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MonsieurChoc posted:The movie keeps going on and on about the Light Side, when the Light Side doesn't exist. Obviously it does
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Dec 27, 2015 22:16
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MonsieurChoc posted:Throughout the original six movies, there is no mention of any Light Side. I don't believe they use the phrase Light Side in TFA at all though I could be remembering. They use the phrase 'light' but that's different. Luke tells his father that he still feels the good in him and Leia's own line to Han is a direct mimic of that line. She uses the phrase Light because light is a theme in TFA. When there's light, there is hope. And the light goes out and Han Solo dies. MonsieurChoc posted:The movie keeps going on and on about the Light Side, when the Light Side doesn't exist. When does the movie use the phrase Light side? I really don't remember. I'm willing willing to admit I could be wrong here but I don't remember it. They say things like 'seduced by the light" but that doesn't necessarily mean what you're saying. Think back to Yoda's quote about how everyone is a luminous being.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:16
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PiedPiper posted:When Luke destroys Death Star at the end of ANH, he basically relies on his intuition (well, Ben helped him a bit there). When Rey beats Kylo Ren at the end of TFA, she straight up masters the basics of the Force without anyone telling her how. This makes no sense at all. What is the big difference in a Force-sensitive character "relying on his intuition" to accomplish an unbelievable, thought-impossible task and Rey (whose melee combat abilities are demonstrated with her staff earlier in the film) beating a half-dead idiot in a swordfight?
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Dec 27, 2015 22:16
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I really like Rey, and was fine with her knowledge/skill level in TFA. It does a disservice to say she was good at everything. Somethings do come naturally to her, since she is obviously force sensitive and meant to be the next "big hope" for the galaxy. When we first see her in TFA she is a good engineer, pilot and fighter. People who complain seem to ignore the 15 years she spent getting there while living on her own. She wasn't in a stable family environment and protected by her aunt and uncle. She was on her own and was forced to learn those things on her own to survive. You put Luke in the exact same situation and I'm fairly certain you get the same exact outcome. It ends up speeding up his progress in his problem areas. He gains belief in his capability because he would have made it on his own, and he would have learned how to fight earlier since he wasn't being protected by anyone. And the pilot and engineering skills were already there before. What I'm saying is that Rey was basically thrown into Chosen One boot camp without even being aware of it. Teek fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 22:16
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PiedPiper posted:Yep, there's certainly nothing in between "flawless" and "lovely". Luke makes the shot when he gives himself up to The Force after being urged by Ben. Rey is able to retaliate when she gives herself up to The Force after being urged by Ben.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:17
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ImpAtom posted:I don't believe they use the phrase Light Side in TFA at all though I could be remembering. They use the phrase 'light' but that's different. Luke tells his father that he still feels the good in him and Leia's own line to Han is a direct mimic of that line. She uses the phrase Light because light is a theme in TFA. When there's light, there is hope. And the light goes out and Han Solo dies. Maz uses "light side", as does Rey.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:17
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PiedPiper posted:Yep, there's certainly nothing in between "flawless" and "lovely". She had confidence. She wanted to do it. Luke was always, always hesitant. He was afraid until he confronted Vader. He was unsure of himself. Rey was not.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:17
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http://www.redbubble.com/people/kadabura/works/19899323-tr8-or
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Dec 27, 2015 22:19
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Effectronica posted:Maz uses "light side", as does Rey. Huh, my mistake. Regardless it's a flawed argument because connecting the Force to Light and the dark side to darkness has been a thing throughout the films. The ultimate form of the Jedi training is becoming a literal being of light.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:19
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Myrddin_Emrys posted:Obviously it does Well, now it does, but it didn't before TFA.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:20
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MonsieurChoc posted:Well, now it does, but it didn't before TFA. Your problem is that you've latched onto "space Buddhism" without understanding that Buddhism is the "middle way" and involves avoiding extremes, such as total altruism or total selfishness. The notion that the dark side is evil comes from failing to listen to what Yoda says.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:22
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Re: light side/dark side chat has there ever been a good guy who could wield force lightning?
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Dec 27, 2015 22:22
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None of the characters in any of the SW films are all that deep. People who say Luke was more vulnerable in the ANH than Rey was in TFA are right but we're splitting hairs here. The difference is marginal. Rey owned. gently caress the haters.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:23
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MonsieurChoc posted:Well, now it does, but it didn't before TFA. Including the prequels? I watched 3-6 recently, I could swear somebody talked about the force and made mention of the dark and the light. Maybe not though. Either way, I agree with the idea that this is a bit semantic, if you're not going to the dark side and you're on the other side of the spectrum, calling that light isn't bad. Before they just called it "good" I guess? Saying there's still good in Vader etc. Is "light" any less clear cut than saying "good"?
