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Holy poo poo everybody is acting like a child while calling everybody else immature please just shut the gently caress up, I want to hear actually interesting stuff about the religion instead of just "this guy is a pedophile lol", and "you're all dumb my religion is awesome and flawless". The amun dude is not the relgion of Islam, he is just a dude getting overly defensive when people attack his beliefs/the mouthpiece of his beliefs in a way that is obviously hostile.  E: (and also him on a personal level I guess, which is, you know, understandable that he would not take well.)Where is the woman who had interesting things to say about having converted and dealing with physical handicaps while observing the religious obligations and stuff, can we go back to that? E2: I also like when amun talks about stuff that is not him getting defensive, he had some interesting points and he seems to have a more intense stance than some of the other muslims posting, and I like to hear about the law in practice vs. the law as written.  The announcement of ignore was just dumb though, don't let your ego get in the way like that man, just do the thing, don't announce it. That just pours more oil on.
surc fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 20:00
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This thread got real fun, real fast. Merry/Happy Christmas btw.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:44
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Yeah, I'm tuning out after the ignore drama. If someone has a question for a pretty moderate (I hate that term) American Muslim, PM me to check here and post. Happy New Year!
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Dec 27, 2015 22:47
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surc posted:Holy poo poo everybody is acting like a child while calling everybody else immature please just shut the gently caress up, I want to hear actually interesting stuff about the religion instead of just "this guy is a pedophile lol", and "you're all dumb my religion is awesome and flawless". The amun dude is not the relgion of Islam, he is just a dude getting overly defensive when people attack his beliefs/the mouthpiece of his beliefs in a way that is obviously hostile. I think if you look back on this thread, Im the last one to say my religion is flawless. In the last 2 pages, I offered up criticism of the hadith ffs and before that criticised my own community's reactions towards extremism. Im sure she tuned out the minute people started derailing the thread with vitriol, which is why I asked ppl to have some respect for the OP. I'd be more than happy to bring this thread back to that, hence purpose of ignore. Surc, Im not sure what you mean by the Law in practice versus the Law Written. Do you mean the "spirit of the Law versus the letter", like in the bible concept? 2 Corinthians 3:6 "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." NihilismNow posted:Typical "moderate" behaviour. Act all civilized until someone gets critical and then throw a fit. Criticism is fine, that we can discuss. Insults and diatribe is not. I dont have to read to that poo poo. Looking back on last 2 pages, I wasnt the one throwing any fit, calling anyone immature, paedo-*whatever*, etc Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 00:13
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I find the wiki article about the LGBT movement within Islam very interesting. Do "moderate" Muslims (presumably the type of Muslims posting here) generally have a negative opinion of homosexuality? On that note, I also recall an article about how Iran is apparently very cool with gender reassignment, which is quite interesting. Similarly, how widespread is acceptance of the science of evolution? I know some Christian religious denominations (e.g. Catholics) have made peace with it. What is the moderate Muslim view of evolution?
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Dec 28, 2015 02:58
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Lassitude posted:I find the wiki article about the LGBT movement within Islam very interesting. Do "moderate" Muslims (presumably the type of Muslims posting here) generally have a negative opinion of homosexuality? On that note, I also recall an article about how Iran is apparently very cool with gender reassignment, which is quite interesting. Science and evolution are pretty widely accepted within the context that Allah is responsible for creation. The only time we differ is in that the belief that although humans were made from the soil of the earth, Allah intended for us to live in Jennah (paradise) where there is no death or disease. We were sent to the earth and subject to death and disease as a species after the disobedience of Adam. As far as days to create the earth, we generally accept that it may have taken 4 billion years from the time of the birth of the galaxy etc, whatever science discovers because Allah is not bound by space and time like we are. Islam teaches us to explore and discover what he has created. I think most Muslims (imo) that I know (conservative and otherwise) dont have a negative opinion of LGBT people, however we would not accept that kind of lifestyle as compatible with Islamic teaching. I have homosexual acquaintances and my wife has friends. We treat them and their partners with kindness, dignity and respect that they deserve and don't ever make it an issue. Countries in Muslim majority populations that have actual laws against it may display attitudes differently since in their society (not just religion) it is unacceptable.
