideous in public and Count Dooku preferred to use his real name instead of Darth Tyrannus so it's a bit early to say he isn't a Sith. And all of thise honestly barely matters because my point was "both the EU and the new films did a plot about Han and Leia's son falling to the dark side." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 01:50
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God, if a loser like Kylo is somehow their master, are Knights of Ren just straight up hypemen with names like Turtle and Drama?
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Dec 27, 2015 01:56
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fatherboxx posted:God, if a loser like Kylo is somehow their master, are Knights of Ren just straight up hypemen with names like Turtle and Drama? Most likely they exist to make the Kylo redemption plot possible, so they'll need to be at least badass enough (along with Snoke) to replace Kylo as main baddie if he gets redeemed. Guessing they're the peer pressure that keeps Kylo needing to be as dark as the darkest dark, and if he gets redeemed he'll need to face them.
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Dec 27, 2015 02:19
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I personally hope Kylo doesn't get redeemed. I hope he kills Snoke and takes his place, and that's how Episode 9 ends.
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Dec 27, 2015 02:44
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May have missed this being mentioned, but after seeing the movie for the second time I don't think Rey has a special bloodline (that we know about). When Maz talks to her after the Force vision she says that Rey knows that going back to Jakku is pointless, because she's waiting for a family that won't return (implying they're dead - this would mean no Luke or Leia relations). Maz then basically says that Luke can take the place of guidance and family she's been missing. I think this helps make the ending scene more powerful, because it shows that she accepts her loss and wants to move forward.
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Dec 27, 2015 02:49
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TheMaestroso posted:When Maz talks to her after the Force vision she says that Rey knows that going back to Jakku is pointless, because she's waiting for a family that won't return (implying they're dead - this would mean no Luke or Leia relations). Also, that family might also be adoptive instead of being her birth parents.
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Dec 27, 2015 02:57
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Does Kylo Ren ever deflect a blaster shot with his lightsaber? I can't recall.
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Dec 27, 2015 03:14
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TheMaestroso posted:May have missed this being mentioned, but after seeing the movie for the second time I don't think Rey has a special bloodline (that we know about). When Maz talks to her after the Force vision she says that Rey knows that going back to Jakku is pointless, because she's waiting for a family that won't return (implying they're dead - this would mean no Luke or Leia relations). Maz then basically says that Luke can take the place of guidance and family she's been missing. I think this helps make the ending scene more powerful, because it shows that she accepts her loss and wants to move forward. IIRC Maz just says "they're not coming back" and the "belonging she's looking for is ahead of her, not behind." Intentionally ambiguous, but yeah, definitely hoping she's not just another Skywalker. We've hit "peak Skywalker" - the galaxy's gotta have more than one really hosed up family with hereditary magic powers.
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Dec 27, 2015 03:15
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Away all Goats posted:Does Kylo Ren ever deflect a blaster shot with his lightsaber? I can't recall. Yes, when he's chasing Rey in the woods before he captures her, she fires multiple shots at him that he deflects. The deflection kind of gets lost in all the noise and smoke of his lovely, jagged lightsaber, and the deflection itself isn't a really flashy move like in the prequels, just kind of a quick jerky motion, blink and it's over. Took note of that since I liked it a lot more than the way they portrayed deflection in the prequels.
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Dec 27, 2015 03:17
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I saw this again today with my mom and grandma. Still like it. The plot holes and nitpicks don't overcome the fact that ultimately, it's an exciting movie with a lot of humor and fun characters. I think it will easily be as enjoyable as the OT movies years from now. Non sci-fi fan Mom thought it was worlds better than the prequels. Grandma thought it was a very topical allegory for ISIS, despite the fact that Mr. Spock never showed up.
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Dec 27, 2015 03:49
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FrancoFish posted:All I said was that I hope they do more with him, rather than making him the token lightsaber black armor guy. I know this was pages ago but gently caress it. Why exactly do you have any reason to doubt this is exactly what they will do in Episodes 8 and 9? He already has a ton of character development in TFA and undoubtedly will continue to be developed. People are just reacting to your hand wringing like it's a concern troll and I don't blame them.
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Dec 27, 2015 04:10
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What plot holes were there? Remember something not explicitly explained in the film is not necessarily a plot hole
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Dec 27, 2015 04:26
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Most of the arguing in this very thread tends to be along the lines of "this is a plot hole" countered by "you missed this bit in the movie".
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Dec 27, 2015 04:47
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hobbesmaster posted:What plot holes were there? Remember something not explicitly explained in the film is not necessarily a plot hole Super death laser planet only being able to shoot twice then its functionally useless is a good start
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Dec 27, 2015 04:59
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ImpAtom posted:Like I'm really confused by what you're arguing here. Our first encounter with Kylo Ren is him capturing and murdering an old man, stopping a plasma bolt in mid air and then torturing information out of a protagonist. He is absolutely not portrayed as a joke and if you're claiming that a protagonist snarking off to him establishes him as one then I'll just point out Leia did the exact same thing to Vader. I worded that really badly. I meant to say having the first line be fearless snark from Poe so early in the movie undermined him much more than Leia did Vader. Like the movie told me off the bat not to worry about discount Revan. Again, I understand what they were going for, i just felt they took it too far too soon. Now as for the second point, I think that's just a difference in how we view your average jedi knight/master, but I'd say the movies support the nigh unkillable jedi since USUALLY the only time a jedi dies/loses in a fair fight is against dark side users, or top tier bounty hunters, outside of being blindsided by 66.
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Dec 27, 2015 05:00
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Ammanas posted:Super death laser planet only being able to shoot twice then its functionally useless is a good start That isn't a plot hole. That may be dumb, however even as a single shot weapon it was quite effective.
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Dec 27, 2015 05:05
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