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Dec 27, 2015 22:23
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MonsieurChoc posted:Well, now it does, but it didn't before TFA. I think it's a bit disingenuous to act like using the phrase "The Light Side" to refer to the counterpart of "The Dark Side" is inherently misunderstanding things and needlessly obfuscates things. There is the Force and it has a Dark Side but thematically even before TFA the opposite of the dark was the light. They don't use Light Side but they specifically refer to them as Good Side and Bad Sad in the films.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:23
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George Lucas posted:Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe... I also found this video where George compares the Dark Side to a cancer.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:24
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hiddenriverninja posted:Re: light side/dark side chat Yoda and Mace Windu are capable of doing it in the prequels, but the real question is why exactly a good person would use a means of torture.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:25
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Effectronica posted:Yoda and Mace Windu are capable of doing it in the prequels, but the real question is why exactly a good person would use a means of torture. Maybe one of the sith jerks planted some bombs and they needed to find out where or something? It's Star Wars, not Star Playground. Luke blew up a blue elephant guy and his band, and a bunch of drunks. Blew 'em to hell.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:27
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Yeah the more skilled "light siders" can use force lighting but choose not to, because it's basically the apex of what the dark side represents: the Force as visual, overt, unfettered power over another living thing, turning it into a loud, dramatic crackle of raw energy. It's the showy, crude weaponization of something sacred.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:28
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Zombies' Downfall posted:This makes no sense at all. What is the big difference in a Force-sensitive character "relying on his intuition" to accomplish an unbelievable, thought-impossible task and Rey (whose melee combat abilities are demonstrated with her staff earlier in the film) beating a half-dead idiot in a swordfight? It wasn't an impossible task. Luke said as much: quote:Wedge: That's impossible! Even for a computer. And despite all that, he still needed guidance from Ben. Plus he needed to be rescued by Han. Rey, on the other hand, was losing until she decided not to. I'm not saying she should've lost a hand or anything, it's just that her victory felt unearned.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:29
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hiddenriverninja posted:Re: light side/dark side chat Yeah but not in anything good. Heavy Metal posted:Including the prequels? I watched 3-6 recently, I could swear somebody talked about the force and made mention of the dark and the light. Maybe not though. Either way, I agree with the idea that this is a bit semantic, if you're not going to the dark side and you're on the other side of the spectrum, calling that light isn't bad. Before they just called it "good" I guess? Saying there's still good in Vader etc. Is "light" any less clear cut than saying "good"? Yeah I'm not sure what anyone's arguing about here. Obviously there's a light side and obviously dark/light are supposed to be good/evil. That's so basic.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:31
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PiedPiper posted:It wasn't an impossible task. Luke said as much: So did you miss the fact that the guy who is claiming it is impossible is a trained fighter pilot and the guy who isn't is an untrained farmboy? Luke saying that he used to be able to do it is not a sign that it isn't impossible. The fact that Luke considers it easy when Wedge doesn't says something and it isn't that Wedge is wrong.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:31
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Effectronica posted:Those are all character flaws because they lead her to make bad decisions, in the context of the film. How does trusting someone lead to a bad decision on Rey's part? How does wearing her heart on her sleeve lead to a bad decision? I'm genuinely curious. Heck, releasing the rathtars ultimately saves the day. At least, after she uses her amazing technical abilities to save Finn. Her blunder accidentally saves everyone. Even her mistakes are perfect!
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Dec 27, 2015 22:31
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Look, I loved the movie and I'm not saying it's thrash or anything. I just really hate that change and it's implications is all. And it is a change. I just posted quotes proving it and poo poo. It used to be The Force vs The Dark Side, with no light involved.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:33
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Verisimilidude posted:How does trusting someone lead to a bad decision on Rey's part? How does wearing her heart on her sleeve lead to a bad decision? I'm genuinely curious. Her wearing her heart on her sleeve leads to her failure to reach Ren at the end of the film- she gives into her righteous anger at his murdering, and a chasm opens up between them. Her lack of skepticism regarding Finn leads her to reject him at the bar. While this is quickly turned around, it also leads directly to her capture.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:34
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MonsieurChoc posted:Look, I loved the movie and I'm not saying it's thrash or anything. I just really hate that change and it's implications is all. Others posted some things disagreeing with your interpretation. But either way, aside from using terminology you aren't into, functionally how does this change anything? You say it makes things less interesting, how so? You still have either succumbing to the dark side or not. And being a jedi master who's zen and stuff is the other option. Same as ever. Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 22:35
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MonsieurChoc posted:Look, I loved the movie and I'm not saying it's thrash or anything. I just really hate that change and it's implications is all. Then the Original Trilogy is completely incoherent. It plain doesn't make any sense with the interpretation you had.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:35
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MonsieurChoc posted:Look, I loved the movie and I'm not saying it's thrash or anything. I just really hate that change and it's implications is all. No, it was the Way of the Jedi vs. The Dark Side of the Force. And "the light side" was totally implicit anyway. I'm the opposite of you, you're on the dark side, so what do you call me?