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Dec 28, 2015 04:37
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Fuzz posted:Yeah, I'm tuning out after the ignore drama. If someone has a question for a pretty moderate (I hate that term) American Muslim, PM me to check here and post. Amun Khonsu seems like a closet radical TBQH.
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Dec 28, 2015 05:36
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Amun Khonsu posted:My son was born into Islam. No child is born a Protestant, a Catholic, or a Muslim, for example. The parents automatically label the newborn (in some countries it's on ID cards) and then they soon indoctrinate their son or daughter in the religion (ideology). I think parents should let their children grow up to be adults, and then make there own decision about what, if any, religion they choose.
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Dec 28, 2015 06:55
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Lassitude posted:I find the wiki article about the LGBT movement within Islam very interesting. Do "moderate" Muslims (presumably the type of Muslims posting here) generally have a negative opinion of homosexuality? On that note, I also recall an article about how Iran is apparently very cool with gender reassignment, which is quite interesting. I think I mentioned something about homosexuality in an earlier post. It's okay to be gay in Islam, it's just not okay to have gay sex, or for two gay people to get married. In any case, every Muslim I know is pretty fine with gay people, with the exception of a couple of homophobes but it has nothing to do with religion, just their own personal opinion. And about Iran's gender reassignment: I'm not entirely sure, but I think they are very anti-gay there. So the government-sponsored gender reassignment they have might just be a way to 'fix' the 'gay problem'. I think it was Ahmadinejad who claimed that there were no gay people in Iran several years ago. Most Islamic scholars are cool of evolution, but in the 'God created these creatures to be able to adapt and evolve, because of course He did'. There's some disagreement on human evolution, however, as God 'created man to be perfect', so therefore there was no reason to have to evolve, so therefore no link to apes. Other than that Islam is pretty cool with science and its theories, because none of it honestly detracts from God and the religion. In fact, the whole science vs. religion debate is something that seriously confuses me about the West and you white people. Why are these two things mutually exclusive? Positive Optimyst posted:No child is born a Protestant, a Catholic, or a Muslim, for example. Everyone is born a Muslim, but not everyone is fortunate enough to have learned the truth. Someone mentioned this a page or two ago. While it is nice and happy to think that you could teach and expose your child to all the religions of the world and let them make an informed choice when they are an adult, no one has any time for that, not to learn about each religion with the respect it is due, to be able to truly understand and appreciate it. Also, as Muslims, we have the moral responsibility to educate our children in the religion. It's an impossible quandary for the faithful - if you truly believe, why would you ever want to give your child the option to choose damnation? There's enough temptation from the devil and the world around us, why are we giving this kid more rope to hang himself with? So I guess in this, we'd have to agree to disagree? You raise your kids the way you want to, I'll carry on not having any kids. Zakmonster fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 06:58
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i always liked the idea that the Quran was originally a bunch of orally transmitted stories among quasi-Jewish/generic Abrahamic Arabian tribesmen, which is why the Quran is so disjointed and confusing, and that Muhammed didn't actuallly exist and is fictional culture hero / patriarch for the Arabs made up after the conquests
icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 07:25
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Zakmonster posted:
Whatever gave you this idea? There is an old saying: "The Truth is what you belive."
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Dec 28, 2015 07:25
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Positive Optimyst posted:Whatever gave you this idea? God gave me that idea. And like I said, this is something we won't be able to agree on, so just let it go. Also, Lassitude gave a much better explanation for this a page ago. Lassitude posted:Muslims believe that everyone is by default born Muslim. They believe Islam is by default the religion of the human race, and anything else is a deviation from the correct path. So if you're born to Muslim parents, you are invariably Muslim yourself. And if you choose to reject that, you are put to death for apostasy (in nations where shari'a is enforced). Muslim children do not get to choose.
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Dec 28, 2015 07:38
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Positive Optimyst posted:No child is born a Protestant, a Catholic, or a Muslim, for example. Sounds good in theory, but just imagine that working out in a Christian family, let alone a Muslim one  We believe that everyone is born a "Muslim" (ie, believer), but the parents make them into something else (I think someone said that in this thread earlier). "The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)" So, as a Muslim I am obligated to keep him a Muslim and cultivate it in the best of ways but still allow him the freedom to learn about the other faiths that make up most of his friends. We visit many countries with many faiths and my son is well knowledgeable many faiths by now. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 09:01
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Zakmonster posted:In fact, the whole science vs. religion debate is something that seriously confuses me about the West and you white people. Why are these two things mutually exclusive? You answered this question in your previous paragraph: quote:There's some disagreement on human evolution, however, as God 'created man to be perfect', so therefore there was no reason to have to evolve, so therefore no link to apes. If you wish to chose religious 'fact' over scientific fact then that's your business, but don't pretend that there's no conflict of belief there or that you've been somehow gang-pressed into false dichotomies by 'white people'. Zakmonster posted:Everyone is born a Muslim, but not everyone is fortunate enough to have learned the truth. Someone mentioned this a page or two ago. Surely - surely - you could see how perverse this train of thought is if you would only think with a modicum of objectivity or empathy? Literally every religion could make an identical claim - all children are born Methodist, Daoist, Serbian Orthodox and so on, and they only choose a "wrong" religion later on. But where does that leave us? There is something extremely distasteful to me about labelling a child as belonging to some religion (particularly when the label is applied to apparently pre-conscious children), but at the same time I recognise that unfortunately that's how parenting has to work sometimes. Parents have the obligation to bring children up to be functional, moral members of society and that must include bringing them up inside particular cultural traditions (including religion). That's fine enough as it goes, but let's not insult each other's intelligence by pretending that MY IDEOLOGY is the default human belief, that literally every thinking person would believe in if only they hadn't been perverted along the way by the sick, mendacious doctrines of THEIR IDEOLOGY. quote:Also, as Muslims, we have the moral responsibility to educate our children in the religion. It's an impossible quandary for the faithful - if you truly believe, why would you ever want to give your child the option to choose damnation? There's enough temptation from the devil and the world around us, why are we giving this kid more rope to hang himself with? Fair enough, but what if the child repudiates Islam as they get older and are able to think for themselves? There was a great article I read recently about the great difficulties that atheists born into Muslim families face, and you can read it yourself here. The problem with "apostasy" isn't about violent wackos putting a fatwa on your head and hacking you to death on the street (though that is obviously also a problem), it's the complete ostracism one experiences from one's family and friends once one stops performing the salat or wearing the hijab. Please, put my mind at ease, and tell me - without any bullshit equivocation - that you think sentiments like this are appalling: quote:Vali has seen his mother just once for a few minutes four years ago. “She didn’t want to touch me,” he says. “She thought her God would be angry with her if she treated me kindly.” Blurred fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 12:02
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Blurred posted:You answered this question in your previous paragraph: I don't choose one over the other. I appreciate, understand, and accept both religious beliefs and scientific facts. Like I said, they are not mutually exclusive. And I also said that there was 'disagreement on human evolution' which meant that some scholars believed that yes, humans possibly did evolve from apes. Blurred posted:Surely - surely - you could see how perverse this train of thought is if you would only think with a modicum of objectivity or empathy? Literally every religion could make an identical claim - all children are born Methodist, Daoist, Serbian Orthodox and so on, and they only choose a "wrong" religion later on. But where does that leave us? It leaves us, hopefully, with the ability to understand and choose your own way of life when you hit your majority, and not knowing if we actually chose the 'correct' religion or not. What I believe to be Truth is my truth. It does not necessarily have to be yours. My belief that you chose the 'wrong truth' does not and should not really affect your life in any way, and none of us have any way of knowing, right now, which of us is truly correct. We can only have faith. Also, this is really no different from kids being brought up Hindu, or Buddhist, or Taoist, or Catholic. Plenty of those kids decide to stop being religious, just as plenty of Muslim kids decide to stop being Muslim. Everyone experiences doubt throughout their lives, wondering if their religion is actually the 'one true path' or not. Everyone has questioned. Everyone finds their own answers. Blurred