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Dec 27, 2015 22:36
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Box Office update: The Force Awakens is fastest movie to reach $1 billion http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=4137&p=.htm
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Dec 27, 2015 22:36
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Zombies' Downfall posted:This makes no sense at all. What is the big difference in a Force-sensitive character "relying on his intuition" to accomplish an unbelievable, thought-impossible task and Rey (whose melee combat abilities are demonstrated with her staff earlier in the film) beating a half-dead idiot in a swordfight? Demonstrated melee combat abilities with the staff - has trouble beating two random unarmed ruffians. That's quite a training montage missing somewhere in there, old Luke took better part of two movies to become good at the jedi stuff.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:38
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teagone posted:Box Office update: The Force Awakens is fastest movie to reach $1 billion http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=4137&p=.htm What the hell is "Daddy's Home" and why did it gross $38 million?
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Dec 27, 2015 22:38
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hiddenriverninja posted:Re: light side/dark side chat Yoda could reflect it back or make it explode, I don't think he ever generated it himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q turtlecrunch fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 22:39
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Pyromancer posted:Demonstrated melee combat abilities with the staff - has trouble beating two random unarmed ruffians. That's quite a training montage missing somewhere in there, old Luke took better part of two movies to become good at the jedi stuff. If by "having trouble" you mean "the film explicitly shows her effortlessly taking them down, leading Finn to stand there awkwardly because he was running over to help and she didn't need help." Also Luke literally never fought anyone with a Lightsaber before Empire Strikes Back and then never again before Return of the Jedi and despite never having any formal practice with his lightsaber bested Darth Vader in combat the second time.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:40
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Alfred P. Pseudonym posted:What the hell is "Daddy's Home" and why did it gross $38 million? Will Ferrel comedy, sorta looks like Stepbrothers but it's between a husband and his wife's ex husband (and father to the husband's step children).
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Dec 27, 2015 22:40
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Effectronica posted:Then the Original Trilogy is completely incoherent. It plain doesn't make any sense with the interpretation you had. How so? That's a bold claim.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:41
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TFA positions the character's abilities with a lightsaber as a direct outgrowth of their confidence and emotional state. Finn does pretty well until Stormtrooper with Laser Chainsaw, and then he's lacking in confidence for the rest of the film, leading to his defeat. Rey isn't confident with the lightsaber and is losing until she faces a choice between death and surrender- and chooses death, allowing her to overcome Ren, who also loses confidence at that point.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:42
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Alfred P. Pseudonym posted:What the hell is "Daddy's Home" and why did it gross $38 million? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOJUh7G-B8c
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Dec 27, 2015 22:42
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Pyromancer posted:Demonstrated melee combat abilities with the staff - has trouble beating two random unarmed ruffians. That's quite a training montage missing somewhere in there, old Luke took better part of two movies to become good at the jedi stuff. You managed to completely miss the joke of the scene was that Finn didn't have to save her, because she is competent.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:42
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ImpAtom posted:So did you miss the fact that the guy who is claiming it is impossible is a trained fighter pilot and the guy who isn't is an untrained farmboy? Wait, so you seriously think it was, in fact, impossible and the only reason Luke succeeded was because of magic? If so, you and I watched two different films. I think the message of that scene was "trust your instincts" not "abuse godmode".
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Dec 27, 2015 22:43
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PiedPiper posted:Wait, so you seriously think it was, in fact, impossible and the only reason Luke succeeded was because of magic? If so, you and I watched two different films. Okay. Why do you think Wedge, a trainer fighter pilot and member of the rebels, was wrong? Like I'm honestly curious here. The major point of the final shot is that Luke makes the shot only by turning off his computer and believing in the Force. If he could make the shot with the computer why does he need the Force? What is the entire point of him turning off his targeting computer and opening himself up to the Force if he could have made the shot without it? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 22:44
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