posted:There is something extremely distasteful to me about labelling a child as belonging to some religion (particularly when the label is applied to apparently pre-conscious children), but at the same time I recognise that unfortunately that's how parenting has to work sometimes. Parents have the obligation to bring children up to be functional, moral members of society and that must include bringing them up inside particular cultural traditions (including religion). That's fine enough as it goes, but let's not insult each other's intelligence by pretending that MY IDEOLOGY is the default human belief, that literally every thinking person would believe in if only they hadn't been perverted along the way by the sick, mendacious doctrines of THEIR IDEOLOGY. Someone asked a question. It was answered. I'm sorry if the answer isn't to your liking, but you wanted to know more about this religion, not get sugarcoated replies. We believe that we are right, and you are wrong. I'm not pretending my ideology is the default human belief, I know so, because God said so in His book. You can believe otherwise. The world still turns and we're still just assholes on the Internet, and it's gonna be a long loving while before either of us figures out who's correct. Blurred posted:Fair enough, but what if the child repudiates Islam as they get older and are able to think for themselves? There was a great article I read recently about the great difficulties that atheists born into Muslim families, and you can read it yourself here. The problem with "apostasy" isn't about violent wackos putting a fatwa on your head and hacking you to death on the street (though that is obviously also a problem), it's the complete ostracism one experiences from one's family and friends once one stops performing the salat or wearing the hijab. Please, put my mind at ease, and tell me - without any bullshit equivocation - that you think sentiments like this are appalling: Killing apostates who no longer live in secular nations (and therefore not under jurisdiction of sharia law) is a crime. Yes, that should be stopped. If you live in a secular nation, you must follow the laws of the land, unless your government allows for special dispensation (like my government, which allows sharia law in matters of marriage, finance, medical, and family). If you live under sharia law, then you must follow sharia law. You can't pick and choose which laws you want to follow (actually you can, but then you have to live with the consequences if you get caught). And yes, that statement is appalling because that mother should really be using the opportunity to convince her son back into the religion. Also, the fact that the man left the religion is also appalling to me. But it's his choice, and more power to him. I can think he's stupid and misguided, and he can think I'm brainwashed and indoctrinated. The world continues to turn. Do I think that this attitude of ostracism needs to change? Of course. But first these immigrant Muslim communities need to stop being so insular and xenophobic, which creates a breeding ground for radicalization and extremism. This phenomenon isn't unique to Islam. Any insular culture which doesn't open it's doors to other cultures and ideologies will end up being backwards, archaic, and problematic. Happened to Japan, happened to China, happening to all sorts of immigrant cultures all over the world. I live in a country where the Muslim population is pretty progressive. We marry into and out of the religion, we ignore some of the rules if we want to (and pray for forgiveness later), and we don't ostracize people who left the religion (maybe your direct family might because they're angry/sad, but your friends will stick with you). What happens with Muslims in one part of the world doesn't necessarily mean its happening with Muslims everywhere. Culture, unfortunately, colors religion, and it's very rarely an improvement. Zakmonster fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 12:54
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Zakmonster posted:
Not mutually exclusive per se but sometimes incompatible and you gave a reason in your post
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Dec 28, 2015 15:35
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Can atheists posts in this thread or is that haram to the discussion? I see some people say something negative about Islam and they get mega dogpiled.
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Dec 28, 2015 15:51
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Jastiger posted:Can atheists posts in this thread or is that haram to the discussion? I see some people say something negative about Islam and they get mega dogpiled. if you have an sa account you can post itt
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Dec 28, 2015 15:54
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ashgromnies posted:Not mutually exclusive per se but sometimes incompatible and you gave a reason in your post You know what, you're right. I'm gonna look for other examples of scientific theories that are incompatible with Islam and see what the scholars have to say about it. We all know evolution is the popular go to theory, are there any others you guys can think of?
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Dec 28, 2015 16:02
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Jastiger posted:Can atheists posts in this thread or is that haram to the discussion? I see some people say something negative about Islam and they get mega dogpiled. Heh, fire away. Regarding your concern of the dogpiled, i heard somewhere... cant for the life of me think of where... but i know it is a common saying in America... "If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all."
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Dec 28, 2015 16:19
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Jastiger posted:Can atheists posts in this thread or is that haram to the discussion? I see some people say something negative about Islam and they get mega dogpiled. They got dogpiled because this thread isn't really about discussing whether Mohammed raped kids or how evil/stupid/whatever Muslims (all billion++ of them) are There's tons of Facebook groups for that these days
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Dec 28, 2015 16:26
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Krowley posted:They got dogpiled because this thread isn't really about discussing whether Mohammed raped kids or how evil/stupid/whatever Muslims (all billion++ of them) are Oh I'm not all on about that. I was just curious how we justify using an old school book to do terrible things, ya know? How does one convert to Islam in the year of the internet, the year of the atom, the year of philosophy 101 and comparative history?
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Dec 28, 2015 16:55
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Zakmonster posted:You know what, you're right. I'm gonna look for other examples of scientific theories that are incompatible with Islam and see what the scholars have to say about it. We all know evolution is the popular go to theory, are there any others you guys can think of? Among Christians, objections I've heard include: Age of the Earth/Universe being 6-12k years old Noah's flood literally covering the whole planet about 4k years ago wiping out everything not on the Arc Dinosaurs co-existed with humans (the flood is usually used to explain their extinction) Some who accept the old age of the Earth still believe in the order of creation as described in Genesis (eg flowering plants before insects) Humans used to live for centuries Geocentricism (ie the Earth literally being the centre of the universe) is a less common belief I've only seen on internet forums There's nothing in the Bible about climate change, but I don't think I've ever encountered a creationist who wasn't a denier. Not sure if it's because they tend to be politically rights wing or they've just got used to seeing science as the enemy. Is there anything similar in the Muslim world?
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Dec 28, 2015 16:59
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Jastiger posted:Oh I'm not all on about that. I converted to Islam in 1996. It wasnt out of some grand enlightenment or spiritual awakening. It was more because I studied the faith along with Christianity and Judaism. Unlike you, maybe you always were atheist, i dont know, i always had a natural inclination to believe in God. I just had not settled (at times i thought i had) on what religion, if any, best represented Him. Prior to converting it was important to me to address issues of religious violence, treatment of women and other issues and such. What I came to learn is that Muslims are ppl too, born with the same fallibility as everyone else and equally capable of misinterpreting and misusing religious texts for their own agendas. The Quran is just as subject to misinterpretation and misuse as any religious text since the human equation is involved. And in many cases, humans dont need religious texts to motivate themselves or others to violence. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 17:26
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Amun Khonsu posted:I converted to Islam in 1996. It wasnt out of some grand enlightenment or spiritual awakening. It was more because I studied the faith along with Christianity and Judaism. What did you convert from? How are you more predisposed to believe than others? Are you saying you're just a gullible person? If you care about social justice, why did you settle on one of the most regressive schools of thought?
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Dec 28, 2015 18:41
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I like Islam's explanation for Satan and Hell, among other things. There's a simple logic to it that Christianity (Catholicism particularly) never vibes with, for me. Judaism is the other one that resonated with me, but that's because Islam and Judaism are basically the same religion in more ways than not, which is why the animosity that exists in the last 100 or so years between the two religions is just really sad. As for Creationism vs Evolution, I've yet to meet a (normal, non-batshit) Imam that has said my take on things is necessarily wrong... I have yet to meet anyone that has my viewpoint, but whatever. I'm a physician and firmly believe in evolution, mind you, and I was pretty atheist for awhile in college and after until medical school, when I learned way more about biology than most and it pretty much reaffirmed my faith in at least some sort of higher power, so why not God?
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Dec 28, 2015 19:13
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Jastiger posted:What did you convert from? How are you more predisposed to believe than others? Are you saying you're just a gullible person? To argue rationally with Amun Khonsu is like trying to jerk off with sandpaper.
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Dec 28, 2015 19:49
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Hi there - having read this thread during last two days I've some questions. Phone posting so please excuse me for spelling. Some time ago a prominent imam (don't remember the name though) was speaking in polish tv, saying that muslims people responsibility is to convert others to Islam, as to prevent them from going to hell (I guess similar approach catholic priest are using with missions) which makes sense to me, however he added, forced conversion as such is admissible. I know that you folks don't agree with it and imams have opinions of their own, however, while in Catholicism, I guess, priests will get reprimanded for what they say/do, does it happen the same in Islam? Are there any occurences of an imam being stripped of his function? To be fair in catholicism, afaik, people get sent off to places far, far away, while still staying within the church (inluding for things like pedophilia - which happened in my paraphy as well). There was also a case of spanish gay priest who was thrown out of church afaik - any similar things? What happens if a person wants to leave Islam? If a person wants to research other religions, how should Muslim parent behave? In my perspective, my mom was a devote Catholic (she grew more "sane", and now questions what the church does, while still adhering to the rules), and while I don't really care about the religion, she doesn't force me to go to church. There's still the social stigma, of course. I've seen in TV articles about african women (again, don't remember in which country this happened) that were abducted from the school and married of to muslim men. How does such thing work? If she's muslim to begin with (I think they were) what is she to do in this situation? Is there an annullment of marriage of some sort in such case? I'm gay and was watching an episode about gay clubs in Egypt, where, as far as I know, being gay is punishable by prison. While in Christianity it's also considered a social stigma, I was wondering about why is it punishable in this way? I've seen you guys touching this subject, however I wanted to know more - as you said it is the matter of butt stuff; what if people don't do butt stuff? Are they protected in any way? How is it decided? Or is it more political (or should I say legal, even if it's a muslim country - so social) matter at this point that differs from country to country? What is the stance of in vitro in Islam? Recently it's become a vocal point in Poland (more of the nationalistic, than religious point of view), however I'd like to know your opinion on that matter. If genes were to be transplanted from a pig to other animal, would that animal be halal (I guess it's more of a question regarding technological advancements in touch with technology). It's an interesting topic (regarding all religions, to a certain degree) to me as we're changing the scriptures in a way - what part of pig contains the "pigness". On the other hand it doesn't really matter (or shouldn't) as you're making promise to your god to not eat certain food irregarless of chemical compositions. Like - I guess non-alcoholic beer should still be considered off limits for those people that consider them as alcohol; all in the eye of beholder. I must say that working with muslims gave me an image that people are the same everywhere - my boss is muslim, and it doesn't really show (I've not seen him pray daily, however he does respect fast during Ramadan, and he doesn't drink alcohol at all) His wife can tell him off, and I don't really see a difference in which he treats her than my Christian brother treats his wife. I've got muslim, pakistani coworkers on FB, and the geeky stuff they post is no different to what or my english folks post. It was also weird to me that in Karachi they would have such internal fights that result in car bombings (to such degree that for example they have to have a generator in the building as electricity flow is disrupted). So, yeah... (although I've met people that will use the umbrella of their religion to accuse you of certain things as well) - just people like there are everywhere.
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Dec 28, 2015 22:56
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canis minor posted:Hi there - having read this thread during last two days I've some questions. Phone posting so please excuse me for spelling. Imams aren't really appointed by a central religious authority. They're basically a person who went to school for many years and learned more about the religion than the average Hasan. However, they can be blacklisted socially, for any number of reasons. Over in Singapore, those reasons are usually political (religious school politics, not secular government politics), or it is discovered that said imam is deliberately misleading people towards a more harmful facet of the religion, or said imam is exploiting his students. What the imam does in his personal life (sexual orientation, number of wives, flashiness of his car) is sometimes subject to gossip, but never really a factor in whether he gets to be an imam or not. canis minor posted:What happens if a person wants to leave Islam? If a person wants to research other religions, how should Muslim parent behave? In my perspective, my mom was a devote Catholic (she grew more "sane", and now questions what the church does, while still adhering to the rules), and while I don't really care about the religion, she doesn't force me to go to church. There's still the social stigma, of course. As far as I understand it, if a person leaves Islam, his family and friends are to spend the next 3 days encouraging him not to. This means engaging in discourse and trying to alleviate his doubts and fears, not threatening his life. Assuming said person actually does leave the religion, then good on him, I guess. The whole bit about ostracism and execution is really supposed to be for people who actively try to tear down Islam, and even the providence of that law is murky. It's not something I agree with, but then again, I don't have to agree with it. But yeah, even in a more progressive nation like mine, there is still a social stigma to leaving Islam, although the treatment you might receive will vary from person to person. canis minor posted:I've seen in TV articles about african women (again, don't remember in which country this happened) that were abducted from the school and married of to muslim men. How does such thing work? If she's muslim to begin with (I think they were) what is she to do in this situation? Is there an annullment of marriage of some sort in such case? That's a crime, even in the religious sense. Both parties must be agreeable to marriage before it can legally happen. And yes, she can get the marriage annulled in court, but it generally depends on the laws of the land. In a typical marriage, a woman can initiate divorce on the same grounds a man could initiate divorce. If the laws/culture of the woman's country implicitly allow for forced marriages such as you described, the woman is sunk. Nothing to do with religion, just assholes being assholes. canis minor posted:I'm gay and was watching an episode about gay clubs in Egypt, where, as far as I know, being gay is punishable by prison. While in Christianity it's also considered a social stigma, I was wondering about why is it punishable in this way? I've seen you guys touching this subject, however I wanted to know more - as you said it is the matter of butt stuff; what if people don't do butt stuff? Are they protected in any way? How is it decided? Or is it more political (or should I say legal, even if it's a muslim country - so social) matter at this point that differs from country to country? They are protected in the same way everyone else is protected. Technically speaking, two men doing butt stuff are indulging in zina - premarital/extramarital sex. For them to be accused and punished of zina, they must have been witnessed in the act by no less then 4 persons of unquestionable judgment and character. So um, yeah. Unless they're putting on live sex shows, it's a bit hard. However, it's really more of a social/cultural thing. I honestly don't know how it works in another country, considering that Singapore still hasn't decriminalized homosexuality (but they don't go out of their way to arrest the gays or anything, its just a holdover from more archaic days). canis minor posted:What is the stance of in vitro in Islam? Recently it's become a vocal point in Poland (more of the nationalistic, than religious point of view), however I'd like to know your opinion on that matter. If genes were to be transplanted from a pig to other animal, would that animal be halal (I guess it's more of a question regarding technological advancements in touch with technology). It's an interesting topic (regarding all religions, to a certain degree) to me as we're changing the scriptures in a way - what part of pig contains the "pigness". On the other hand it doesn't really matter (or shouldn't) as you're making promise to your god to not eat certain food irregarless of chemical compositions. Like - I guess non-alcoholic beer should still be considered off limits for those people that consider them as alcohol; all in the eye of beholder. I think you just answered your own question. There's so much stuff for us to eat, anyway, there's no reason to dive into murky waters just so we can have questionable bacon.
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Dec 28, 2015 23:45
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canis minor posted:I must say that working with muslims gave me an image that people are the same everywhere - my boss is muslim, and it doesn't really show (I've not seen him pray daily, however he does respect fast during Ramadan, and he doesn't drink alcohol at all) His wife can tell him off, and I don't really see a difference in which he treats her than my Christian brother treats his wife. I've got muslim, pakistani coworkers on FB, and the geeky stuff they post is no different to what or my english folks post. It was also weird to me that in Karachi they would have such internal fights that result in car bombings (to such degree that for example they have to have a generator in the building as electricity flow is disrupted). So, yeah... (although I've met people that will use the umbrella of their religion to accuse you of certain things as well) - just people like there are everywhere.
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Dec 28, 2015 23:52
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bitterandtwisted posted:Among Christians, objections I've heard include: The Earth is definitely older than that, and humans did not coexist with dinosaurs. The flood thing might just be a parable, or just an metaphor for one of those extinction-level events that did wipe out a significant chunk of the human race, many millennia ago. And yes, we do believe that some humans (like Moses) lived for centuries, but then again, it might be a weird quirk of translation, or a cultural story that somehow became a truth. In any case, we know that we can't live for more than 1 century, if we're lucky. As for climate change, apparently there was a thing that happened a few months ago: http://islamicclimatedeclaration.org/islamic-declaration-on-global-climate-change/ Basically a bunch of Muslim scientists and religious figures coming together to declare that climate change is a thing and its our fault and we need to fix it.
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Dec 29, 2015 00:00
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Zakmonster posted:humans did not coexist with dinosaurs 
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Dec 29, 2015 00:06
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Jastiger posted:What did you convert from? How are you more predisposed to believe than others? Are you saying you're just a gullible person? I would not say gullible, but normal. I think it is scientifically accepted that the brain of our species is wired to believe in God and polls show that most people do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism Couple this with the fact that if I was gullible, I would have taken the Church's word for it and not wasted 4 years in intensive personal study of religion to resolve my questions. I was born into Roman Catholicism, raised Catholic until age 14 when my mother changed my religion to a Evangelical/Pentecostal non-denominational church. IMO, people who study Islam and sort out the western social diatribe, cultural baggage of Muslim countries, and religious dogma from developing world scholars, he/she will come to the conclusion that Islam is a progressive Social Justice movement for its time and intended to evolve as a progressive social justice movement over time. It is not the most regressive schools of thought if compared to other religions and their histories.
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Dec 29, 2015 01:35
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Amun Khonsu posted:I would not say gullible, but normal. I think it is scientifically accepted that the brain of our species is wired to believe in God and polls show that most people do.
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Dec 29, 2015 01:46
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Amun Khonsu posted:I would not say gullible, but normal. I think it is scientifically accepted that the brain of our species is wired to believe in God and polls show that most people do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism Couple this with the fact that if I was gullible, I would have taken the Church's word for it and not wasted 4 years in intensive personal study of religion to resolve my questions. A religion founded on war and plunder is not "progressive" nor illustrates "social justice" in any way shape or form. Muhammad's views on women, homosexuals, and nonbelievers in the Koran attests to this. If your religion motivates you to get out of bed in the morning to pursue meaning & happiness, then I'm all for it. However, don't just blatantly make poo poo up or indulge in historical revisionism.
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Dec 29, 2015 01:53
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Cingulate posted:Most cultures and most people do not believe "in God". They're animists or polytheists. i would not classify it any differently. A great spirit, something unseen but greater than self, etc. All part of the God part of our brains. We are wired for belief in a God of some kind.
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Dec 29, 2015 02:16
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Amun Khonsu posted:I would not say gullible, but normal. I think it is scientifically accepted that the brain of our species is wired to believe in God and polls show that most people do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism Couple this with the fact that if I was gullible, I would have taken the Church's word for it and not wasted 4 years in intensive personal study of religion to resolve my questions. Wow you are good at making up poo poo. While its true people are more than ready to ascribe intent to things that happen to them, its the culture that shapes HOW it manifests. Most folks grow out of it and figure out that some 0things don't work out. It takes the truly gullible and ignorant to actually seek out new ways to convince themselves that magic is real.
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Dec 29, 2015 02:47
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Amun Khonsu posted:i would not classify it any differently. A great spirit, something unseen but greater than self, etc. All part of the God part of our brains. We are wired for belief in a God of some kind. Immortan posted:A religion founded on war and plunder is not "progressive" nor illustrates "social justice" in any way shape or form. Muhammad's views on women, homosexuals, and nonbelievers in the Koran attests to this. If your religion motivates you to get out of bed in the morning to pursue meaning & happiness, then I'm all for it. However, don't just blatantly make poo poo up or indulge in historical revisionism.
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Dec 29, 2015 02:49
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Immortan posted:A religion founded on war and plunder is not "progressive" nor illustrates "social justice" in any way shape or form. Muhammad's views on women, homosexuals, and nonbelievers in the Koran attests to this. If your religion motivates you to get out of bed in the morning to pursue meaning & happiness, then I'm all for it. However, don't just blatantly make poo poo up or indulge in historical revisionism. You have a slim chance, but if you continue posting in this vein, I think you can convince Amun Khonsu to renounce Islam and join the ranks of the enlightened. Keep us updated on your progress.
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Dec 29, 2015 03:13
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Cingulate posted:Putting polytheism into the same category as the religion defined by nothing more than Tawhid in the very thread about Islam is a bit, I don't know ... naive? Not at all. Im not talking about Islamic Tawheed or any one God or religion. Im talking about our natural inclination to believe in a being greater than us that is unseen quantified by scientific thought and research on the brain. I was talking specifically to my experience which i was asked about.
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Dec 29, 2015 03:32
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